Matthew 12:40

[tim-from-pa]

Problem is the Torah says to eat unleavened bread 7 days from the evening of the 14th until the evening of the 21st. You have them eating it with the lamb the evening of the 13th already if you claim it's all of the 14th.

 

[chessman]

If they ate it early on the 14th then they would not be eating it with unleavened bread.
The time of Yeshua's death tells us what time of day on the 14th was the Biblical time for the passover lamb to be sacrificed and prepared for the feast, beginning on the 15th. They prepared His body and laid Him in the tomb just before dark, but still during the twilight hrs. (evening/eve)?

EDIT: to all...
This article written by Nehemia Gordon /Karaite Jew is an interesting history of why and how this feast was changed over the years beginning during the second temple period.
http://www.nehemiaswall.com/when-is-passover

Also, the following 'article', written 160-180 A.D. is interesting:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apollinaris.html

The controversy over the day of the month is old and is why I chose to simply celebrate a weekly Easter every week on the first day of the week.

 

[Deborah13]

2 things Deborah:
1) check out Exodus 12:8
2) I'm familiar with NEHEMIAH Gordon and he believes the lamb (thus Passover) was slaughtered late on the 14th. As far as I am aware the Karaites are correct in their timing of all the feasts.

Thanks

 

[Deborah13]

Also, the following 'article', written 160-180 A.D. is interesting:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apollinaris.html

The controversy over the day of the month is old and is why I chose to simply celebrate a weekly Easter every week on the first day of the week.

Thanks for the confirmation, good read.
imo
"As often as you do this...." I don't see where the bread and the cup are forbidden at any time or commanded to be kept only once a year. So each one must determine for themselves with the Lord.

 

[brother Paul]

Problem is the Torah says to eat unleavened bread 7 days from the evening of the 14th until the evening of the 21st. You have them eating it with the lamb the evening of the 13th already if you claim it's all of the 14th.

14.15, 16,17,18,19,20,21 = 8 days

 

[tim-from-pa]

14.15, 16,17,18,19,20,21 = 8 days

Exactly my point. So that's 8 days but the feast of unleavened bread is 7 days to eat it. Thus the first day is when it's eaten with the lamb, and the intent was to kill the lamb the afternoon of the 14th prepare it and then eaten with the unleavened bread the first day of unleavened bread that night as the 15th started. So the lamb was killed the 14th and eaten the 15th.

 

[brother Paul]

Okee Dokee!

 

[brother Paul]

Sorry for the one more post my brother but how do you see this church history?

Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, and disciple of the Apostle John (around 130 -150A.D.), also believed that Nisan 14 was the correct time for the feast, and went to Rome to discuss this with Anicetus, bishop of Rome who held to a Sunday observance. So Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons – 155 A.D.) tells us “And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points…For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance in his own way, inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep the observance in his way, for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him.”

Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus, (130 – 196 A.D.) writes, “All who follow the practices of the gospel as understood by at least the Apostles John and Philip observe the Passover on the 14th, which is the evening of the portion of the day we commonly would call the 13th.”

And also said “Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles . . . and, moreover, John, who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined on the bosom of the Lord . . . and Polycarp in Smyrna, who was a bishop and martyr . . . Those observed the fourteenth day of the Passover according to the gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith" (Anti-Nicean Fathers, vol. 8, pp.773-774).

Apollinarius, Bishop of Hierapolis (ca. A.D. 170), tells us, "The 14th Nisan is the TRUE PASSOVER OF OUR LORD, the great Sacrifice; instead of the lamb, we have the Lamb of God"

Later Irenaeus (around 175 A.D.) again wrote to (Pope) Victor of Rome and asked that Victor not break the unity with "the many bishops of Asia and the East, who WITH THE JEWS CELEBRATED THE PASSOVER on the fourteenth day of the new moon" (NPNF, 2nd, III, p.370).

Eusibius The History of the Church writes “A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior's Passover.”

How is it that all these men taught either by the Apostles or by those the Apostles taught sis not understand it as you are teaching. This was the tradition handed down by the Apostles, should we not at least accept it even though we now follow the traditions of Rome?

