Matt 23:1-3 question

[Paul Timothy]

If that were true it would say
Born of water born again of the spirit
But it don’t, it say born again by both and “water AND the spirit!

Thanks

Now read John 3:6. That explains the previous verse further... or is context a bad word?

Remember where John wrote what Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery.... "Go, and sin..."?

Sometimes we have to read a bit further to get the full picture.

 

[donadams]

We live in America and speak English. It's fine for that of a whole congregation to understand what language is spoken for how else would they know what they are being taught. OK moving on just my

The sermon and scripture reading is in english
The liturgy is Latin and greek
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Let's not put down those with mental handicaps they are not called retards.

You right
I consider them immaculate saints washed in the blood of Christ thru baptism
I realize there are lot of old words we are used to saying that are not kosher with modern man

 

[donadams]

It's no use posting knowledge if nobody reads it.
I've also said that your posts are too long, hoping to help you when you first joined.
It's just helpful advice.

What is person yo do, these are large subjects with many scripture references
There are hundreds of other references I avoided
Thanks

 

[donadams]

First the length is a violation of the ToS 2.6 Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info.

Second it is a waste of your time to make such lengthy post as no one is going to read through them. For a better discussion please keep them shorter to make your point.

Yes sir!

 

[donadams]

But that is not what John 3:5-6 is talking about.

Is it just because the verses contain the word water that gets you thinking down this track?

I spelled out how the verses work together to back my position... please do likewise. Using John 3 only please. That is the only passage we are talking about.

Any more verses or ECCF that supports your understanding?

 

[donadams]

Now read John 3:6. That explains the previous verse further... or is context a bad word?

Remember where John wrote what Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery.... "Go, and sin..."?

Sometimes we have to read a bit further to get the full picture.

John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

All one verse?

 

[GodsGrace]

Eucharist is the New Testament in His blood but without baptism (initiation) you have no union and cannot partake of the Eucharistic communion
Thanks.

Don,
We're in the CATHOLICISM FORUM...
Instead of just throwing phrases out there that Protestants do not understand,
why not try to educate instead?

You say we need to be initiated into the Christian faith.

So what does that mean?
Are there sacraments for this initiation?
What are they?

What are the other sacraments called?

 

[Paul Timothy]

John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

All one verse?

You do know that verses are artificial and not part of the original text.

So now you think context is important?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Any more verses or ECCF that supports your understanding?

Well the entire John 3 conversation is supports my understanding but I was starting with just the next verse.

What is an ECCF?

 

[GodsGrace]

What is person yo do, these are large subjects with many scripture references
There are hundreds of other references I avoided
Thanks

If you want to know what I think,
I think it's best to post 2 or 3 verses at the most.
Two should be fine to prove any point.
I've posted a whole page of verses, but for a very specific reason and this has happened only 2 or 3 times in many years.
However, you're free to do as you wish.

 

[donadams]

Don,
We're in the CATHOLICISM FORUM...
Instead of just throwing phrases out there that Protestants do not understand,
why not try to educate instead?

You say we need to be initiated into the Christian faith.

So what does that mean?
Are there sacraments for this initiation?
What are they?

What are the other sacraments called?

Initiation sacrament is baptismal regeneration

Sacramental life of the Christian church: I come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Jn 10:10 Jn 1:16-17

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 8:36
1 Corinthians 12:13 2 pet 1:11
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Eucharist: (holy communion)
Mt 26:26-39 Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 11:23-25

Confession of sins:
Jn 20:23 / 1 Jn 1:9 / 2 cor 5:18

Confirmation
Lk 22:32 acts 8:14-17
acts 14:22

Marriage:
Matt 19:4-6

Holy orders: (priesthood)
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru His priesthood in Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 10:1-8 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 acts 1:17 acts 6:4 acts 8:26
2 Cor 5:18 1 Tim 4:14 Eph 2:20

Extreme unction: (anointing with oil)
1 Tim 4:14 James 5:14

 

[donadams]

You do know that verses are artificial and not part of the original text.

So now you think context is important?

Yes in one verse but not a whole chapter

 

[donadams]

Well the entire John 3 conversation is supports my understanding but I was starting with just the next verse.

What is an ECCF?

Early Catholic Church fathers

Vs 22 don’t it says baptism

Jn 1,2,3,4 baptismal regeneration

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

(Key verse! Actions speak louder than words: verse 22)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

Thanks

 

[Paul Timothy]

Early Catholic Church fathers

Vs 22 don’t it says baptism

As a separate event.
Not part of the John 3:1-21 is Jesus speaking with Nicodemus.
John 3:22 starts a new event in Jesus ministry.
So there is no connection in the teaching from v1-21 and v22 on.

