Matthew 19:12 - "Eunuches from the womb"?

[felix]

You wouldn't believe the amount of pastors that say the same thing about Adam's deception. It's the spirit of anti-christ in christianity. They speak evil of dignitaries.

The spirit of anit-christ have no fear in condemning and speaking evil about the prophets and characters in the scriptures.

This is also the doctrine of the Nicolatians! Spots in your feast, and garments is pollution, defilement.

By the way, the "government" in 2Peter 2:10 is not the world government, but Christ's government, which is the body.

Sorry precepts, I don't require your definition of spirit of anti-christ.

(1John 4:3) and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

 

[precepts]

Sorry precepts, I don't require your definition of spirit of anti-christ.

(1John 4:3) and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

I didn't realize I was giving it. My Bad!

 

[handy]

felix,
I'm surprised that you believe Adam did not sin. This certainly isn't what the Scriptures teach.

My monitor is shot so I'm using our wii and tv to respond...which is really cumersome so I'm not going to quote here... but if you read 1Tim 2:14 it states that Adam was not decieved but Eve was.
Also Romans 5:14 and 15 speaks of Adam's sin and trangression. Verse 16 says the gift isnot like that `which came through the one who sinned', speaking of Adam.

Gah... I've been following this thread for several days but now without a monitor it's too hard to respond...

 

[felix]

handy,

Yes. Technically, Eve was deceived and Adam disobeyed God which is sin against God by the definition of it.

However, Adam's case must be dealt differently because he is innocent without any knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve does not even know that obeying God is good and disobedience is evil. If this is the case, how can their sin be even considered as a sin?

 

[Pizzaguy]

However, Adam's case must be dealt differently because he is innocent without any knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve does not even know that obeying God is good and disobedience is evil. If this is the case, how can their sin be even considered as a sin?

WHERE did you get THIS theology from? :o

 

[felix]

WHERE did you get THIS theology from? :o

Scripture.

• The very reason why salvation by God is only to mankind and not for angels and esp. for Satan.
• The very reason why Satan can't repent and escape second death.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I have NO CLUE what your two points have to do with Adam's sin and fall.

 

[reba]

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam disobeyed a direct order.

 

[handy]

Felix it seems as if you are ... how to say this ... over thinking Adam's innocent state without taking into account what Scripture clearly states: Adam sinnes. He transgressed. He offened.

Your point can certainly be made regarding Eve... but not Adam. Eve was decieved, Adam was not.

Which would be why sin entered into the world through the man and not the woman.

The fact that Adam was not decieved means he knowingly and deliberately disobeyed God's clear and direct commandment... which is the very definition of sin, is it not...

 

[Pizzaguy]

However, Adam's case must be dealt differently because he is innocent without any knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve does not even know that obeying God is good and disobedience is evil. If this is the case, how can their sin be even considered as a sin?

There is no font big enough for this: WHAT?

 

[felix]

I have NO CLUE what your two points have to do with Adam's sin and fall.

Adam and Eve were innocent when they sinned against God. But Satan wasn't innocent when he sinned in his heart against God in Isa 14:14. God saves the innocent as in Job 4:7 but the wicked shall perish as in Ps 37:20. There is no reason for God to save mankind. If God saved only mankind and did not save Satan, then He shows partiality among His creations but scripture says in Deut 10:17 that God shows no partiality.

Hence, mankind is worthy to be saved but Satan is not. What makes mankind worthy is being innocent when the sin was committed. Satan was not innocent when he committed his sin.

This is one of the very reasons God Himself came in flesh to save mankind because he is being punished to death for sins committed during his innocent times.

I will try my best to explain:
It is like saying to a 4 or 5 year old who does not know good or evil, not to eat the poison kept at the center of the room and also warned if disobeyed, she will die. Now a stranger who does not like you came into the room and find your child playing and started a conversation by saying if that poison is taken, you will become an adult immediately and can go out and play and do whatever you want which you parents are restricting. So, the young child took the poison and ate. When you came into the child's room to play with her, you find her in serious trauma and pain. You ask her did you eat the poison in the middle of the room and the young child said the stranger cheated me that I will become an adult instantly. Now, you desperately want to save your child and run to the hospital and they discover that the poison had damaged both kidneys of the child and she cannot live without any kidneys. So, you decided to donate your own kidneys to make her live. So, you say to your child, if you get my kidneys and eat the medicines, you will surely live. So, the child received your kidneys and lived.

Now, do you consider the sin of your 4-5 yr old as a sin?

 

[reba]

Adam was created as a man not a child.

 

[felix]

Adam was created as a man not a child.

True, but you missed the point of not knowing good and evil. The best example for someone who does not know good and evil is "a child" as in Deut 1:39.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Felix:

So, if Adam was innocent - then I had no sins to be forgiven of at the age of 17 after all!

See, I had NEVER been in church, as my parents didn't believe. THEREFORE, I was innocent, and praying the sinner's prayer didn't save me - because I did not need saving!

Now, tell me where I am wrong here, because I don't think I am wrong, according to your theology.

 

[felix]

Felix it seems as if you are ... how to say this ... over thinking Adam's innocent state without taking into account what Scripture clearly states: Adam sinnes. He transgressed. He offened.