Paul

 

[Deborah13]

Sinth? Look at what you posted in Exodus 12:10....it is talking about the Seder....the Lamb (the object of the Passover meal, the seder) must be consumed before the morning (of the 14th). The evening and the morning are ONE DAY, the same day....

They are to prepare and eat the Lamb, the herbs and the bread of haste, ON the 14th....I cannot believe you cannot see this....its so obvious! The day they departed was the 15th (you posted it) not the day they stayed within their dwellings for the angel of death to pass over....

A great book to clarify this distinction written by Rabbi Barney Kasdan titled God's Appointed Times exegetes the feasts very clearly. The Passover (the night they eat it all before morning) and the 7 days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread are an 8 day celebration....UB alone is a 7 day celebration.

In His love

Paul

This year passover day is April 4/14th day. This is from Barney Kasdan's website.
"April 4, Saturday, 6:30pm, Passover Seder--held at the Doubletree Hotel Mission Valley, San Diego. Tickets are: Adults/$55. and Kids/$25. (12 & under). Includes parking and beef, chicken or vegetarian dinner. Tickets on sale after Shabbat service or through the office. Invite a Jewish friend to this holiday celebration! on April 04 2015 12:00 AM" http://www.kehilatariel.org/wordpress/?page_id=91

Look when they will be eating it. In the evening/night, during the twilight hrs. into the night, the Biblical date changes from the 14th day to the 15th day. This is between the evenings/eve/twitlight.
Count from there. Twilight change on the 15th to the 21st is seven days.

Deu 16:2 And thou shalt sacrifice the passover-offering unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to cause His name to dwell there.
Deu 16:3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for in haste didst thou come forth out of the land of Egypt; that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

I meant to mention this, back when you said that the YLT was a bad translation, 'unleavened things'.
Actually it is more accurate. The Hebrew word, matstsah, does not mean bread. It means sweetness so sweet things. Leavened things are 'châmêts', pungent, sour, bitter things.
I think back then they mostly leavened breads and cakes. Today we leaven those and cookies, too. But it includes anything that is made with leaven (sourness, bitterness). It was the type, the physical to teach a lesson about the spiritual.
Those definitions compare to what Paul said....
1Co 5:8 so that we may keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened food of sincerity and truth.

 

[Deborah13]

Sorry for the one more post my brother but how do you see this church history?

Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, and disciple of the Apostle John (around 130 -150A.D.), also believed that Nisan 14 was the correct time for the feast, and went to Rome to discuss this with Anicetus, bishop of Rome who held to a Sunday observance. So Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons – 155 A.D.) tells us “And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points…For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance in his own way, inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep the observance in his way, for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him.”

Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus, (130 – 196 A.D.) writes, “All who follow the practices of the gospel as understood by at least the Apostles John and Philip observe the Passover on the 14th, which is the evening of the portion of the day we commonly would call the 13th.”

And also said “Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles . . . and, moreover, John, who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined on the bosom of the Lord . . . and Polycarp in Smyrna, who was a bishop and martyr . . . Those observed the fourteenth day of the Passover according to the gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith" (Anti-Nicean Fathers, vol. 8, pp.773-774).

Apollinarius, Bishop of Hierapolis (ca. A.D. 170), tells us, "The 14th Nisan is the TRUE PASSOVER OF OUR LORD, the great Sacrifice; instead of the lamb, we have the Lamb of God"

Later Irenaeus (around 175 A.D.) again wrote to (Pope) Victor of Rome and asked that Victor not break the unity with "the many bishops of Asia and the East, who WITH THE JEWS CELEBRATED THE PASSOVER on the fourteenth day of the new moon" (NPNF, 2nd, III, p.370).

Eusibius The History of the Church writes “A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior's Passover.”

How is it that all these men taught either by the Apostles or by those the Apostles taught sis not understand it as you are teaching. This was the tradition handed down by the Apostles, should we not at least accept it even though we now follow the traditions of Rome?

Paul

Please, when you are quoting from another site, give the link to that site so others can read the full statement without searching for it. Thank you.

 

[Sinthesis]

Final entry on this side rail....