Jn 1,2,3,4 baptismal regeneration

Baptism is not mentioned at all in verses 1-4.
So your idea that this passage is about baptism is a fantasy.

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

Different event.

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

Different event with no reference to baptism. Other that your invented connection.

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

Not baptism. Is every reference to water a baptism reference for you?

(Key verse! Actions speak louder than words: verse 22)

"After these things" shows that verse 22 starts an entirely new event.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

Thanks

You really have trouble separating the Scriptural text from your own theologies.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Yes in one verse but not a whole chapter

So the artificial construct of verse you will respect.
Chapter constructs you will throw out?
Where is the line... Remember that even punctuation is an addition to the Greek.
How many verses does context matter for?
Does context only apply to the single verse(artificial idea) or across many verses(an actual conversation length)?

Your theology does not seem to be consistent.
Or it is very consistent by throwing out anything that contradicts your preconceived bias.

 

[donadams]

If you want to know what I think,
I think it's best to post 2 or 3 verses at the most.
Two should be fine to prove any point.
I've posted a whole page of verses, but for a very specific reason and this has happened only 2 or 3 times in many years.
However, you're free to do as you wish.

You right

 

[GodsGrace]

Initiation sacrament is baptismal regeneration

Sacramental life of the Christian church: I come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Jn 10:10 Jn 1:16-17

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 8:36
1 Corinthians 12:13 2 pet 1:11
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Eucharist: (holy communion)
Mt 26:26-39 Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 11:23-25

Confession of sins:
Jn 20:23 / 1 Jn 1:9 / 2 cor 5:18

Confirmation
Lk 22:32 acts 8:14-17
acts 14:22

Marriage:
Matt 19:4-6

Holy orders: (priesthood)
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru His priesthood in Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 10:1-8 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 acts 1:17 acts 6:4 acts 8:26
2 Cor 5:18 1 Tim 4:14 Eph 2:20

Extreme unction: (anointing with oil)
1 Tim 4:14 James 5:14

I'm going to answer this in a thread.

Maybe we should just start threads and try to understand each other...

 

[GodsGrace]

Initiation sacrament is baptismal regeneration

Sacramental life of the Christian church: I come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Jn 10:10 Jn 1:16-17

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 8:36
1 Corinthians 12:13 2 pet 1:11
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Eucharist: (holy communion)
Mt 26:26-39 Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 11:23-25

Confession of sins:
Jn 20:23 / 1 Jn 1:9 / 2 cor 5:18

Confirmation
Lk 22:32 acts 8:14-17
acts 14:22

Marriage:
Matt 19:4-6

Holy orders: (priesthood)
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru His priesthood in Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 10:1-8 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 acts 1:17 acts 6:4 acts 8:26
2 Cor 5:18 1 Tim 4:14 Eph 2:20

Extreme unction: (anointing with oil)
1 Tim 4:14 James 5:14

Don, I decided not to start a new thread since it would just copy this one.

So, I'll answer the above.

Your statement was that there is an initiation into the CC.
If no one had ever heard this before, they'd think of an initiation, like joining a club, or something like that.

So let's talk about the Sacraments of the CC.
A sacrament is a visible sign of the love God has for us and of the grace He showers on us.
Every sacrament has a formula and a sign.

There are 3 types of sacraments:
Initiation --- These invite the Christian person into the faith of Christianity, as Jesus commanded.
Healing --- The healing can be spiritual or physical. The NT writers told us to call the Elders.
Service --- These are sacraments that call for service from the believer. We are told to continue in our good deeds.

You're talking here about the Sacraments of Initiation, which are:
BAPTISM ...... welcomes
CONFIRMATION ..... seals
EUCHARIST ..... nourishes

 

[donadams]

As a separate event.
Not part of the John 3:1-21 is Jesus speaking with Nicodemus.
John 3:22 starts a new event in Jesus ministry.
So there is no connection in the teaching from v1-21 and v22 on.

Baptism is not mentioned at all in verses 1-4.
So your idea that this passage is about baptism is a fantasy.

Different event.

Different event with no reference to baptism. Other that your invented connection.

Not baptism. Is every reference to water a baptism reference for you?

"After these things" shows that verse 22 starts an entirely new event.

You really have trouble separating the Scriptural text from your own theologies.

There many more verses you reject them as well?
Mk 16:16
Matt 28:19
Acts 2:38
Acts 22/16
1 cor 12:1
Gal 3:21
Titus 3:5
1 pet 3:20-21