Matt 23:1-3 question

[Jethro Bodine]

Point three the same authority is in Peter and the apostles. Isa 22:21-22 Matt 26:17-19 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:20 lk 10:16 Jn 16:13 Matt 5:14 1 Tim 3:15
And Jesus Christ still demands this authority to be obeyed and if we submit to the authorized ministers of the king we are submitting to the king! Jn 13:20 Acts 20:28 Heb 13:7 heb 13:17

Thankfully, we can know who is an authorized minister of God and who is not by sticking to the Bible alone and discerning everything we hear through it and the Spirit of discernment within us. That is how we know that the Catholic church's teachings are not from God. It's beliefs about justification, especially, deviating from and distorting what the Bible says about justification, and the fact that it leads people into carnal, unscriptural, unspiritual beliefs and practices. But, of course, if you insist that a 'leader' doesn't have to stick to the Bible alone you can invent any belief and practice he wants to and insist the church has to follow it. That's a formula for disaster! That's why brave men on threat of death had to rebel against the Catholic church and separate themselves from it. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's impossible to refute what I'm saying since you assert that the Catholic church does not have to stick to the Bible alone and can say and do whatever it wants.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No they must teach only what God has revealed in Christ Matt 28:19

And we know what that is by the Bible and the discernment of the Holy Spirit, not by some Catholic leader who says his word is the word of Christ that can not be challenged.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about a “Pope” ruling over the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ from Rome?


Pope is simply an Italian name meaning father. Comes from Isa 22:21-22 as the head of a family is called father so the visible head of the church on earth is called father.

Christ is the only head of the church yes, but Peter acts on His behalf as His personal representative, Christ acts vicariously thru Peter and His successors. Hence the vicar of Christ.

Peter received the “keys of the kingdom” jurisdictional authority to govern the church with the apostles until Christ returns. Matt 16:18-19

This same authority belong to the successors of Moses, Matt 23:1-3 and Christ demanded that it be obeyed, then it was taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles.
Matt 21:43 Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Matt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 16:13 Jn 21:21 Jn 13:20 acts 20:28 heb 13:7-17

A cathedral to this day is called the “seat” of the bishop. The seat of authority.

Keys of jurisdictional authority! Open and shut And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 acts 2:42

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

God always establishes peace and order by obedience to the authority of the fathers.

The church is catholic cos it is universal. Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16 Matt 28:19

The church is Roman cos it is Christ’s church that conquered the Roman Empire!

You can not prove that the Catholic hierarchy is the successor of the original Apostles. It saying it is is not proof. We know they are not by the fact that they deviate from what Jesus and the original Apostles taught as recorded in our Bibles, and the fact that the Spirit of discernment all believers have will reveal the falsehood of it's teachings and practices in conjunction with those written words.

That is how Luther discerned the falseness of the Catholic church. He saw in the Bible that righteousness comes from outside a person and is given as a free gift of God's grace through faith in that gift, not developed in a person by being righteous to obey various rituals and commands as the Catholic church taught. The tiring and futile task of which brought him to the end of himself and into the revelation of God's gift of grace in justification apart from his works.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Bible yes
Bible alone no

I don't see that in the text you referenced.
Only what the Law says was to be obeyed.
Do not obey the dedicates(example) of man.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Same authority same requirement for obedience!

But no demand for obedience.
You stated there was a demand for obedience.
That is not in the text you referenced.
Why are you adding to the Bible things that are not in the Bible?

 

[for_his_glory]

The Catholic church hierarchy is an example of the New Covenant form of this kind of misguided and carnal leadership that God has rescued us from.

I wouldn't point out just the Catholic church, but any leadership that has strayed away from the truth of the word of God as this happens in many churches.

Matthew 23:1-36 Jesus gives the Scribes and Pharisees seven woes and the reason for each one. Then in vs. 37-38 Jesus Laments over Jerusalem: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

There are over 5000 different religions in the world claiming they are the true religion, but yet there is only one true word that was given to us by Gods own mouth as in the beginning was the word of God, and the word was God, John 1:1.

 

[for_his_glory]

Point three the same authority is in Peter and the apostles. Isa 22:21-22 Matt 26:17-19 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:20 lk 10:16 Jn 16:13 Matt 5:14 1 Tim 3:15
And Jesus Christ still demands this authority to be obeyed and if we submit to the authorized ministers of the king we are submitting to the king! Jn 13:20 Acts 20:28 Heb 13:7 heb 13:17

We are to submit to the authorities, but only when what they teach us lines up with the word of God and not man's doctrines. This is why Jesus said do as they say, but don't do as they do as being hypocrites.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Name one!

Oh, so the Catholics DO believe in sola scriptura?

We believe “thee faith” was “revealed” by Christ to his church! (Apostles)

Well, of course, the faith was revealed to the church, the members of Christ's body. Every believer has had truth revealed to them by the Holy Spirit! That's precisely why we don't need the Catholic church to discern truth for us. It is the Holy Spirit within each believer that discerns for them whether or not what they are being taught is truth or not. I mean, of the things that can be discerned. Some things have not, and will not be disclosed to the people of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wouldn't point out just the Catholic church, but any leadership that has strayed away from the truth of the word of God as this happens in many churches.

Yes, any church that tells its members they can't be saved without them.

As long a church that has the truths of justification and salvation down, I have no problem with them not being totally correct in other matters of doctrine and practice. As long as they don't make those things conditions for being right with God in salvation.

 

[donadams]

Where is it written that all the truths revealed by God or Christ are found in scripture?

Where does scripture say what is included in scripture?

When did Jesus say to Print and pass out bibles?

Or Read for yourself and make your own doctrine, faith, covenant, church, or religion?

Spiritual pride, presumption, arrogance result in spiritual anarchy!

