Matthew 19:12 - "Eunuches from the womb"?

[Jethro Bodine]

Surely in their perfection creation, all was perfect, (except the full Maturity!) they had NO PREPENSITY to sin.

Adam and Eve were not perfect, they were blameless.

There was nothing to provoke them to sin and thus reveal their propensity to sin until the commandment was given.

They also lost the Rightousness of Christ & needed to be REBORN as do we. (that was their NAKEDNESS)

Adam and Eve were naked before they ate of the tree. They just didn't know it. The commandment revealed their nakedness. That's what 'law' does. It reveals the nakedness of mankind. Mankind is born blameless, then the command comes, provokes us to sin, and we die. The very command that was intended to give life "thou shalt not..." actually brings death. Romans 7 is where learn the meaning of the garden experience and how Adam is a pattern for all of mankind. Everyone of us has had a garden experience with the tree, the devil, and finding out we were born naked and unclothed.

 

[WIP]

Mankind is born blameless, then the command comes, provokes us to sin, and we die.

Does it provoke us to sin or just point it out to us?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, why is there a tree of knowledge of good and evil even required?

I'll borrow your answer:

"My mother used to say that you will never know what hunger is unless you are really starving."

Does this mean you cannot fathom what hunger is until you are actually hungry? Of course not.

When Adam ate of the tree he knew death, not just knew about it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does it provoke us to sin or just point it out to us?

I am at work right now and don't have the time to retrieve the reference (Lunch is over, gotta get back on the clock!) but I believe it's there in Romans 7...law provokes sin, not just reveals it.

 

[WIP]

I am at work right now and don't have the time to retrieve the reference (Lunch is over, gotta get back on the clock!) but I believe it's there in Romans 7...law provokes sin, not just reveals it.

Maybe these verses?

"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Is it then impossible to sin until someone knows the law?

 

[handy]

Maybe these verses?

"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Is it then impossible to sin until someone knows the law?

I was logging in to share these very verses, WIP.

As to your question, it's certainly possible to sin outside of knowledge of the law... All mankind can know there is a creator by observing creation... yet chooses to worship the created instead.

This is the beauty of the law... it doesn't leave us in ignorance, stumbling in darkness, perhaps findind God but more likely sinking further and further into deception

The law shines the light of God's righteousness for us that we may accurately know our condition and the gospel shines the light of God's grace to us so that we need not remain in such a condition.

 

[Elijah674]

Scripture.

• The very reason why salvation by God is only to mankind and not for angels and esp. for Satan.
• The very reason why Satan can't repent and escape second death.

You say:
'The very reason why salvation by God is only to mankind and not for angels'.

You could be right. But that would through a wrench into Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15. Do you not think that the Matt. 25 50% that sounds like the comparison & the Rev. 12 actual fact of 1/3 of the angels maturing into total rebellion did not indeed leave the very small remnant of the rebellion being saved by repentence the same way that we are.. by faith in Christ's Future Sacrifice?? (time is not important as I see it)

It is hard for me to find any way that repeated history would not have had the rebellion seen with Christ not being been able to win some of the fallen back who had not grown maturely into the sin Against the Holy Ghost. And Rev. 14:6's Eternal Gospel surely (for me at least) covers angels who had repented.

And that is just my belief. Another thought is Cain being the First son of Adam being seen in total rebellion. I believe that Luciffer was also Christ's first created angel. And proof?? For me I Just need these Eccl. verses given above even in twice documention + the way that we are told that God documents things below!;)

That of Gen. 41:32
[32] And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

And the context? I 'myself' find this a truthful fact with all of the Lords prophecies or dreams. If anything does not have a double meaning like does Matt. 24's repeats, we are told that. Like Nah. 1:9 or the world flood. + what would you do with verse 14 of Matt. 24??? (based on Rom.10:17-18 AD 60 & Col. 1:23 AD 64's Inspired fact!)

--Elijah

 

[felix]

I'll borrow your answer:

"My mother used to say that you will never know what hunger is unless you are really starving."

Does this mean you cannot fathom what hunger is until you are actually hungry? Of course not.

When Adam ate of the tree he knew death, not just knew about it.

