Matthew 12:40

[Sinthesis]

I said it was a brilliant plan of God to fulfill both. Tradition of man were your words not mine.

'Tradition of men' were brother Paul's words. You two seem to believe in the same timeline which depends on the observance of two Seders, which I don't believe is supported scripturally. Appealing to the authority of Babylonian rabbis or ambiguity in scripture for the justification of two Seders is logically flawed. Moses and the Israelites took part in the original Passover with only one Seder on one true date.

 

[brother Paul]

Sinth...when you say "'Tradition of men' were brother Paul's words. You two seem to believe in the same timeline which depends on the observance of two Seders, which I don't believe is supported scripturally." You are suggesting I believe the two Seders are Scripturally supported....go back and read my post, i do not believe the one on the 15th is Scripturally supported and pointed that out from the Torah itself.

 

[JohnD]

'Tradition of men' were brother Paul's words. You two seem to believe in the same timeline which depends on the observance of two Seders, which I don't believe is supported scripturally. Appealing to the authority of Babylonian rabbis or ambiguity in scripture for the justification of two Seders is logically flawed. Moses and the Israelites took part in the original Passover with only one Seder on one true date.

The Seder Moses kept was ON the 14th of Nisan.

Exodus 12:18 (AV)
18In the first month, ON the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

Official Israel has been keeping it on 15 Nisan nearly ever since.

You made my point. Thanks.

 

[Sinthesis]

The Seder Moses kept was ON the 14th of Nisan.

Exodus 12:18 (AV)
18In the first month, ON the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

Official Israel has been keeping it on 15 Nisan nearly ever since.

You made my point. Thanks.

Exodus 12:18 doesn't say Moses kept the Seder on Nisan 14 any more than it says Moses kept the Seder on Nisan 21. Research the entire Unleavened Bread Passover festival and you'll find that preparation day is the 14th, while the Seder is the 15th, which also happens to be a high sabbath no matter the day of the week.

 

[JohnD]

While one must take into account the amalgam of scripture on a subject, Sinthesis, you cannot deny one which I cited saying ON 14 Nisan.

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinth...when you say "'Tradition of men' were brother Paul's words. You two seem to believe in the same timeline which depends on the observance of two Seders, which I don't believe is supported scripturally." You are suggesting I believe the two Seders are Scripturally supported....go back and read my post, i do not believe the one on the 15th is Scripturally supported and pointed that out from the Torah itself.

If you believe the last supper was a Seder, then you must believe a paschal lamb was killed for that last supper on one day of the week, with that day authenticated by Jesus' partaking of that last supper Seder. Yet Jesus himself was sacrificed as our Paschal Lamb on the next day. Was this next day also the correct one for Jesus, our Paschal Lamb, to be slaughtered as the ultimate fulfillment of Passover?

 

[Sinthesis]

While one must take into account the amalgam of scripture on a subject, Sinthesis, you cannot deny one which I cited saying ON 14 Nisan.

I can deny that you appreciate the significance of 'ON 14 Nisan'.

Nisan 14 is preparation day when the Lamb is slaughtered, while Nisan 15 is the day to observe Passover and partake of the Seder.

 

[brother Paul]

Sinth...you are totally mislead on this by Rabbinicism....go back and re-read the post on Exodus 12 (or better yet read and exegete Exodus 12)....it slaughtered on that evening, eaten on that night, before the morning (or burnt), BETWEEN the evenings....and the NEXT DAY begins "the 7 day Feast" of Unleavened Bread...the whole of it spans from the 14th (Passover proper) to the 21st of the month (that's 8 days in all).....That is Torah (not some oral Torah made up centuries later)

Passover (during the Morning or daylight section) is the "preparation day" for the UB (which was the day they left Egypt) ....there is nothing in Torah that speaks of a "preparation day" for Passover. The Jewish people (not given to the Israelites from God except in regards to preparing foods) also practice a "preparation day" for the weekly Sabbath, thats it buddy~

 

[JCitoL]

JCitoL,
re: "here are some biblical quotes:"

I don't see how the quotes are responsive to the request in the OP. I wonder if you might explain?

the three "days" are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while the three "nights" are the dragon, the beast, and the other beast which are the satanic equivalent(s) of the Trinity, and it means the true Lord God is in principle not limited to save the human/besouled beings even if some of them turn out to be somehow absorbed by the triad of the "darkness", but if they (prefer to) continue being its spiritual servants instead of God, then they will so risk to suffer more than would otherwise

