Bible Study Matt. 25;46

[GodsGrace]

Well there is of course always a reason. That doesn't mean they/you don't understand. They could just be playing ignorance as they have no other way to respond to the evidence given. You know..."help me out here, I just want to understand".

The seed line of satan means....the seed line of satan. (Gen. 3:15) And it was produced immediately in Adams first born. (1John 3:12) Later you see them in many of the Pharisees. (John 8:41) (8:42) (8:44) (8:47) (10:26) The ones not of God, don't belong to God. The ones of satan, don't belong to God.

I don't know how you got sentence 6 out of that. No matter. Yes, just because God created the means whereby one is saved, faith in Christ, doesn't make election conditional. You are confusing the act of salvation with election. Before one places faith in Christ, they are already elect. Because they are elect, they place faith in Christ. Because they are of God, they place faith in Christ. You see? Of course not.

I certainly did explain what I mean by election. See 2nd paragraph from the bottom in post #(208)

Your comments didn't reveal any contradiction on my part. Again, show me the contradictions you accuse me of.

The election I hold to is unconditional election. That doesn't mean it has to match what Calvin views as unconditional election. If my election matched Calvins views, then I would be a Calvinist. That is why I have told you that it doesn't. You want me to match with Calvin, for some unknown reason. But I don't.

No, it is just confusing to you because you are so geared against Calvinism that any unconditional election must be of Calvin. Yours is a Pavlov's dog response and refuse to react any other way.

Quantrill

You must come from some weird forums.
It's not like that here.
If I tell you I don't understand you, it's because I don't understand you.
Basically, it'll be because you're saying something I've never heard before.
The seed line of satan....WHERE in the bible does it say this?

I'm not accusing you of anything.

What gets a person saved?

It's late here.
Tomorrow I'll address Genesis 3:15.

 

[Quantrill]

You must come from some weird forums.
It's not like that here.
If I tell you I don't understand you, it's because I don't understand you.
Basically, it'll be because you're saying something I've never heard before.
The seed line of satan....WHERE in the bible does it say this?

I'm not accusing you of anything.

What gets a person saved?

It's late here.
Tomorrow I'll address Genesis 3:15.

There is always some 'weird' on all forums.

I just showed you where to find the seed line of satan spoken of in the Bible. Second paragraph from the top of post #(220).

Today, ones initial salvation, coming from a lost state to a saved state, occurs when they place faith in Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

 

[rstrats]

Today, ones initial salvation, coming from a lost state to a saved state, occurs when they place faith in Jesus Christ.

So faith is a condition/requirement for salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well there is of course always a reason. That doesn't mean they/you don't understand. They could just be playing ignorance as they have no other way to respond to the evidence given. You know..."help me out here, I just want to understand".

The seed line of satan means....the seed line of satan. (Gen. 3:15) And it was produced immediately in Adams first born. (1John 3:12) Later you see them in many of the Pharisees. (John 8:41) (8:42) (8:44) (8:47) (10:26) The ones not of God, don't belong to God. The ones of satan, don't belong to God.

I don't know how you got sentence 6 out of that. No matter. Yes, just because God created the means whereby one is saved, faith in Christ, doesn't make election conditional. You are confusing the act of salvation with election. Before one places faith in Christ, they are already elect. Because they are elect, they place faith in Christ. Because they are of God, they place faith in Christ. You see? Of course not.

If our salvation is based ON THE CONDITION that we accept Jesus as Savior....
that makes salvation CONDITIONAL.
I'm not confusing the act of salvation with election. I don't usually get confused.
You're saying that before one places faith in Christ, they are ALREADY elect.
What is there to see? This is calvinism which states that God chooses who will be saved
and that salvation comes before faith.
Exactly what you are saying.


I don't know what the seed line of satan is:
You bring up Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

God will make the woman be an enemy of satan.
Who is the woman? Most theologians believe this is referring to Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Why? Because women do not have seed. When seed is spoken of in the bible, it always refers to the man.
The seed of Mary is her Son...Jesus...the One who will crush satan.

Satan also does not have seed. He is a spirit and spirits do not father children.
So what is the seed of satan? Sin, death, lies..these are his seeds, or the fruit he bears.