Exodus 12

All of this IS the 14th

keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk. (which is the beginning of the 14th)

7 And they shall take of the blood, and put it on the two side-posts and on the lintel, upon the houses (plural) wherein they shall eat it. (not in the tabernacle or Temple)

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, (in that night, in that night…the 14th) roast with fire, and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; its head with its legs and with the inwards thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning (the morning time of the 14th); but that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

That's YHVH's command in the Torah folks, deal with it as you will...

The Lord bless

Paul

Unfortunately your interpretation of 'between the evenings' in Exodus 12:6 fails when examined in the light of other scripture.

Deu 16:6 - But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

Lev 23:5 - In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 - And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.​

The only way to rectify these several verses is that the paschel lamb is slaughtered at the end of the 24hr period of the 14th. Then the Seder feast is held towards the beginning of the 24hr period of the 15th.

 

[Deborah13]

Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus, (130 – 196 A.D.) writes, “All who follow the practices of the gospel as understood by at least the Apostles John and Philip observe the Passover on the 14th, which is the evening of the portion of the day we commonly would call the 13th.”

What is Polycrates talking about? Is it the first day of Unleavened Bread or is he talking about the Lord' Supper which Jesus did with His disciples? That would have been on the 14th, which we would call the night of the 13th. This was before He was crucified the same day of the 14th and died during the twilight hrs.,, His body prepared for the tomb, laid in the tomb, all before dark of the beginning of the 15th.
The Last Supper was an early passover meal. The night of the 14th which would be our 13th.
I find this interesting. Did the Apostles observe the Jewish Passover or did they observe the Last Supper on the same night Jesus did?

For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance in his own way, inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep the observance in his way, for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him.”

I think Polycarp, celebrated it as a remembrance of Him as the passover lamb, not a remembrance of the night of the Last Supper before He died. And this could have been his and Anicetus differences.

Was Polycarp, observing it by the OT commands of Unleavened Bread because the apostles did but Anicetus observing the night of our 13th because that was when Jesus had the Last Supper with his disciples and said ''do this is remembrance of Me." Anicetus said, he was doing as his presbyters did before him.

Sounds like the beginnings of denominational things to me. When should we observe the Last Supper?
When He did, the night of the 14th.
No, between the eve at the end of the 14th and the 15th, when the twilight time turns to the 15th and into that night?

 

[brother Paul]

Deu 16:3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened breadtherewith, even the bread of affliction; for in haste didst thou come forth out of the land of Egypt; that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

Exodus 12:18?

 

[Deborah13]

Deu 16:3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened breadtherewith, even the bread of affliction; for in haste didst thou come forth out of the land of Egypt; that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

Exodus 12:18?

Exo 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
Exo 12:19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses; for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, .....

If it's eight days total then there could be no leaven in the house for eight days, not seven days as v19 says.
Jewish Publication Society - JPS
Deut. 16:1-8
Deu 16:2 And thou shalt sacrifice the passover-offering unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to cause His name to dwell there.
Deu 16:3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith,....
Deu 16:4 And there shall be no leaven seen with thee in all they borders seven days; neither shall any of the flesh, which thou sacrificest the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
Deu 16:5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover-offering within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee;
Deu 16:6 but at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to cause His name to dwell in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover- offering at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
Deu 16:7 And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose; and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
Deu 16:8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread; and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God; thou shalt do no work therein.

Lev 23:5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at dusk, is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD; seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread.

"The passage in Dt 16:1-8 is talking about the Feast of Unleavened Bread and there can be no doubt that "the first day" in v.4 refers to the first day of Unleavened Bread. We have already seen in Lev 23:6 that the First Day of Unleavened Bread falls out on the 15th of the First Month. When we look at Lev 23:5-6 and Dt 16:4 together it becomes clear that the Passover Sacrifice is brought at the end of the 14th of the First Month between the two evenings and eaten that same evening on the 15th of the First Month. The period of "between the two evenings" is reckoned as both the end of the 14th (Lev 23:5) and the beginning of the 15th (Dt 16:4)!"
http://www.karaite-korner.org/passover.shtml#when_was_passover

It took me forever, to get this straight in my head!!!

 

[rstrats]

Perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing where a daytime and/or a night time was/were forecast to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could possibly have taken place.

