Matthew 22:41 What think ye of Christ? Whose Son is he?

[2Pillars]

I believe YHWH is Jesus Christ himself, the Son of the Invisible God Almighty Father - whose name is not yet known to any man, at this time.

Do you agree?

Matthew 22:41-46
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Your thought please...


God Bless

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:o

 

[wavy]

^You sure about that?

As far as the OP, he is the Son of David. He was just making a point. Displaying the ignorance of some of the Jewish leaders, imo.

 

[mutzrein]

If Jesus claimed to be God, then there is no argument. On the other hand if your interpretation of scripture leads you to believe that He is God, (perhaps supported by a Catholic creed) then that is completely different.

 

[2Pillars]

Dear Friends,

In John 8:53-55 we read the following exchanges between the pharisees and Jesus....

John 8
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is MY FATHER that honoureth me; OF WHOM YE SAY THAT HE IS YOUR GOD:

55 YET YE HAVE NOT KNOWN HIM; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Do you see or understand the implication of what Jesus had just told the Jewish Pharisees who were biblical scholars and authoritative of the Scripture at that time? He just told them that they have NOT known his Father -- of whom they claimed him to be their God!!!

How could that be possible when in fact, YHWH himself appeared unto their forefathers on several occasion in the Old Testament and introduced himself as their only God? Yet, Jesus rebuked them all and told otherwise, see!?

The answer is very simple -- for me at least - - Jesus is YHWH himself, the Son of the unknown Invisible God Father, of whom NO man knew of his NAME at this time.

Revelation 19
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; AND HE HAD A NAME WRITTEN, THAT NO MAN KNEW, BUT HE HIMSELF.

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


God Bless

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Matthew 22:41-46
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Your thought please...

My thought is this exchange is a fabrication - it never happened (either that or the Pharisees were in a drunken stupor at the time) There is no way they would have been confounded at so simple a question. The Messiah is David's lord the same way a man's son who becomes president would be his father's president. It has to do with status or appointment. "Lord" and "lord" in verse 44 are two different words - the LORD who says, "Sit thou on my right hand..." is YHWH, the "lord" he is speaking to is not, unless we are to believe in more than one God.

 

[2Pillars]

Dear BardtheImpaler,

The useage of God as "One" (echad) in the Bible is a collective one. Genesis 2:24 best explain this scenario.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE [echad] FLESH. (Genesis 2:24)

As you can see, based on the Mystical Union of God, husband and wife is ONE [echad] - not two individuals - male & female, correct?

The key to understanding what I am saying is the MYSTICAL UNION that God made -- If humans are to count the husband and wife, humans will say they are two. Likewise, if normal humans will count the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, humans will say they are three.

But let’s allow God to do the counting this time, how does He count the husband and wife. According to Jesus Himself, they are ONE! So in God’s accounting, they are one. But humanly speaking they are two.

The same Mystical Union applies to the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are One [echad] God (elohim) - collectively that is!!!

For there are THREE (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one (unity). 1 John 5:7

BTW, the Lord of David is YHWH as documented in the OT. The question now becomes... whose Son is He (YHWH) ?


God Bless

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:

 

[BradtheImpaler]

The useage of God as "One" (echad) in the Bible is a collective one. Genesis 2:24 best explain this scenario.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE [echad] FLESH. (Genesis 2:24)

As you can see, based on the Mystical Union of God, husband and wife is ONE [echad] - not two individuals - male & female, correct?

The key to understanding what I am saying is the MYSTICAL UNION that God made -- If humans are to count the husband and wife, humans will say they are two. Likewise, if normal humans will count the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, humans will say they are three.

But let’s allow God to do the counting this time, how does He count the husband and wife. According to Jesus Himself, they are ONE! So in God’s accounting, they are one. But humanly speaking they are two

"One flesh" is obviously metaphorical. Are the man and wife, however, one being or two? You have been well propagandized, as I suspected. Who told you echad was a "collective" one? Do you know what the NUMBER one is in Hebrew? Guess. That "one" is not 2 or 3. If you want to find the truth, take a Strong's Concordance and look up the appearences of the word "one" (which is echad over 900 times in the OT) See how many times it is used to denote an individual person, place, or thing.