And Mary's fruit was Jesus.
Jesus will crush satan and kill his power over mankind....
and satan will try to hurt Jesus, but he will only bruise Jesus because Jesus will die but will resurrect.
Instead Jesus does kill satan and his power over humankind.


You also posted 1 John 3:12 which states that Cain was of the evil one.
This is to show that Abel was pleasing to God...but Cain was not.
We are all born lost and not pleasing to God.

As we are the children of God
we can say that wicked men are children of satan.
As long as we understand that this is a metaphor, it's OK.

I certainly did explain what I mean by election. See 2nd paragraph from the bottom in post #(208)

Your comments didn't reveal any contradiction on my part. Again, show me the contradictions you accuse me of.

The election I hold to is unconditional election. That doesn't mean it has to match what Calvin views as unconditional election. If my election matched Calvins views, then I would be a Calvinist. That is why I have told you that it doesn't. You want me to match with Calvin, for some unknown reason. But I don't.

No, it is just confusing to you because you are so geared against Calvinism that any unconditional election must be of Calvin. Yours is a Pavlov's dog response and refuse to react any other way.

Quantrill

You're right. I totally disagree with the reformed faith.
I don't believe in ANY type of unconditional election.
However, I'm not Pavlov's dog and I don't have knee-jerk reactions.
All my responses to you are will thought out.

 

[Quantrill]

So faith is a condition/requirement for salvation.

Of course.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

If our salvation is based ON THE CONDITION that we accept Jesus as Savior....
that makes salvation CONDITIONAL.
I'm not confusing the act of salvation with election. I don't usually get confused.
You're saying that before one places faith in Christ, they are ALREADY elect.
What is there to see? This is calvinism which states that God chooses who will be saved
and that salvation comes before faith.
Exactly what you are saying.


I don't know what the seed line of satan is:
You bring up Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

God will make the woman be an enemy of satan.
Who is the woman? Most theologians believe this is referring to Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Why? Because women do not have seed. When seed is spoken of in the bible, it always refers to the man.
The seed of Mary is her Son...Jesus...the One who will crush satan.

Satan also does not have seed. He is a spirit and spirits do not father children.
So what is the seed of satan? Sin, death, lies..these are his seeds, or the fruit he bears.

And Mary's fruit was Jesus.
Jesus will crush satan and kill his power over mankind....
and satan will try to hurt Jesus, but he will only bruise Jesus because Jesus will die but will resurrect.
Instead Jesus does kill satan and his power over humankind.


You also posted 1 John 3:12 which states that Cain was of the evil one.
This is to show that Abel was pleasing to God...but Cain was not.
We are all born lost and not pleasing to God.

As we are the children of God
we can say that wicked men are children of satan.
As long as we understand that this is a metaphor, it's OK.




You're right. I totally disagree with the reformed faith.
I don't believe in ANY type of unconditional election.
However, I'm not Pavlov's dog and I don't have knee-jerk reactions.
All my responses to you are will thought out.

Yes, salvation is conditional. One must place faith in Christ. That doesn't make election conditional. Again, (2 Thess. 2:13) God who chooses who will be saved, also chose the method by which we are saved. The condition of faith for salvation doesn't change election one bit.

That I hold to unconditional election, I have already told you yes. But it is not the same as the unconditional election of Calvin.

You don't 'agree' what the seed line of satan is. Don't say you don't know. I have just explained it. And I have given you Scripture. But what does that matter? God says the 'seed' of the woman. God says the 'seed' of the serpent. But then, what does He know? You know better.

(1 John 3:12) shows that Cain was of satan. Just as the verses I gave you showed that many of the Pharisees were of satan. Such as (John 8:44). "Ye are of your father the devil....." See, you understand, you just don't agree.

So, are you of the seed of God? (1 John 3:9) Does God have seed? He seems to think so. Why should it be a metaphor? Why shouldn't it be literally true? Just because you disagree with it? See, Scripture supports what I have said. You disagree so....'metaphor'.