 

[brother Paul]

Exodus 12

3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, in the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. (and remember this was in each person’s house in Egypt AND that the evening is the very beginning of the 14th)

7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses (plural), wherein they shall eat it.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. (Notice they must eat it in THAT night…on the 14th)

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning (that is the morning portion of the 14th…the evening and morning are one day); and that which remains of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

OKAY? So do you see what is the Torah? The Mitzvot of God not men? And verse 14 tells us

And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever. (It is NOT the feast of Unleavened Bread…no part of it)

Now read and hear…

15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. (The Feast of Unleavened Bread)

ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out (this was on the 15th) of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance forever.

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

Now count the days…14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21...according to Torah (not men) we can see this is 8 days altogether (and Unleavened Bread is for 7 days)….

So we have first Passover proper (on the 14th), followed by Seven days of the feast of Unleavened Bread…count it again for yourself….the 1st day of Unleavened Bread is a Shabbat and the 7th day is a Shabbat (whatever weekday it begins on)…

According to the written Law, the Passover Seder is to be celebrated (by God’s command, not mens) on the 14th of Nisan and fully consumed before the morning…

Leviticus 23

5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even IS the Lord's passover.

6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month IS the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

or

Number 9:5

And they kept the passover ON the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.

The practice of keeping the Passover ON the 15th was a rabbinical tradition that developed after the Babylonian Captivity and IS NOT Torah….

 

[rstrats]

brother Paul,

Your last post is an issue for another topic.

Perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.

 

[brother Paul]

We are to interpret scripture in light of scripture.

Lev 23:5 - In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 - And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 - In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 - But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Num 28:16 ¶ And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
Num 28:17 - And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Num 28:18 - In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:​

Passover begins on the 14th, the paschal lamb is slaughtered on the 14th, but the Seder feast is on the 15th.

Re=read Le v::5,6 and Numbers 28:16,17 outloud. The Passover IS the 14th (to be eaten by morning) the 1st day of UB is the 15th and goes through the 21st (7 days....count them). During the Torah UB they do not eat meat (no time to stop and cook running from Pharaoh's army)....If you simply count....Passover PLUS 7 days of UB you come to the 21st....the fist day of UB (the 15th) is a Shabbat (whichever day it falls on)

 

[brother Paul]

Wow! All I can say is that it's very entertaining watching a conversation that pops up this time every year where people can't agree on 3 days in the tomb!

One says that Jews just counted parts of days, another acknowledges that these is something to 3 days and 3 nights but "to make it fit" he must have have been including time other than his death, and yet another says that if he spent 3 full days in the tomb he'd be rising the 4th day and all sorts of entertaining spin. But to Jesus, a day has 12 hours. He said so.

Here. I'll make it simple. 1) Suppose at midnight March 27 I say I'll be back in three days (or the third day). When will that be? 2) Or again, let's compare to hours. Midnight to one in the morning is the first hour. They say the 3rd watch ended the third hour after midnight. What time is that?

Correct answers are 1) Midnight March 30 and 2) 3AM.

Now do the same thing if Jesus was crucified late 14th of Nisan in the afternoon and interred to start Nisan 15. Now do the same thing as my example. What date is that? What date is now starting? And if that is Firstfruits (Sunday) project back to the 15th and 14th, and you have your correct answers for the day of the crucifixion.

With all due respect, I especially address the Friday crucifixionists. Face it. Had you not heard that story, and read the bible uninfluenced by traditions, there is no way you'd get Friday sundown until pre-dawn Sunday morning as 3 days and 3 nights. Even a little kid knows to ask that much. It won't fit. Period.

You are not counting a "day" in the Hebrew sense...a new day begins at sundown (evening then morning) not at midnight....thats Romanish western thinking

 

[brother Paul]

With all due respect, I especially address the Friday crucifixionists. Face it. Had you not heard that story, and read the bible uninfluenced by traditions, there is no way you'd get Friday sundown until pre-dawn Sunday morning as 3 days and 3 nights. (Edited, ToS 2.4, rude and belittling comment. Obadiah) It won't fit. Period.

Simply PROVES 12:40 is not literal....