The same Mystical Union applies to the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are One [echad] God (elohim) - collectively that is!!!

If what you say is true then the term "God" is a misnomer when applied to someone who is not a someone but a "They". How would you refer to the gods of Mt. Olympus? "They/Them", because they are more than one god. A God who is supposedly BOTH "He" and "They" is a meaningless absurdity - it's something inbetween polytheism and monotheism, and there is nothing inbetween.

For there are THREE (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one (unity). 1 John 5:7

That verse is a late interpolation, added by unscrupulous scribes to reinforce the doctrine of the Trinity which the church decided to adopt.

BTW, the Lord of David is YHWH as documented in the OT. The question now becomes... whose Son is He (YHWH) ?

Certainly David's Lord is YHWH, but YHWH is also Christ's lord - the difference being Christ's lord has no lord over him. The "buck stops there" because the true God is the one with no one over him.

 

[Imagican]

I believe YHWH is Jesus Christ himself, the Son of the Invisible God Almighty Father - whose name is not yet known to any man, at this time.

Do you agree?

Matthew 22:41-46
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Your thought please...


God Bless

Nice posts Brad. I see you're still trying. Bet it scares 'em to death when they are forced to face others that have done their homework. And what's worse, it doesn't really take homework to accept Christ as the 'Son or God'. But it certainly takes an outside influence to hear or to believe that the Bible states that which it really doesn't.

2Pillars,


Amazing that you would choose to believe something that contradicts what Christ Himself stated. Where did you 'learn' to believe this from?

If you will remember when asked of His return, the answer that Christ gave was that ONLY the Father Himself knew the answer to this question.

And. the evening of His arrest? Allow this cup to pass over me? And Christ asking His Father to forgive them for they know not what they do? Christ asking the Father why He had been forsaken? Forsaken by Himself? Come on man?

It's really simple. The seed placed in Mary was OF GOD. Jesus WAS/IS the Son of God. That's what He called himself. And Jesus called God His Father. What possible reason would it serve for 'man' to make-up something other than what the Word offers? Accept the answer and you will see where this teaching came from.

And with ALL this evidence that refutes the teachings of the Catholic Church, there are still those that adamantly defend their heretical teachings and insist upon trying to force them upon others. Amazing.

 

[wavy]

"Lord" and "lord" in verse 44 are two different words - the LORD who says, "Sit thou on my right hand..." is YHWH, the "lord" he is speaking to is not, unless we are to believe in more than one God.

Let's take it back to where he is quoting from:

Psalm 110:1
יהוה said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

The "lord" Yahweh is speaking to has been told to sit at his right hand.

Psalm 110:5
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

This here in the Masoretic text has been rendered "Adonai". However, it is commonly known that this is a Masorete corruption, as they changed "YHWH" to "Adonai" over 130 times in the Hebrew.

So the same "lord" spoken of in verse 1 at the right hand of Yahweh is the same Yahweh spoken of in verse 5.

 

[wavy]

Do you know what the NUMBER one is in Hebrew? Guess. That "one" is not 2 or 3. If you want to find the truth, take a Strong's Concordance and look up the appearences of the word "one" (which is echad over 900 times in the OT) See how many times it is used to denote an individual person, place, or thing.

This is true. That's why I do not believe the Shema is good evidence for the plurality of Yahweh.

Why would Moses' point here to mean that Yahweh is a collective? That destroys the context.

He said "YHWH Elohenu (Yahweh [is] our God), YHWH ehcad (Yahweh is a collective?????)".

It would make more sense to translate this "Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone".

This would fit the flow of his statement.

I do believe in the plurality of Yahweh though. It is found all over the Hebrew...

Certainly David's Lord is YHWH, but YHWH is also Christ's lord - the difference being Christ's lord has no lord over him. The "buck stops there" because the true God is the one with no one over him.

Indeed.