Well, I am not in agreement with all of the reformed faith either. Which I have already said many times. But I agree with much of it. Yes your response is as Pavlov's dog. You must brand me Calvinist even though my views are different to a degree. For some reason you have a bone, a hatred for Calvinism. Thus all your arguments are geared against Calvinism. If one is not a thorough going Calvinist, it throws a wrench in your work.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, salvation is conditional. One must place faith in Christ. That doesn't make election conditional. Again, (2 Thess. 2:13) God who chooses who will be saved, also chose the method by which we are saved. The condition of faith for salvation doesn't change election one bit.

That I hold to unconditional election, I have already told you yes. But it is not the same as the unconditional election of Calvin.

You don't 'agree' what the seed line of satan is. Don't say you don't know. I have just explained it. And I have given you Scripture. But what does that matter? God says the 'seed' of the woman. God says the 'seed' of the serpent. But then, what does He know? You know better.

(1 John 3:12) shows that Cain was of satan. Just as the verses I gave you showed that many of the Pharisees were of satan. Such as (John 8:44). "Ye are of your father the devil....." See, you understand, you just don't agree.

So, are you of the seed of God? (1 John 3:9) Does God have seed? He seems to think so. Why should it be a metaphor? Why shouldn't it be literally true? Just because you disagree with it? See, Scripture supports what I have said. You disagree so....'metaphor'.

Well, I am not in agreement with all of the reformed faith either. Which I have already said many times. But I agree with much of it. Yes your response is as Pavlov's dog. You must brand me Calvinist even though my views are different to a degree. For some reason you have a bone, a hatred for Calvinism. Thus all your arguments are geared against Calvinism. If one is not a thorough going Calvinist, it throws a wrench in your work.

Quantrill

What does the seed of God mean?
Does God make babies?
Was Jesus not His one and ONLY Son BEGOTTEN, not made?

John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

1 John 4:9
9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.


The seed of satan, or God, is a metaphor to mean that we are of satan before salvation and of God after salvation.
Also, seeds create fruit.....it can mean the fruit that we bear could be of satan (sin and death) or of God. Galatians 5:22

 

[Hospes]

There seems to be some confusion on what Reformed Theology means by unconditional election.

It means that the condition of the Elect had nothing to do with God's choice of His Elect. He did not foresee some characteristic(s) in a person and then predestine the person for salvation with consideration of the person's character.

The belief cuts off one path for pride/boasting in that a person redeemed by God has no reason to think they were chosen by God based on some personal innate characteristic that God found desirable or attractive. He chose simply on the basis of HIs own purposes.

Hope this helps you guys continue your debate a bit more informed.

 

[Quantrill]

What does the seed of God mean?
Does God make babies?
Was Jesus not His one and ONLY Son BEGOTTEN, not made?

John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

1 John 4:9
9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.


The seed of satan, or God, is a metaphor to mean that we are of satan before salvation and of God after salvation.
Also, seeds create fruit.....it can mean the fruit that we bear could be of satan (sin and death) or of God. Galatians 5:22

Well, yes. God makes babies, grows them to adolescence and sometimes into adult sons. (Gal. 4:1-5) (Heb. 5:13-14)

Jesus was not the only begotten Son in the numerical sense. He was the Only Begotten in that He was the Covenant Son. He was the One in whom all the promises are found and given. See (Heb. 11:17-18) "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac, shall thy seed be called."

But, was Isaac the only son of Abraham? No. There was Ishmael. (Gen. 16:15) There were sons by Keturah. (Gen. 25:1-5) But Isaac was the covenant son. The only begotten. So Abraham gave him all that he had. (25:5)

Jesus is the Only Begotten also. He is the Covenant Son. But God will have other sons and daughters. This is why Jesus is called the 'firstborn of many brethren'. (Rom. 8:29) This is why Jesus is also called the Second Man in (1 Cor. 15:47). There would be more to follow.

We are not 'metaphorically' children of God. We are real children of God born of Him. Literally have always been in his loins, so to speak. Have you ever considered (Proverbs 8:29-31)?

