Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

  • Looking to grow in the word of God more?

    See our Bible Studies and Devotionals sections in Christian Growth

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

  • Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?

    Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15

    https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/

MATT 2:34 "This generation will not pass away" ... What did Jesus mean?

Persecution neither means end times nor His coming. What makes you think that Chapter 10 refers to end times? He simply points out there will be persecution, prepares them for the ministry and sends them in Matthew chapter 10 and chapter 11:1 confirms it.

The end times is on chapter 24.

I posted this before edited reba, so let me post it again!

Christ told the disciples the same thing in Matthew 10:23 that He told them in Matthew 24:9!

"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:21-23 (NASB)

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Matthew 24:9-10 (NASB)

"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. Matthew 24:11-13 (NASB)

He is talking about the end here in both passages!!! He is talking about His second coming IN BOTH PASSAGES!!! Do you honestly not see this or are you so desperate to believe a lie that you're willing to rewrite the Bible to suit your own ends?!?!?

Unbelievable!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The return of Christ has always been a futurist teaching.
It was future to Christ and all the apostles. It's been history for almost 2,000 years. No other view harmonizes all of Christ's words and the apostolic writings with the known facts of history. None.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I posted this before and you completely ignored it, so let me post it again!

Christ told the disciples the same thing in Matthew 10:23 that He told them in Matthew 24:9!

"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:21-23 (NASB)

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Matthew 24:9-10 (NASB)

"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. Matthew 24:11-13 (NASB)

He is talking about the end here in both passages!!! He is talking about His second coming IN BOTH PASSAGES!!! Do you honestly not see this or are you so desperate to believe a lie that you're willing to rewrite the Bible to suit your own ends?!?!?

Unbelievable!

No I did not ignore it. What Christ said was, as I previously stated, preparing and instructing His disciples for persecutions, not specifically about end times

If Matthew 10:21-23 is for 70 AD which was already over, then why is it happening now? Was 70 AD with death of nearly a million more severe than holocaust death of 60 million? Also, neither 70 AD nor holocaust was anything close to tribulation for they were not for the sake of Christ nor the Jews/Christians were killed for His sake and His Word.

All throughout for 2 millenniums, Matthew 10:21-23 holds true regarding persecutions which is even happening in closed countries.

(Mark 13:19-20) "For [in] those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

FYI, tribulation is NOT war but suffering for Christ! Is flesh refers to only Jewish flesh?

(Mark 13:22) "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Which false prophet and false Christ came in 70 AD ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
What is unbelievable is that you would actually try to convince people that the "end" has come and gone.

edited reba

JLB
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Which false prophet and false Christ came in 70 AD ?

From Scripture....

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
 
From Scripture....

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Antichrist is different from false christs.

An antichrist is against Christ. He denies the Father and the Son. e.g. Muslims, Cults etc

(1John 2:22) Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

However, false Christs are people who claim they are the Christ. False Christs don't deny the Son, but they deceive many claiming themselves as Jesus Christ.
 
No I did not ignore it. What Christ said was, as I previously stated, preparing and instructing His disciples for persecutions, not specifically about end times

If Matthew 10:21-23 is for 70 AD which was already over, then why is it happening now? Was 70 AD with death of nearly a million more severe than holocaust death of 60 million? Also, neither 70 AD nor holocaust was anything close to tribulation for they were not for the sake of Christ nor the Jews/Christians were killed for His sake and His Word.

All throughout for 2 millenniums, Matthew 10:21-23 holds true regarding persecutions which is even happening in closed countries.

(Mark 13:19-20) "For [in] those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

FYI, tribulation is NOT war but suffering for Christ! Is flesh refers to only Jewish flesh?

(Mark 13:22) "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Which false prophet and false Christ came in 70 AD ?


We're done.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What is unbelievable is that you would actually try to convince people that the "end" has come and gone.
edited reba
JLB

As you have no idea what "the end" meant to Christ, His apostles, and every first century Jew living at that time, you will remain ignorant of the words He spoke, which is why you cannot address these but persist in denigrating my character.

edited reba
And with that, we're done, too.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Absolutely nothing you write makes sense.

We're done.

I just can't believe how stubborn are you in saying the end has come inspite of Scripture against it.


(Dan 12:1-4) "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

About the time when tribulation is near, i.e, at the time of the end, knowledge shall increase.

May be Josephus forgot to write the great scientific inventions of Jews in 70 AD :lol.
 
Again, any doctrine that does not harmonize with the expressed, written words of Christ and the apostles, is heresy regardless of what the church has taught through the years.

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (ESV)

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34 (ESV)

Therefore you [the disciples He was addressing on the Mount of Olives!] also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Matthew 24:44 (ESV)

Jesus said to *Caiaphas, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.Matthew 26:64 (ESV)

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

"These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. "These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. "But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you. John 16:1-4 (NASB)

the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' Acts 17:30-31 (YLT)

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

so that you [Corinthians!] are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NASB)

But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:4-5 (NASB)

For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you [Thessalonians] turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (NASB)

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you [Thessalonians], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NASB)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13 (NASB)

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (ESV)

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

~'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. Revelation 2:16 (NASB)

~'Nevertheless what you [Thyatira] have, hold fast until I come. Revelation 2:25 (NASB)

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:6-7 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Jesus said He would return while some of them still lived and they passed on that belief in the letters they wrote. Their belief in His imminent return was pervasive and overwhelming. If Jesus Christ did not come as He promised them, then He lied to them and they - in turn - have lied to us.

