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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Matthew 7:21-23
- Thread starter tjw
- Start date
francisdesales
Member
tjw said:
Same thing as James 2 or 1 Cor 13 or Gal 6.
Faith without love cannot save. And merely DOING things is not an act of love.
"Lord, Lord" is an act of faith, but Christ said they wouldn't enter the Kingdom because they lacked the motive of love (Matthew selected this Jesus saying for consumption of the community he was writing to in Antioch - no doubt, there were hypocritical Christians who thought "proper doctrines of faith" were enough to enter the Kingdom. Matthew has Jesus saying otherwise to Christians).
There are still numerous Christians who need to remember that hypocritical Christians are not in the Kingdom.
Regards
watchman F
Member
Seems like this is too simplistic, but this is what it means to me.tjw said:
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It means exactly what it says....There are many people who not only make false confessions, but are honestly deceived in their belief that they are saved. They truly think they are believers, but in reality they are on their way to Hell. Why because they do not do the will of the Father, but rather continue in their sin. The question is how can they continue in their sin and still believe themselves saved? Because they do not know Christ. They believe in a false christ they have created in their minds through false teaching and false understanding of scripture. They do not believe on Christ as the scripture has said, and therefore the Christ of scripture doesn't know them either.
.
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There are two kinds of people who are saying Lord Lord. One kind is saying Lord Lord, the other kind is saying Lord Lord and they are doing the will of the Father of Jesus. Then he describes the kind that is just saying Lord Lord. It is not that they are doing nothing. They are doing something. They are doing things in the name of Jesus. Yet Jesus says that he never knew them. Then he says that he will tell them to depart from him. But what is the key is that he will call them workers of iniquity. That is what Jesus thinks of them and their works.
Paul says in Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.†Paul is speaking concerning works that are not works of iniquity. They are works that are ordained by God. Nor are they works done in the name of Jesus. They are works that are done in Christ.
Today, in Christianity, there are those who have “ministriesâ€. It is common to have a ministry. Christians must have a ministry in order to “do the works of Godâ€. They do these ministries in the name of Jesus. They do not realize that they are not doing the will of the Father, and that their works are considered by Jesus as works of iniquity. These works of ministry are done in the name of Jesus Christ, not in Jesus Christ. These works of ministry are a part of the religion that is Christianity. They have nothing to do with the will of the Father nor with being in Christ. The ones who have ministries are very religious people, but they are not in Christ. They have not been transferred into the Kingdom of the Son. They will, as a consequence, not experience the Kingdom of heaven.
It is difficult for such people to see what they are doing and what they are not in the eyes of Jesus. But there is still hope for such people, if they can understand what it means to repent and believe into Jesus Christ and then to do the will of the Father, the works ordained by God. Jesus would not have even mentioned this situation if it were not possible that even these can have their eyes opened and be in Christ.
JamesG
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There are two kinds of people who are saying Lord Lord. One kind is saying Lord Lord, the other kind is saying Lord Lord and they are doing the will of the Father of Jesus. Then he describes the kind that is just saying Lord Lord. It is not that they are doing nothing. They are doing something. They are doing things in the name of Jesus. Yet Jesus says that he never knew them. Then he says that he will tell them to depart from him. But what is the key is that he will call them workers of iniquity. That is what Jesus thinks of them and their works.
Paul says in Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.†Paul is speaking concerning works that are not works of iniquity. They are works that are ordained by God. Nor are they works done in the name of Jesus. They are works that are done in Christ.
Today, in Christianity, there are those who have “ministriesâ€. It is common to have a ministry. Christians must have a ministry in order to “do the works of Godâ€. They do these ministries in the name of Jesus. They do not realize that they are not doing the will of the Father, and that their works are considered by Jesus as works of iniquity. These works of ministry are done in the name of Jesus Christ, not in Jesus Christ. These works of ministry are a part of the religion that is Christianity. They have nothing to do with the will of the Father nor with being in Christ. The ones who have ministries are very religious people, but they are not in Christ. They have not been transferred into the Kingdom of the Son. They will, as a consequence, not experience the Kingdom of heaven.
It is difficult for such people to see what they are doing and what they are not in the eyes of Jesus. But there is still hope for such people, if they can understand what it means to repent and believe into Jesus Christ and then to do the will of the Father, the works ordained by God. Jesus would not have even mentioned this situation if it were not possible that even these can have their eyes opened and be in Christ.
JamesG
E
elijah23
Guest
It means to me that it isn’t good enough to say you are a Christian. You also have to make a reasonable effort to do the Lord’s will.tjw said:
francisdesales
Member
JamesG said:
James,
Are you saying that Christians should not have ministries? That they should ignore the Spirit's prompting to spread the Word of God in a specific and individual manner that suits the gifts that the Spirit has given them FOR THAT PURPOSE???