With that, consider also, (John 3:13). Compare to (John 8:23) and (John 3:3). (John 3:3) literally says 'born from above'. And unless your origin is correct, from above, you cannot see the Kingdom. (3:3) If your origin is correct, then you can be born again and enter the Kingdom. (3:5)

In other words, we who are the children of God, were never, ever, the children of satan. Never. We were lost, yes. Children of wrath, yes, because we were not yet saved. (Eph. 2:3)

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, yes. God makes babies, grows them to adolescence and sometimes into adult sons. (Gal. 4:1-5) (Heb. 5:13-14)

Jesus was not the only begotten Son in the numerical sense. He was the Only Begotten in that He was the Covenant Son. He was the One in whom all the promises are found and given. See (Heb. 11:17-18) "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac, shall thy seed be called."

Quantrill,
We have a miscommunication, I think.
God created everything by His Son Jesus.
John 1:3
3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.a

So God created all of humanity.
But God does not procreate. He does not make His own children as a human father does.

You listed Hebrews 11:17-18 which speaks about Abraham's only begotten son.
Happily, I speak more than one language and this does not give me a problem in
understanding that JESUS is God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
The word BEGOTTEN could mean ONLY or it could mean UNIQUE.
Only in the case of Jesus could the word begotten mean UNIQUE, because there is only ONE Son of God, Jesus.
In every other case it means ONLY,,,in the sense that the person had only ONE child.

The following will support what I've said:

Strong's Concordance word no. 3439 Monogenes
monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Definition: only begotten
Usage: only, only-begotten; unique.

sourece: https://biblehub.com/greek/3439.htm

But, was Isaac the only son of Abraham? No. There was Ishmael. (Gen. 16:15) There were sons by Keturah. (Gen. 25:1-5) But Isaac was the covenant son. The only begotten. So Abraham gave him all that he had. (25:5)

Jesus is the Only Begotten also. He is the Covenant Son. But God will have other sons and daughters. This is why Jesus is called the 'firstborn of many brethren'. (Rom. 8:29) This is why Jesus is also called the Second Man in (1 Cor. 15:47). There would be more to follow.

Jesus is the first born of many BROTHERS....
We are brothers and sisters IN CHRIST.

As to Isaac....He was the covenant son, as you've stated.
God never acknowledged Ishmael, who was banned from the tribe of Abraham (upon Sarah's request).

We are not 'metaphorically' children of God. We are real children of God born of Him. Literally have always been in his loins, so to speak. Have you ever considered (Proverbs 8:29-31)?

Is it not speaking about Wisdom?

With that, consider also, (John 3:13). Compare to (John 8:23) and (John 3:3). (John 3:3) literally says 'born from above'. And unless your origin is correct, from above, you cannot see the Kingdom. (3:3) If your origin is correct, then you can be born again and enter the Kingdom. (3:5)

Born from above means to be born in Spirit and not in flesh.
Jesus was comparing the physical birth to the spiritual birth.
Born again and Born from above is the same.
It does not mean God is our physical father, as y ou seem to insinuate.

1 Kings 8:9 speaks about how God knows the hearts of all the sons of man....
I doubt that would satisfy you.

In other words, we who are the children of God, were never, ever, the children of satan. Never. We were lost, yes. Children of wrath, yes, because we were not yet saved. (Eph. 2:3)

Quantrill

So, are you saying we were saved before being born?

 

[Christ_empowered]

hi. hello. its me, the amateur Calvinist.

my take on it (and by "my take on it," I mean material I'm lifting from RC Sproul, but paraphrasing...) is that its not so much horrible that so many souls end up in Hell -- that is humanity's default destination, after all -- but, rather, it is a tremendous show of God's great grace and love, mercy that some come to genuine repentance and saving faith in Christ Jesus...

and end up in eternal bliss.

It's like this (again, check RC Sproul for -brilliant- and well written material...I'm paraphrasing, this is an internet forum):

-Because- '...all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...' and because 'while we were still enemies of God, Christ died for us...' and also because -no one seeks after God- (paraphrase, don't know the address), it quite literally takes divine intervention for any (wretched, unrepentant, fallen, frail) human being to "come to his senses," Prodigal son-style, and seek forgiveness and an honest, ongoing, loving relationship with Christ.

I'm obviously -not- an expert, but I see hints of predestination throughout Scripture, along with -serious- encouragement to do it right. run the race in such a way -as to win- , -fight the good fight- , and also...