Pride is a always in rebellion!

Refusal to obey and submit the authentic ministers of the king is refusal to obey and submit to the king, you are saying you’re not faithful subject ms if the king, not in the kingdom!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No they must teach only what God has revealed in Christ Matt 28:19

The gifts of the Spirit are self evident and do not require that someone in church authority decide if you have a particular gift and calling or not. If anyone wants to know what their spiritual gift is, ask the people you've had more than just casual fellowship with what your spiritual gift is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where is it written that all the truths revealed by God or Christ are found in scripture?

6“Do not go beyond what is written.” 1 Corinthians 4:6

Where does scripture say what is included in scripture?

Obviously, the law and the prophets is scripture. But Peter talks about Paul's writings being scripture (2 Peter 3:16). The gospels and the letters to the churches were understood by the church to be scripture very early in church history.

When did Jesus say to Print and pass out bibles?

Well, since the printing press was not invented until around 1436, he probably never said that, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Or Read for yourself and make your own doctrine, faith, covenant, church, or religion?

It isn't about making up your own doctrine. It's about being able, with the aid of the written word and the discernment of the Holy Spirit to know if what someone is saying is truth or not.

Spiritual pride, presumption, arrogance result in spiritual anarchy!

Absolutely correct. But to insist the Catholic church hierarchy is the one and only true church approved by God and not allowed to be questioned or challenged is presumption at best, pure arrogance at worst.

Pride is a always in rebellion!

Refusal to obey and submit the authentic ministers of the king is refusal to obey and submit to the king, you are saying you’re not faithful subject ms if the king, not in the kingdom!

I agree.
But what I and many, many other non-Catholics don't agree with is the Catholic hierarchy is the authentic ministration of the king's truth and authority. Let alone the one and only authentic ministration of the king's truth and authority.

 

[donadams]

I see no demands from Christ that His authority be obeyed. That is going beyond the scope of the quoted scriptures.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Simply say to obey

 

[Paul Timothy]

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Simply say to obey

You have changed verses and I believe that is called cherry picking.
You have moved the goalposts while I have tried to address your initial point... you saw you were loosing the battle... and now come with totally different references.
Not a fair game... you are rigging the deck.
That just makes you look bad and is not good for your argument.
Is this what a Pope lead church does? I think I would prefer a church that does not use "bait and switch" on it's people.

 

[donadams]

Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5 (the church is the new Jerusalem the kingdom) gal 4:26 (one church) Jn 10:16

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Rev 21: 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matt 21:43 taken from Israel given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20


1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Christ is king and has all authority and dominion!

Christ appointed Peter, the apostles, and their successors to govern the church and administer the kingdom until He returns in glory!

Submission and obedience to them is submission and obedience to Christ!

Like Joseph under pharaoh the king and his brothers bowed in obedience to Him as God willed!

Pride is always in rebellion against God saying: I will not serve! I will not obey!

All those who submit and obey are Christ’s!

 

[Paul Timothy]

Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5 (the church is the new Jerusalem the kingdom) gal 4:26 (one church) Jn 10:16

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Rev 21: 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matt 21:43 taken from Israel given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20


1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Christ is king and has all authority and dominion!

Yep

Christ appointed Peter, the apostles, and their successors to govern the church and administer the kingdom until He returns in glory!

Nope... You have not shown this to be the case.

Submission and obedience to them is submission and obedience to Christ!

Nope... How come Paul corrected Peter... was Paul then in defiance of Christ... if so why did Peter change his behaviour in response to Paul's correction.
Did the other apostles in Jerusalem be in defiance of Christ when questioning Peter about going to the Gentiles... why did Peter have to convince them by bringing up the Baptism of the Holy Ghost... why did Peter just not command them to obey his obvious authority.

Like Joseph under pharaoh the king and his brothers bowed in obedience to Him as God willed!

When did the king bow in obedience to "Him"? When did Joseph get a capitalized pronoun? You are saying Joseph is God?

Pride is always in rebellion against God saying: I will not serve! I will not obey!

Where is that verse?

All those who submit and obey are Christ’s!

Yep.

So where are you getting these extra Biblical ideas? Would you not like to share the source of your knowledge so that we can all examine the validity of your sources?
Please put forward something other than cherry picked verses out of context.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will not serve! I will not obey!

...the Catholic church.

I don't recognize it as being anything close to being the authority the Bible says we are to submit to and respect.

 

[WIP]

We firmly resist the Catholic additions to what the Bible teaches.

Catholics are sitting ducks for corruption because they are told that they must listen to what their leadership teaches, no matter what, even if it's not from the Bible, and that they have no capacity to discern and judge that which they are told only the hierarchy of the Catholic church can discern as truth. And so, corrupt is what it has become! You have no measure by which to know truth from error! You are at the mercy of a corrupt hierarchy that lords it over you, just as the Pharisees lorded it over the Jews and mislead them with unspiritual and carnal commands and practices added to the law.

Christ died to set God's people free from that system of corrupt leadership. Now we don't depend on so-called leaders to discern truth for us. We have that capacity for ourselves through the Holy Spirit of discernment given to all of God's people, not just those in offices of authority as it was before the Holy Spirit was given to the common man.

There is some truth here. I frequently enjoy listening to the Catholic Channel on SiriusXM. One of the things that has caught my attention now, as well as it did when I was a member of the Catholic church, is how often I hear the radio hosts refer to "The church says this" or "The Catechism says this." Every time I hear these phrases my immediate reaction is, "But, what does God say?" It seems to me that what God says should take precedence.

 

[WIP]

Where is it written that all the truths revealed by God or Christ are found in scripture?

With all due respect, to me this is a scary sentiment because it opens the door to anything man can come up with. From there, where can one determine the proverbial line in the sand is to be drawn?