The "in the name of Jesus" v "in Jesus", is that a discernible distinction, or is that some Protestant formula that I am not aware of?
Thanks
ArielIrene
Member
tjw said:
It's always best to read what has been written before any single verse or so.
Matthew 7:15 - 23 (New Living Translation)
15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
True Disciples
21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
In the last sentence of verse 23, the word knew means that He never had a personal relationship with them. They acted like they were ministers of the Gospel with gifts and power to cast out demons and perform many miracles. But they did this to deceive people and place stumbling blocks or steal their money or guide them away from the real truth. They never repented and never came to know Christ as Lord and Savior; they knew of him but were not in Him.
I believe verses 21-23 mean that those who pretend to be ministers in order to deceive unsuspecting Christians will be denied access to Heaven. Doing what the Father said to do simply means that we acknowledge we are lost without His Son, Jesus, repent of our sins, and accept Christ as our Lord and Savior - believing on the cross.
Being in Christ is the only thing that can produce the fruit of the spirit:
Galatians 5:22-24 (New Living Translation)
22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.
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Francisdesales
““The "in the name of Jesus" v "in Jesus", is that a discernible distinction, or is that some Protestant formula that I am not aware of?â€â€
Note the commentary after your post by ArielIrene. It is an excellent prelude to my own post.
It is true that “in the name of†generally means the same as the person in the Biblical writings. But it is Jesus himself that makes the distinction that the ones he is referring to as rejected has done things in his name, but that they were not using his name legitimately. They were usurpers of his name. They claimed to be representatives of Christ, but were not. This is something written in the Bible for our learning because it continues to be done today. And flagrantly under the authority of the denominations of Christianity. People are continuing to do things in the name of Jesus Christ apart from actually knowing Jesus or being known by him. And it is something that is, or should be, in contrast to those who are legitimately in Christ today. But being followers of Christianity more than they are of Jesus Christ, they are being deceived into believing that human ministries are legitimate ministries related to God. Thus, we have a multitude of personal ministries that are operating under the same principle that Jesus is condemning here. Would you consider the ministries that are against the Catholic Church to be the ministry of God? Consider it according to your own understanding.
Read my post again and perhaps you will see the difference that I was referring to. It is a difference between natural reality and the Reality that is in Christ, a difference between death in Adam and Life in Christ, a difference between evil that is of the flesh and the Good that is in Christ.
Perhaps you can better understand it as a matter of authority. The ones rejected did not have the authority to use the name of Jesus Christ for anything, because they were not related to him in any way. They claimed to be believers, and obviously thought they were legitimately true believers; but in the judgment of Jesus, they were not.
In regard to ministries, there are personal ministries that are of man and there is the ministry that is of God. Christianity is full of people who claim to have ministries from God, but their ministries are not the ministry that is of God. They only have ministries that are of man. They are personal natural ministries. They are not the ministry that is of the supernatural God in the supernatural Reality that is in Christ.
JamesG
Francisdesales
““The "in the name of Jesus" v "in Jesus", is that a discernible distinction, or is that some Protestant formula that I am not aware of?â€â€
Note the commentary after your post by ArielIrene. It is an excellent prelude to my own post.
It is true that “in the name of†generally means the same as the person in the Biblical writings. But it is Jesus himself that makes the distinction that the ones he is referring to as rejected has done things in his name, but that they were not using his name legitimately. They were usurpers of his name. They claimed to be representatives of Christ, but were not. This is something written in the Bible for our learning because it continues to be done today. And flagrantly under the authority of the denominations of Christianity. People are continuing to do things in the name of Jesus Christ apart from actually knowing Jesus or being known by him. And it is something that is, or should be, in contrast to those who are legitimately in Christ today. But being followers of Christianity more than they are of Jesus Christ, they are being deceived into believing that human ministries are legitimate ministries related to God. Thus, we have a multitude of personal ministries that are operating under the same principle that Jesus is condemning here. Would you consider the ministries that are against the Catholic Church to be the ministry of God? Consider it according to your own understanding.
Read my post again and perhaps you will see the difference that I was referring to. It is a difference between natural reality and the Reality that is in Christ, a difference between death in Adam and Life in Christ, a difference between evil that is of the flesh and the Good that is in Christ.
Perhaps you can better understand it as a matter of authority. The ones rejected did not have the authority to use the name of Jesus Christ for anything, because they were not related to him in any way. They claimed to be believers, and obviously thought they were legitimately true believers; but in the judgment of Jesus, they were not.