-sigh- some rather sobering descriptions of how even the churched among us may well fail. ye shall know a tree by the fruit it bears, wheat and tares (growing up together till harvest time), wolves in sheep's clothing, false teachers, false prophets, 'get away from me, ye workers of iniquity! i never knew you!," and of course...

((copied and pasted from www.biblegateway.com , because I'm a tad lazy and my memory isn't great...))

The Narrow Way​

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [a]Because narrow is the gate and [b]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

 

[Quantrill]

Quantrill,
We have a miscommunication, I think.
God created everything by His Son Jesus.
John 1:3
3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.a

So God created all of humanity.
But God does not procreate. He does not make His own children as a human father does.

You listed Hebrews 11:17-18 which speaks about Abraham's only begotten son.
Happily, I speak more than one language and this does not give me a problem in
understanding that JESUS is God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
The word BEGOTTEN could mean ONLY or it could mean UNIQUE.
Only in the case of Jesus could the word begotten mean UNIQUE, because there is only ONE Son of God, Jesus.
In every other case it means ONLY,,,in the sense that the person had only ONE child.

The following will support what I've said:

Strong's Concordance word no. 3439 Monogenes
monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Definition: only begotten
Usage: only, only-begotten; unique.

sourece: https://biblehub.com/greek/3439.htm




Jesus is the first born of many BROTHERS....
We are brothers and sisters IN CHRIST.

As to Isaac....He was the covenant son, as you've stated.
God never acknowledged Ishmael, who was banned from the tribe of Abraham (upon Sarah's request).



Is it not speaking about Wisdom?


Born from above means to be born in Spirit and not in flesh.
Jesus was comparing the physical birth to the spiritual birth.
Born again and Born from above is the same.
It does not mean God is our physical father, as y ou seem to insinuate.

1 Kings 8:9 speaks about how God knows the hearts of all the sons of man....
I doubt that would satisfy you.

So, are you saying we were saved before being born?

No, there is no miscommunication. You just don't know what to do with the verses I gave you.

If God does not procreate more sons and daughters, why are you 'born-again'? Why are you 'begotten again'? ( 1 Peter 1:3) (1 Peter 1:23) Why are we born of incorruptible seed?

I mentioned (Heb. 11:17-18) to show that the term 'only begotten' does not refer to numerical count. It speaks to the covenant son. Abraham had more sons than Isaac. But Isaac was his only begotten because he was the covenant son. The same is true with Jesus Christ. The term Only Begotten speaks to Christ being the Covenant Son. God has many more sons and daughters.

When it says Jesus is the first born of many brethren, that means He is the first. It means there are more to follow. Do you believe you are a son or daughter of God? If not, what are you? Is Jesus your Brother or not? (Heb. 2:11)

Nothing supports what you have said. The Scripture I have shown you proves what I have said. The term 'only begotten' speaks to the covenant son, be it Isaac or Christ. You attempted to use it to prove that there is only one son of God. As far as the Godhead goes, yes the Son is the only. But that is not what is being addressed in the term 'only begotten'. The Son was never begotten. The Son when He was resurrected as the Man Jesus Christ was begotten. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33) And the Man Jesus Christ was the 'first begotten'. Again, meaning there are more to follow.

And, concerning (Provebs 8:29-30), all you see is it is talking about wisdom? No doubt you have never considered it. Wisdom of God is personified and speaking. Some hold that it is speaking of Christ, but whether it is Christ or the Wisdom of God is immaterial. The time period being addressed is the 'beginning'. (8:22) Read (8:22-28). And in that time Wisdom says, "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight..." (8:30) And then Wisdom says, " ...and my delights were with the sons of men." What 'sons of men'? This was before the earth was created.

No, born from above means born from above. It is not the same as being born again. It speaks to ones origin. If your origin is not right, from above, then you cannot even see the Kingdom. (3:3) If it is right, from above, then you will be born again. (3:5) Did you read (John 3:13)? Apparently not. "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

I didn't say God was our physical Father. Where did you get that?

What a silly question you ask. I just said "because we were not yet saved. (Eph. 2:3)" And yet you ask "are you saying we we were saved before being born?" See, you must somehow move me into Calvinism.

Quantrill