Adam and Eve does not know what death is. No one had ever died to know and understand what death is.

When you said:

Does this mean you cannot fathom what hunger is until you are actually hungry?

My answer is: Of course Yes !! I NEVER know but bad a pregnancy would give pain because I never had actually felt it. One scale gives the pain as breaking legs... and I am not sure about it either. Simply because, I had never felt it! I hope you understood.

 

[felix]

He obviously remained celibate all His days, living as a eunuch for the Lord.

Being celibate is different from living as an eunuch. An eunuch will have testicles cut off and will not have any temptations esp. over women. However, scripture says, Christ had all temptations as us.

(Heb 4:15) For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

An eunuch does not have these temptations.

 

[felix]

Sounds like intellect to me.

No one, until now, has told me to "take the role of Satan" in order to understand and/or know God.

No. to understand the story from the devil's perspective and the reasons behind why he want to deceive mankind.

And you are quoting lines from a MOVIE now? YOU? I like how Elijah gets all of his stuff from scripture, he seems to have no need for movie lines. Perhaps his posts are hard to read - I wonder if the rest of us had his time in the word - would his posts be so hard to read then?

What I quoted is nothing so special about any movie. I just wanted to highlight the fact that even Jesus knew He was going to die. It was until the very point when He was about to be betrayed, He pleaded with the father to take away the cup but left it to the father. Even as Christ, although He know what death is, there was a difference when He walked through it.

But again, I find it absolutely laughable that you tell me that Adam, WHO WALKED WITH GOD in the garden did not understand and could not be held accountable for his actions. Yet I, at age 17, raised in a Godless home, is expected to understand and be accountable for my actions. Felix, THAT is twisted theology wrapped in your intellectual attempts to make scripture say what you actually DO believe it says.

Adam does not know death. He was innocent. These are from scripture.

At age 17, you know what is good and evil. Although I said the age around 12, to exactly say at what age a child becomes an adult is when the child realizes that s/he is naked and must cover his/her shame.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Adam and Eve does not know what death is. No one had ever died to know and understand what death is.

When I said: Does this mean you cannot fathom what hunger is until you are actually hungry? Of course Yes !!

Let's not stray away from the point you were making.

It's absurd to think Adam didn't know eating of the tree was in even the littlest of ways bad/evil before he ate of it, and that he had to actually eat it to find that out. Even Eve reminded the serpent what God had said about the tree when he tempted her. And you say Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil/ right and wrong before they ate? That's not reasonable.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Being celibate is different from being a eunuch. An eunuch will have testicles cut off and will not have any temptations. However, scripture says, Christ had all temptations as us.

(Heb 4:15) For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

An eunuch does not have these temptations.

True. So, what do you suppose Jesus' point is, then, if eunuchs can't care one way or the other about marital bliss?

It's for our benefit, so we who are not literal eunuchs can approach marriage from a spiritual attitude and accept the fate of a eunuch and live without the joys of marriage and not divorce for the sake of the kingdom if circumstances require that.

As one who is in the unique spot that I am, but hardly being a eunuch, Jesus' teaching about eunuchs, marriage, and the kingdom of God has much value to me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it then impossible to sin until someone knows the law?

No. Sin is not taken into account apart from law:

"13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law." (Romans 5:13 NIV)

Law makes that which is already sinful utterly sinful and fully known for what it truly is, magnifying and increasing it:

"...in order that sin (already in the world) might be recognized as sin, it (sin) used what is good (law) to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin (already in the world) might become utterly sinful (and fully known for what it is)." (Romans 7:13 NIV parenthesis mine)

"20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Romans 5:20 NIV)

 

[Elijah674]

- "Eunuches from the womb"? Christ was tempted in all points as we? Heb. 4:15
He never married, so was He tempted as we?
[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Christ knew not as the first Adam what death was, but did as the second Adam? I can't buy into that! Adam was created with perfect wisdom in the image of God. He BELIEVED GOD! If there was never sin + death, which there was not, then God did not know what it was all about either by some folks logic. (logic? whatever?)

I am a firm believer that I do not have to do every sin in satans book to know what sin is. (or its results!) And surely the first lamb killed by Adam as required, would have each one after eating at his heart! Gen. 3:15

And did Adam need to die to understand death? Hardly! And the rebellion of his first son?? Who do you think knew for sure that that even happened because of their sin???