1 Corinthians 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Not to mention the numerous passages where Messiah calls the Father Yahweh, "my God".

 

[mutzrein]

2Pillars

Maybe you should change your name to 1Pillar.

You know if Jesus is seated next to the Father then he's beside himself.

Sorry, couldn't resist a couple of quick quips - no offense intended.

But seriously it is a catholic doctrine. Look into it.

Regards

 

[2Pillars]

Dear Everybody,

No man knows the name of the invisible Almighty God Father at this time, until one overcometh at the end - only then, the name of his Father will be revealed as promised.

Look, read and learn:

Revelation 3

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

While Jesus ALSO made a promise to reveal his new name to those who overcometh at the end, note that the context of text regarding the name of his God does not state that his Father will have a "NEW NAME".

And IF YHWH is the invisible God Father, then Jesus is only pulling your legs - promising you the name of his Father's that you already know and revealed in the Scripture, therefore, we don't have to overcome anthing anymore - if we continue to follow everybody' illogical assumption here.

Either Jesus is deceiving you or everybody here opposing is ignorant of the Scripture, which one?

Revelation 19

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, THAT NO MAN KNEW, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Ephesians 3

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Conclusion: Jesus is YHWH himself, the Son of the invisible God Father - whose name is not documented in the Scripture.


God Bless

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:x

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

 

[2Pillars]

Dear ÃÂoppleganger,

Is there something you wish to refute? or is there something you have a question about? Just write them here and I will be glad to explain them for you.

I realize that someone like you cannot understand Scripture, since it is foolishness to you. I would be happy to help.



You're Welcome

 

[wavy]

No man knows the name of the invisible Almighty God Father at this time, until one overcometh at the end - only then, the name of his Father will be revealed as promised.

Look, read and learn:

Revelation 3

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

This does not say no one knows his name. This just says his name will be written upon people.

Zecharyah let's us know what this is:

Zechariah 14:9
And יהוה shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be יהוה one, and his name one.

Yahweh tells us numerous times in his word what his name is. An example:

Isaiah 42:8
I am יהוה: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

As far as Messiah's new name? I believe he will be universally known as Yahweh himself, carrying that name. Right now people call him other things. His proper earthly name, "Yahoshua", and other names like "Jesus" (which I do not call him).

While Jesus ALSO made a promise to reveal his new name to those who overcometh at the end, note that the context of text regarding the name of his God does not state that his Father will have a "NEW NAME".

Exactly.

And IF YHWH is the invisible God Father, then Jesus is only pulling your legs - promising you the name of his Father's that you already know and revealed in the Scripture, therefore, we don't have to overcome anthing anymore - if we continue to follow everybody' illogical assumption here.

Not really. He did not say he would reveal it. He said write it. And even then, people do not accept "Yahweh" as his name.

While I believe it is, some people think it is "Jehovah" or that no one knows so we shouldn't worry about it. Some think he has many names that are all equally important and that "YHWH" is just one of them.

Some think his name changed to "Jesus", and that "Yahweh" is his "old testament" or "Jewish" name.

So some people do need to have this name written upon them...

Either Jesus is deceiving you or everybody here opposing is ignorant of the Scripture, which one?

Neither.

Revelation 19
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, THAT NO MAN KNEW, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

I confess that I don't know, but this is obviously symbolic. I don't know what this means.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

roll:

 

[2Pillars]

Dear wavy,

You seems to be in continued DENIAL mode, heh? :-D

Do you also think Jesus was just pulling our legs because you already know his God's name -- "Yahweh"-- before you overcometh the end?

So, are you saying that Revelation 3:12 is translated wrong? :roll:

Anyway, perhaps, it's better for me to ask you a simple question instead, based on yours and everybody' else religious view.

Here’s a simple question for the opposing party for the record....

Who do you think the Lord of Host being referred to as our GOD - THY MAKER and thine husband in Isaiah 54:5?

"For THY MAKER is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth SHALL he be called."

Multiple Choice: (a) the Father (b) the Son (c) I do not know

Please list your answer here - Everybody is welcome.


God Bless