If Futurism is true, Jesus Christ and His apostles lied.

edited reba
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Stormcrow,

Are you a Eliza bot or Siri 2 by any chance? You seem to post entirely unrelated when you are not able to answer the questions. Please address the previous posts verse by verse and go one by one.
 
I just can't believe how stubborn are you in saying the end has come inspite of Scripture against it.


(Dan 12:1-4) "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

About the time when tribulation is near, i.e, at the time of the end, knowledge shall increase.

May be Josephus forgot to write the great scientific inventions of Jews in 70 AD :lol.

Hosea 4
[6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: [[because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,]]..'

I find it hard to understand Rom. 8:14's LEADING of some, and then we find that Matt. 24:21 on has prophetic verses for all of these others! It is still hard for me to find one believing as some of these teach in these following verses. It just seems tooo far fetched!

--Elijah
 
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Anyone who teaches the above mentioned scripture happened in 70 AD is teaching lies and heresy!

...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


If that happened in 70 AD, Jesus would have wiped out the entire Roman army!

Those upon whom God took vengeance in 70 AD were the Jews massed together and besieged within Jerusalem's walls! He told them His vengeance would befall them in Matthew 23 and in Revelation 18, especially verse 8!

Christ returned in judgment upon His enemies (making them His footstool) in 70 AD! His second coming was all about judging Israel and taking the kingdom of God away from them!

edited reba
If you don't believe Christ, why do you follow Him? edited rebaAgain, Futurism produces false teachers and false prophets (Jim Bakker, Harold Camping, Jim Jones, David Koresh, et al) who lead those in the church astray and give Christianity a bad name. Why anyone would continue to believe such unholy rubbish is beyond me. It's not just un-Biblical, it's anti-Biblical!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
And the detractors here still have no answer or doctrine for all these verses:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41784&p=669903&viewfull=1#post669903

I would respect them if they simply said, "Ummm...I don't know." Instead, they froth at the mouth while frantically typing "heresy" every chance they get, always trying to tear down the people with whom they disagree.

With all do respect, I challenged many of the positions of your doctrine. In fact, You still haven't provided sufficient evidence for the 6th trumpet (3rd of mankind will perish). I also thought that we established that no one knows the time of the 2nd coming but god himself? So then, if that is true, then what happens to the quotes from christ himself? Truly, he can't contradict himself. If christ himself doesn't know when the 2nd coming will be, then why tell the apostles he does? That's because he wasn't speaking of the 2nd coming, he couldn't have been because he didn't know.

What about the information that you can't prove? Or the information that contradicts itself? Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you necessarily, but the doctrine itself. As a matter of fact, there is no man on this planet that can prove the doctrine to be fact, because there are too many historical holes. God's word is really clear, isn't it? I mean, he did form the greatest book on earth (the bible). Since the bible was created by God, then why does Revelations still speak of the 2nd coming as something that has yet to happen (Future)? Why create a clear document, yet force your followers to be mislead by the very document you created? Does that make sense? No, neither does the doctrine, historically or logically.

You arguing for your doctrine proves my point even more. Because there would be no argument among Christians if it were truly fact. We would have the information required because God would provide it.

I honestly believe these preterist argument threads should be closed. They have reached a head here. The same things are being argued over and over again, and we reach the same conclusion. No one on this planet can prove it true. Until that point, what are we doing here?
 
...the detractors here still have no answer or doctrine for all these verses...

Are there any thoughts on the closing verses of Daniel chapter 11:40-45?

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also on the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.” (AKJV)

Is this time of the end in 70 AD? Who is it talking about? I would appreciate your thoughts from a Preterist and Futurist perspective. Do your beliefs from either camp have an explanation for these verses? I understand if you say:

"Ummm...I don't know."
 
Are there any thoughts on the closing verses of Daniel chapter 11:40-45?

Daniel 11:40 “And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also on the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.†(AKJV)

Is this time of the end in 70 AD? Who is it talking about? I would appreciate your thoughts from a Preterist and Futurist perspective. Do your beliefs from either camp have an explanation for these verses? I understand if you say:

These preceding verses are what Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians was referring to:

2 Thessalonians 2:4,8
and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Daniel 11:35-36

35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.


36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.


exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped,- 2Thessalonian 2

he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, Dan 11:36


JLB
 
These preceding verses are what Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians was referring to...

Thanks JLB,

So you have made this association with Thessalonians, which I think is a natural association. This King of the North, according to Paul, was still a futuristic event which placed the Day of Christ after the “falling away," and after the revealing of the “man of sin”, etc.

I am not familiar with any great “falling away” that occurred in the 10 years between Thessalonians and Nero (who I assume Preterists call “the man of sin”). All of the events of Daniel 11:40-45 would also need to have taken place within those 10 years, which I doubt that history could account for a fraction of those verses. When were Egypt, Libya and Ethiopia attacked in those 10 years? What tidings of the East and North troubled him, and who was “him”. What tabernacle was established? Nero was dead by the time Titus set up camp in Tiberius. Titus was victorious… he didn’t come to his end… History demonstrates the opposite events surrounding 70 AD!

How do you account for these verses, Scarecrow? You said:

“...the detractors here still have no answer… for all these verses...”

Well, what is your answer? I would love to know.
 
Back
Top