1 Tim.
[14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(in other words he knew exactly what he was doing! and went 'openly' against God. THINK! If not why was satan not in transgression? 1 John 3:4 All that means is that Adam was not the first of sinning, but he did indeed 'openly & knowingly' follow suit! Gen. 3:6)


No, I think that when God states a FACT, I KNOW THAT WHAT HE HAS TOLD ME IS THE TRUTH! Mal. 4:1-4 + Obad. 1:16 & Gen. 3:3 are FACT! Do I need to go through this before I can believe it?? Hardly.

Mal. 4
[1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
[2] But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
[3] And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Does one need to see this to believe God?)

Obad. 1
[15] For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
[16] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they [[shall be as though they had not been]].

(and to be as though you had never been, is pre/understood by you?? GONE! BLOTTED FROM ETERNITY, just cease to exist! Perhaps some remember what was before they were born? and that that would be needed to know & understand this?)

Gen. 3
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And [the woman said] unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, [[lest ye die]].

So what we hear is that because there never was death, that she + Adam knew not what death was? I can't buy into that either, regardless of the plan of Salvation not being needed yet, Adam still knew that he had NO PREEXISTANCE until his being created. And if that was not enough, he sure understood that Eve was not YET! Gen. 2:22-23

And as stated before, surely Adam & Eve's first day of life had God gave them a 7th Day Sabbath Sermon of WARNINGS as required history repeats to us. Such as the verses above!

--Elijah

 

[felix]

And Rev. 14:6's Eternal Gospel[/B] surely (for me at least) covers angels who had repented.

Nope.

(1Pet 1:12) To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -- things which angels desire to look into.


Gospel, law, prophecies and the entire Scripture was written for mankind - not for angels.

 

[felix]

Let's not stray away from the point you were making.

It's absurd to think Adam didn't know eating of the tree was in even the littlest of ways bad/evil before he ate of it, and that he had to actually eat it to find that out. Even Eve reminded the serpent what God had said about the tree when he tempted her. And you say Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil/ right and wrong before they ate? That's not reasonable.

It is scriptures that say, Adam and Eve does not know good and evil. If that is not reasonable to accept, it is scriptures that you don't accept, not me.

 

[felix]

True. So, what do you suppose Jesus' point is, then, if eunuchs can't care one way or the other about marital bliss?

It's for our benefit, so we who are not literal eunuchs can approach marriage from a spiritual attitude and accept the fate of a eunuch and live without the joys of marriage and not divorce for the sake of the kingdom if circumstances require that.

As one who is in the unique spot that I am, but hardly being a eunuch, Jesus' teaching about eunuchs, marriage, and the kingdom of God has much value to me.

You missed my previous conversations. My only point is Jesus was not a eunuch. That's all I am saying.

I do value being a eunuch much higher. Even in the OT the LORD says,

(Isa 56:4-5) For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.

I have no issues with anyone becoming an eunuch to avoid temptations for the sake of Kingdom of Heaven. However, my ONLY point is, Jesus is not an eunuch.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is scriptures that say, Adam and Eve does not know good and evil. If that is not reasonable to accept, it is scriptures that you don't accept, not me.

But I just showed you Eve knew that it was wrong as indicated by her initial resistance to the serpents questioning of what God had said. Can't argue with that.

 

[Pizzaguy]

It does not matter to Felix what the book says... it matters to Felix what he BELIEVES.

I have no idea where this theology comes from. After over 35 years, I just don't know where he is getting this.

 

[felix]

But I just showed you Eve knew that it was wrong as indicated by her initial resistance to the serpents questioning of what God had said. Can't argue with that.

What Eve said has nothing to do with her knowing good and evil. She just said what God said.

If any mother tell her innocent little child not to speak with the neighbor, this little child if happen to speak to that neighbor for they are bad, will say to that neighbor itself, that s/he must not talk to them because her mother told that they bad?

This is what I call "innocent". I am really sorry if you can't identify what innocent really means. Try to learn this innocence from little children because, it is a prerequisite to enter "Kingdom of Heaven".