Blessings

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinth...you are totally mislead on this by Rabbinicism....go back and re-read the post on Exodus 12 (or better yet read and exegete Exodus 12)....it slaughtered on that evening, eaten on that night, before the morning (or burnt), BETWEEN the evenings....and the NEXT DAY begins "the 7 day Feast" of Unleavened Bread...the whole of it spans from the 14th (Passover proper) to the 21st of the month (that's 8 days in all).....That is Torah (not some oral Torah made up centuries later)

Passover (during the Morning or daylight section) is the "preparation day" for the UB (which was the day they left Egypt) ....there is nothing in Torah that speaks of a "preparation day" for Passover. The Jewish people (not given to the Israelites from God except in regards to preparing foods) also practice a "preparation day" for the weekly Sabbath, thats it buddy~

We are to interpret scripture in light of scripture.

Lev 23:5 - In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 - And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 - In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 - But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Num 28:16 ¶ And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
Num 28:17 - And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Num 28:18 - In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:​

Passover begins on the 14th, the paschal lamb is slaughtered on the 14th, but the Seder feast is on the 15th.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Wow! All I can say is that it's very entertaining watching a conversation that pops up this time every year where people can't agree on 3 days in the tomb!

One says that Jews just counted parts of days, another acknowledges that these is something to 3 days and 3 nights but "to make it fit" he must have have been including time other than his death, and yet another says that if he spent 3 full days in the tomb he'd be rising the 4th day and all sorts of entertaining spin. But to Jesus, a day has 12 hours. He said so.

Here. I'll make it simple. 1) Suppose at midnight March 27 I say I'll be back in three days (or the third day). When will that be? 2) Or again, let's compare to hours. Midnight to one in the morning is the first hour. They say the 3rd watch ended the third hour after midnight. What time is that?

Correct answers are 1) Midnight March 30 and 2) 3AM.

Now do the same thing if Jesus was crucified late 14th of Nisan in the afternoon and interred to start Nisan 15. Now do the same thing as my example. What date is that? What date is now starting? And if that is Firstfruits (Sunday) project back to the 15th and 14th, and you have your correct answers for the day of the crucifixion.

With all due respect, I especially address the Friday crucifixionists. Face it. Had you not heard that story, and read the bible uninfluenced by traditions, there is no way you'd get Friday sundown until pre-dawn Sunday morning as 3 days and 3 nights. (Edited, ToS 2.4, rude and belittling comment. Obadiah) It won't fit. Period.

 

[brother Paul]

We are to interpret scripture in light of scripture.

Lev 23:5 - In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 - And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 - In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 - But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Num 28:16 ¶ And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
Num 28:17 - And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Num 28:18 - In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:​

Passover begins on the 14th, the paschal lamb is slaughtered on the 14th, but the Seder feast is on the 15th.

No...verses 5 and 6 are speaking of two different feasts....cross reference to Exodus 12...Lev 23:5 and Numbers 28:16 both say the Passover (which is the Seder) is on the 14th.

Lev 23:7 and Num 28:18 are both referring to the 1st day of UB NOT Passover. The focus of the Seder is not the unleavened bread (though it is on the Table) it is the Lamb and his blood....the 1st through 7th day of UB have nothing to do with the Lamb or the blood

 

[MarkT]

The way I see it, 3 mornings = 3 days. An evening and a morning equals one day according to Genesis. 'And there was evening and there was morning, one day. Gen. 1:5

Therefore Jesus was raised up on the 3rd morning, the first day of the week ie. Monday

He was crucified Friday afternoon ... then Sat. morning, Sun. morning, Mon. morning ... 3 days and 3 nights ... he was resurrected Monday morning, the first day of the week.

 

[Sinthesis]

No...verses 5 and 6 are speaking of two different feasts....cross reference to Exodus 12...Lev 23:5 and Numbers 28:16 both say the Passover (which is the Seder) is on the 14th.

Lev 23:7 and Num 28:18 are both referring to the 1st day of UB NOT Passover. The focus of the Seder is not the unleavened bread (though it is on the Table) it is the Lamb and his blood....the 1st through 7th day of UB have nothing to do with the Lamb or the blood

Two feasts? Can you illustrate and differentiate those two feasts from scripture for us?