Your point can certainly be made regarding Eve... but not Adam. Eve was decieved, Adam was not.

Which would be why sin entered into the world through the man and not the woman.

The fact that Adam was not decieved means he knowingly and deliberately disobeyed God's clear and direct commandment... which is the very definition of sin, is it not...

You don't seem to understand the heart of the matter.

The mind state of Adam is just that of a 4-5 year old for he does not have the ability to discern good and evil. He does not understand obeying God is good and obeying wife on this particular matter is evil.

Also, I disagree on the way sin entered. Sin entered the world through the fruit. If sin entered through Adam and not Eve, God neither cursed Eve to death nor cursed her to become dust. God never told Eve not to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil too. If you read correctly, it was told only to Adam before the creation of Eve.

 

[felix]

Felix:

So, if Adam was innocent - then I had no sins to be forgiven of at the age of 17 after all!

See, I had NEVER been in church, as my parents didn't believe. THEREFORE, I was innocent, and praying the sinner's prayer didn't save me - because I did not need saving!

Now, tell me where I am wrong here, because I don't think I am wrong, according to your theology.

Who told you age of 17 is still a child? Well, that's according to culture but not according to scripture. Anyone able to discern good and evil is not a child anymore. The closest age to identify this is when the child attains puberty (pref, the age of 12 taking Jesus as example who was able to question the teachers of the temple). The actual age could vary from child to child.

 

[handy]

It seems as if we are wandering away from the subject which is the difference between idolatry and adultery...

I have to agree with much of what Jethro has said. Idolatry is different than adultery...

Several things to think about...

If the two are the same...why two separate commandments... and why put adultery on the second tablet if it is speaking solely a sin against God?

Sheesh its too hard to do this from the wii...

Hopefully it won't be too long before we can get a new monitor... but I can't focus on my thoughtd enough doing it like this.

 

[reba]

Good thought Handy totopic

 

[handy]

You don't seem to understand the heart of the matter.

The mind state of Adam is just that of a 4-5 year old for he does not have the ability to discern good and evil. He does not understand obeying God is good and obeying wife on this particular matter is evil.

Also, I disagree on the way sin entered. Sin entered the world through the fruit. If sin entered through Adam and not Eve, God neither cursed Eve to death nor cursed her to become dust. God never told Eve not to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil too. If you read correctly, it was told only to Adam before the creation of Eve.

This is confusing.... you seem to understand that Eve was decieved but not that Adam knowingly disobeyed God.

This is going to sound blunt but I'm really handicapped by my lack of a keyboard.... It matters not ahat you 'believe' about how sin entered into the world... Romans 5 is more than clear that sin and death entered through Adam's sin.

As for it being the fruit remember our Lord told us that it's not what enters a man's mouth that defiles... Mark 7:14-23

 

[Elijah674]

handy,

Yes. Technically, Eve was deceived and Adam disobeyed God which is sin against God by the definition of it.

However, Adam's case must be dealt differently because he is innocent without any knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve does not even know that obeying God is good and disobedience is evil. If this is the case, how can their sin be even considered as a sin?

1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

As far as who first sinned is concerned, it was satan (Lucifer) in heavens rebellion.
And on earth it was Eve's that was deceived, yet, Adam walked into sin with wide open eyes.

Now, if you are saying that the sin that they sinned was not the sin unto death, I would agree with that only because God made a way back . [[Not before He had!]] (from 1 John 5:16)

Meaning that it is now the MATURE SIN that is the Sin Against The Holy Ghost. It is not the one time sin, yet the one time sin from Adam on would of had him die eternally without the Plan of Salvation being brought forward.

And as Adam + Eve's life now was without the Tree of Life being eaten they started on the downward path to death. Eternal death was their fate without God giving then [a way to be brought back]. And that way is called being BORN AGAIN. John 3:3-8 And even then it was totally CONDITIONAL upon OBEDIENCE. All power was supplied as seen in Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 to grow & mature!

Remember that even being created very good (Perfect unless you think that God deals with faulty material) these first Perfect two, were as babes at their creation, with NO Maturity. That is what the forbidden fruite was for, to test & have them mature.

And us??;) We find Rom. 8:1 Required First, (Born Again Acts 5:32) and then [US PERFECT BABE'S] see a verse 14 of FOLLOWING ON INTO MATURITY! (if we so 'freely' choose)

Based upon the Gen. 3:15's Lamb Offering pointing to Christ's death in their place through WORKING OBEDIENT FAITH, Adam & Eve could mature into PERFECT MATURE obedience.

And Gen. 4 finds that God even gave disobident Cain a second chance to be accepted. (ibid 7) Even note that there was never a recorded place in his [MATURING] life where he had not been Obedient. Yet, here we see God speaking directly to him in full maturity & he PRESUMPTOUSLY Disobeyed, & note who else was present & to who Cain would now DESIRE? This was the devils first fullfledged Sin Against The Holy Ghost CONVERT!

But NO, from Adams Ps. 19:13 Presumptious sin that leads to the Great Transgression all mankind were lost eternally without accepting the Plan of Salvation with OBEDIENT Working Faith! [James 2:26]

[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

--Elijah