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Matt 23:1-3 question

for_his_glory said:
If you want to ignore exactly what was written in those scriptures I gave about the blood of Jesus that washes away our sins then go right ahead and use your logic as I believe the word of God, not man's logic.

We already know how you feel abut Protestants, but guess what, it's only those who are Spiritually born again from above, indwelled with the Holy Spirit that are God's own by faith in Christ. It's not about being a Catholic or a Protestant or any other religion. Look at the Pharisees, do you really believe they will not be judged and condemned.
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The blood “merits” or “graces” do wash away all sin in baptismal regeneration acts 22:16
 
donadams said:
The blood “merits” or “graces” do wash away all sin in baptismal regeneration acts 22:16
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If you want to refute those scriptures I gave about it all being about the blood of Jesus that washes away our sin, then feel free to believe it is done by immersion in water as I will no longer debate this with you.
 
Moving this thread over to the Catholic forum. donadams, in the future make your threads in the Catholic forum if the thread is about what Catholics teach. Thank you.
 
for_his_glory said:
donadams since you want to make this thread about baptism then here is my whole study I wrote on this subject.

Lev 16:23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
Lev 16:24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

The Mikveh (meaning a collection of water) in the OT was a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion. Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occurred. In Priestly law, the ultimate purpose of ritual purification was to protect God's sanctuary, the tabernacle, from contamination, Leviticus chapter 15.

The Mikveh, being a shadow of John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (IE. Baptism of Christ) was for purification, not for remission of sin, like that of what Esaias prophesied saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, Isaiah 40:3. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins, Matthew 3:1-6. John said, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.


Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching what God gave Him to speak and do. It was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3, but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for repentance or the remission of sin, but had to associate with humanity in order to fulfill prophecy.
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Is baptism required for initiation into the new covenant and salvation or is it meaningless
Thanks
 
donadams said:
Is baptism required for initiation into the new covenant and salvation or is it meaningless
Thanks
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What do you mean by "initiation" into the new covenant, it's not a club and you have to pass a test.

When you understand John's baptism that is different then the Baptism of Christ for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit then we can discuss this. I gave my study in post #308.
 
for_his_glory said:
Hey, it was you that said we have to do penance and that is what I gave the definition of penance.

What did the Catholic Church do before 1949 without the RSV. Oh that's right as mass was always done in Latin so no one could understand what the Priest was saying.
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Ignorance
Latin vulgate
Root is vulgar not meaning rude but common ordinary
It was the common language of Rome when the church founded by christ conquered it
Mass Latin is east to understand
Since English is one third Latin
Cum grano solis
Take it with a grain of salt
not difficult
Introibo ad altare Dei.
Can you translate
thanks
 
for_his_glory said:
Can you explain what you mean by this and also give scripture.
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Acts 22:16

The infinite merits of Christ’s blood sacrifice applied to our souls as grace in the Christian sacrament (fruit of the sacrifice) of baptismal regeneration (new creation)

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!


Thanks
 
Iconoclast said:
You have swallowed the RC. Koolaid and are not able to consider anything from the bible correctly. You post long rants of fragmented scriptures and no one even looks at them as you do not respond biblically.
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Where does the Bible support the doctrine of the “Bible alone”?
Please tell us

Scripture verses that support the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Still waiting?

Scripture Verses that contradict 5”the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15



The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority” excludes the authority of God, Christ, and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the teaching authority of Christ in his apostolic church and the ministry of Angels!
Acts 8:26
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus taught BEFORE the Kingdom was taken away from the Jews.
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And they had the jurisdictional kingdom authority (keys) and power to bind and loose
Jesus said “this authority must be obeyed”
Then taken from Israel Matt 21:43 and given to the church who bears fruit Jn 15:4
In the person of Peter Matt 16:18-19 and the apostles Matt 18:18
Jn 20:21 acts 1:8 acts 2:42 eph 2:20
Jesus must still say: “this authority must be obeyed”
Thanks

Replacement theology

Christ replaces David as king! Lk 1:32-33

The new covenant replaces the mosaic covenant! Matt 21:43 heb 8:13 heb 8:6 heb 9:15
Gal 4 new Jerusalem / new creation
Mary mother of all those living in the new creation of Jesus Christ replaces eve as the mother of the living! Jn 19:26 rev 12:17

The new covenant church is the new Israel! Matt 21:43

The cross replaces the Star of David as the symbol of salvation!
 
Paul Timothy said:
John 3:6 argues against your position.
You are not admitting that verae into your theology.

What "if" are you talking about?

What have I claimed?
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I said “if” a Protestant has a pea brain then a fundamentalist must be microscopic

We are spiritually born by water AND the spirit and not spirit only!
 
donadams said:
I said “if” a Protestant has a pea brain then a fundamentalist must be microscopic

We are spiritually born by water AND the spirit and not spirit only!
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John 3:6 says differently. Why not just put the two verses together and explain why I am wrong.
 
for_his_glory said:
If you want to refute those scriptures I gave about it all being about the blood of Jesus that washes away our sin, then feel free to believe it is done by immersion in water as I will no longer debate this with you.
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If baptismal regeneration is not the initiation into the new covenant
What is?
Or are all men redeemed and saved?
Thanks

The initiation into a covenant requires an outward sign

Jn 3:5 cannot enter without the outward sign
 
donadams said:
If baptismal regeneration is not the initiation into the new covenant
What is?
Or are all men redeemed and saved?
Thanks

The initiation into a covenant requires an outward sign

Jn 3:5 cannot enter without the outward sign
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Remember to add John 3:6 to explain John 3:5.
If you only take one verse you run the risk of getting the meaning wrong.
 
for_his_glory said:
What do you mean by "initiation" into the new covenant, it's not a club and you have to pass a test.

When you understand John's baptism that is different then the Baptism of Christ for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit then we can discuss this. I gave my study in post #308.
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Yes JTB was preparation for the new covenant sacrament of baptism

Example initiation into the mosaic covenant was circumcision

An outward sign administered

The new covenant initiation is baptismal regeneration
Administered by the apostles

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!


Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19






Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!
 
donadams said:
I said “if” a Protestant has a pea brain then a fundamentalist must be microscopic

We are spiritually born by water AND the spirit and not spirit only!
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PLEASE REFRAIN FROM INSULTING THOSE OF OTHER DENOMINATIONS.
YOU ARE BREAKING TOS RULES.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST ON THIS THREAD. USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.
THANKS
 
Paul Timothy said:
Remember to add John 3:6 to explain John 3:5.
If you only take one verse you run the risk of getting the meaning wrong.
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5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I don’t see a change?

Are you saying the flesh is not important?
 
donadams said:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I don’t see a change?

Are you saying the flesh is not important?
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Verse 6 shows that verse 5 is NOT about baptism.
 
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