In regard to ministries, there are personal ministries that are of man and there is the ministry that is of God. Christianity is full of people who claim to have ministries from God, but their ministries are not the ministry that is of God. They only have ministries that are of man. They are personal natural ministries. They are not the ministry that is of the supernatural God in the supernatural Reality that is in Christ.
JamesG
francisdesales
Member
JamesG said:
James,
I strenuously disagree, because Jesus Himself said "a kingdom divided against itself must fall", and so you would have "demons" casting out demons in the name of Jesus? When someone performs a miracle in the name of Jesus, WHO is providing the "power" to do the said miracle? Man? Is it God verifying the Name, or is the demons responding to cast out their own to give glory and praise to God???
I would say that this is not a very good tactic for Satan, to cast out his own to give glory to God...
I would venture to say that AT ONE TIME, these were good and loving Christians, but that didn't guarantee their future. Recall that the Jews thought they were saved because they were the sons of Abraham in the flesh. Remember Christ's reaction to that? The pride of "belonging" appears to have insulated them, in their minds, from the possibility of falling into religious pride. Oh, we do continue to see that attitude, James. This is my take on these verses. NOT that "I never knew you", but "I don't know you any longer". All those good deeds, like casting out demons, is FORGOTTEN as if it never happened!
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die. Ez 18:24
Look closely at this verse, James. Note, that good stuff they did before? All forgotten because of their current wickedness....
JamesG said:
What do you think? The Word of God is spread throughout the world, the sick are cared for, the hungry and thirst are fed, those in jail are comforted, etc.... Jesus said this to John the Baptist. What is YOUR answer?
Regards
.
Francisdesales
I have no answer for you. You must of necessity see these verses in the light that you do. I do not see them in the same way. And no amount of bickering over different verses like two Protestants is going to change that. Your point of view is the general view of Christianity. Even half of Protestantism believes that one can jump in and out of Christ at will. And all of Christianity is in agreement with you about the matter of personal ministries. So you are not alone in what you believe. It only shows that you are a part of the human religion that is Christianity. I say what I see and there is nothing that I can do to change the situation in Christianity. That is too big for me. I leave that in the hands of God.
And your quote of Ezekiel 18:24 out of its Old Testament context is very revealing. But it is in keeping with your understanding of Salvation. The only response that I can give to you is that I do not understand Salvation in the same way that you do.
And I can say that you do not understand the difference between human ministries and the ministry of God in the same way that I do. You look on the outward expression of human ministries. And you emphasize the positive that they have done. What of the negative that they have done? Outwardly, secular ministries have done the same as those done in the name of Christ, good and bad. Do you discount the good in the secular ministries because they are secular? And if not, then what is the real difference, the name of Christ? All that I can say is that you do not understand the difference between human ministries and the ministry of God.
JamesG
Francisdesales
I have no answer for you. You must of necessity see these verses in the light that you do. I do not see them in the same way. And no amount of bickering over different verses like two Protestants is going to change that. Your point of view is the general view of Christianity. Even half of Protestantism believes that one can jump in and out of Christ at will. And all of Christianity is in agreement with you about the matter of personal ministries. So you are not alone in what you believe. It only shows that you are a part of the human religion that is Christianity. I say what I see and there is nothing that I can do to change the situation in Christianity. That is too big for me. I leave that in the hands of God.
And your quote of Ezekiel 18:24 out of its Old Testament context is very revealing. But it is in keeping with your understanding of Salvation. The only response that I can give to you is that I do not understand Salvation in the same way that you do.
And I can say that you do not understand the difference between human ministries and the ministry of God in the same way that I do. You look on the outward expression of human ministries. And you emphasize the positive that they have done. What of the negative that they have done? Outwardly, secular ministries have done the same as those done in the name of Christ, good and bad. Do you discount the good in the secular ministries because they are secular? And if not, then what is the real difference, the name of Christ? All that I can say is that you do not understand the difference between human ministries and the ministry of God.
JamesG
.
Jasoncran
That does seem to be the general idea of those who believe in the efficacy of human works in relation to salvation. As one who believes that neither human faith or human works is what results in Justification, I have to disagree with that idea. We are Justified through the faith and works of Christ, if we are in Christ.
JamesG
Jasoncran
That does seem to be the general idea of those who believe in the efficacy of human works in relation to salvation. As one who believes that neither human faith or human works is what results in Justification, I have to disagree with that idea. We are Justified through the faith and works of Christ, if we are in Christ.
JamesG
.
Jasoncran
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that I am saying that you are believing in a different Christ than myself. No, I have never implied that at all. There is only one Jesus Christ, no matter how anyone may understand or misunderstand him. Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in the same Christ that we all know about. They just don’t understand that he is Divine. They only see his humanity. That doesn’t mean that they are believing in a different Christ than everyone else.