Exo 12:18 - In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.​

Passover is not the Seder. The Seder is only a part of Passover, which itself is only a part of the week of unleavened bread. If you plot out the timeline of Passover from Exodus 12 you will notice that the Paschal lamb is killed in the evening of the 14th. Darkness brings the transition to the 15th, and the Seder meal is eaten that night. The angel of death goes through the land in the midnight hours of the 15th, after which Pharaoh frees the Israelites who have eaten in haste anticipating their freedom at sunrise, and must leave before their bread can be leavened.

Exo 12:10 - And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

Exo 12:42 - It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.

Num 33:3 - And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.​

 

[brother Paul]

Sinth? Look at what you posted in Exodus 12:10....it is talking about the Seder....the Lamb (the object of the Passover meal, the seder) must be consumed before the morning (of the 14th). The evening and the morning are ONE DAY, the same day....

They are to prepare and eat the Lamb, the herbs and the bread of haste, ON the 14th....I cannot believe you cannot see this....its so obvious! The day they departed was the 15th (you posted it) not the day they stayed within their dwellings for the angel of death to pass over....

A great book to clarify this distinction written by Rabbi Barney Kasdan titled God's Appointed Times exegetes the feasts very clearly. The Passover (the night they eat it all before morning) and the 7 days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread are an 8 day celebration....UB alone is a 7 day celebration.

In His love

Paul

 

[tim-from-pa]

Sinth? Look at what you posted in Exodus 12:10....it is talking about the Seder....the Lamb (the object of the Passover meal, the seder) must be consumed before the morning (of the 14th). The evening and the morning are ONE DAY, the same day....

They are to prepare and eat the Lamb, the herbs and the bread of haste, ON the 14th....I cannot believe you cannot see this....its so obvious! The day they departed was the 15th (you posted it) not the day they stayed within their dwellings for the angel of death to pass over....

A great book to clarify this distinction written by Rabbi Barney Kasdan titled God's Appointed Times exegetes the feasts very clearly. The Passover (the night they eat it all before morning) and the 7 days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread are an 8 day celebration....UB alone is a 7 day celebration.

In His love

Paul

However, if they were to eat the lamb early on the 14th, they'd still be eating the lamb with unleavened Bread, not? At least that's my understanding that the Unleavened Bread (for the feast) is eaten with the lamb.

 

[Deborah13]

However, if they were to eat the lamb early on the 14th, they'd still be eating the lamb with unleavened Bread, not? At least that's my understanding that the Unleavened Bread (for the feast) is eaten with the lamb.

If they ate it early on the 14th then they would not be eating it with unleavened bread.
The time of Yeshua's death tells us what time of day on the 14th was the Biblical time for the passover lamb to be sacrificed and prepared for the feast, beginning on the 15th. They prepared His body and laid Him in the tomb just before dark, but still during the twilight hrs. (evening/eve)?

EDIT: to all...
This article written by Nehemia Gordon /Karaite Jew is an interesting history of why and how this feast was changed over the years beginning during the second temple period.
http://www.nehemiaswall.com/when-is-passover

 

[tim-from-pa]

2 things Deborah:
1) check out Exodus 12:8
2) I'm familiar with NEHEMIAH Gordon and he believes the lamb (thus Passover) was slaughtered late on the 14th. As far as I am aware the Karaites are correct in their timing of all the feasts.

 

[brother Paul]

Final entry on this side rail....

Exodus 12

All of this IS the 14th

keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk. (which is the beginning of the 14th)

7 And they shall take of the blood, and put it on the two side-posts and on the lintel, upon the houses (plural) wherein they shall eat it. (not in the tabernacle or Temple)

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, (in that night, in that night…the 14th) roast with fire, and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; its head with its legs and with the inwards thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning (the morning time of the 14th); but that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

That's YHVH's command in the Torah folks, deal with it as you will...

The Lord bless

Paul

 

[tim-from-pa]

Final entry on this side rail....

Exodus 12

All of this IS the 14th

keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk. (which is the beginning of the 14th)

7 And they shall take of the blood, and put it on the two side-posts and on the lintel, upon the houses (plural) wherein they shall eat it. (not in the tabernacle or Temple)

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, (in that night, in that night…the 14th) roast with fire, and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; its head with its legs and with the inwards thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning (the morning time of the 14th); but that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

That's YHVH's command in the Torah folks, deal with it as you will...

The Lord bless

Paul