No. The only distinction that I make is that there are those who are truly in Christ through believing into Christ and being baptized into Christ; and there are those who are simply believing in Christ in an outward way as if he is simply a historical figure. That kind of faith will do them just as much good as believing in Buddha or in George Washington as historical figures. There is no real “organic†relationship with the Body of Christ. And that makes a lot of difference.
What is being said in Matthew 7:21-23 reflects the thinking of Jesus Christ on that matter. One would think clearly. But when one believes in a human interpretation of these verses, the reality of what these verses are saying through the Spirit of God is not so clear. In point of fact, the reality of what these verses are saying is replaced by the human interpretation.
I am aware of those who use the Christianity terminology of believing in Christ, but it is obvious that their experience has been believing into Christ so that they are truly in Christ. But there are others who also use the same terminology who are obviously merely religious people who are not in Christ at all. Those of us who see the difference can only try to explain that there is a difference and then leave it in the hands of God to make it real to those who need it through the witness of the Spirit of God.
Read my last three posts and the previous post of Francisdesales on the Catholic Concepts thread on the 1 on 1 forum. You will perhaps get an idea of why I see a difference and why it is very important to me.
JamesG
Jasoncran
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that I am saying that you are believing in a different Christ than myself. No, I have never implied that at all. There is only one Jesus Christ, no matter how anyone may understand or misunderstand him. Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in the same Christ that we all know about. They just don’t understand that he is Divine. They only see his humanity. That doesn’t mean that they are believing in a different Christ than everyone else.
No. The only distinction that I make is that there are those who are truly in Christ through believing into Christ and being baptized into Christ; and there are those who are simply believing in Christ in an outward way as if he is simply a historical figure. That kind of faith will do them just as much good as believing in Buddha or in George Washington as historical figures. There is no real “organic†relationship with the Body of Christ. And that makes a lot of difference.
What is being said in Matthew 7:21-23 reflects the thinking of Jesus Christ on that matter. One would think clearly. But when one believes in a human interpretation of these verses, the reality of what these verses are saying through the Spirit of God is not so clear. In point of fact, the reality of what these verses are saying is replaced by the human interpretation.
I am aware of those who use the Christianity terminology of believing in Christ, but it is obvious that their experience has been believing into Christ so that they are truly in Christ. But there are others who also use the same terminology who are obviously merely religious people who are not in Christ at all. Those of us who see the difference can only try to explain that there is a difference and then leave it in the hands of God to make it real to those who need it through the witness of the Spirit of God.
Read my last three posts and the previous post of Francisdesales on the Catholic Concepts thread on the 1 on 1 forum. You will perhaps get an idea of why I see a difference and why it is very important to me.
JamesG
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Jasoncran
Yes, that is true. But their misunderstanding of Jesus is due to believing in the Book of Mormon that says that. They too have a misunderstanding of Jesus Christ. And one could almost say that it is a different Jesus. But in their case I leave that in the hands of God rather than judge them for it. Even in their case i will present what I know to be true. It is all that we can do. They do have the same New Testament that we have. Smith did not make any "corrections" in that text so far as I know. He only made changes in the first few books of the Old Testament. So it is up to them to agree with the witness of the Spirit in them or not.
JamesG
Jasoncran
Yes, that is true. But their misunderstanding of Jesus is due to believing in the Book of Mormon that says that. They too have a misunderstanding of Jesus Christ. And one could almost say that it is a different Jesus. But in their case I leave that in the hands of God rather than judge them for it. Even in their case i will present what I know to be true. It is all that we can do. They do have the same New Testament that we have. Smith did not make any "corrections" in that text so far as I know. He only made changes in the first few books of the Old Testament. So it is up to them to agree with the witness of the Spirit in them or not.
JamesG
francisdesales
Member
JamesG said:
I have made my point and I think it effectively explains the situation... Unless you think men can cast out demons of their own volition, the verses in question cannot be taken literally. And if you look at the rest of chapter 7, you'll find there is very little to be taken "literally". Ez 18 has God speaking, as does Mat 7, addressing a similar circumstance - a man who moves from righteous to wicked ways. It certainly DOES apply, clarifying the words of Christ. You have no answer because your "once saved always saved" utterly fails to explain the situation here. How can Christ "never know someone" who has cast out a demon in the name of Christ??? Please...
Now, if this doesn't fit your "version of Christianity", and you must feel the need to belittle me because I feel called to minister to other Christians, then I have no answer for you, James. I will keep you in my prayers, although no doubt, in your mind, my "human version of Christianity" is a waste of my time...
Regards