MESSIANIC JUDAISM

[jasonc]

Come on Jason, anethema?
Get serious.
Have you ever seen a Torah?
Maybe you don't understand what I am talking about.
First five books of the Bible?
Show me where it says Jewish women can get a divorce.

I have a chumash
the tanakh ,so what they do Shabbat ,its not sin .

did slavery and in the bible ,was it and polygamy considered sinful ?

no,God tolerates it and limited the polygamy from kings and bishops.

on divorce that's another thread .its ok that you don't want to be attend yeshiva or a talidum.

 

[D-D-W]

And they actually sell those?
Someone does that to make a living?

Yes they do. Every traditional synagogue I know of has at least one of them. This is a view of the Torah Ark at Central Synagogue in New York, one of the largest Reform congregations in the US.
They have 8 showing and this is old, they have at least 2 more in there at present.

I was talking about a Torah that had several volumes and cost several thousand dollars.
That was back in the 1980's.

I think you are meaning the Talmud. The Torah scroll is the 5 books of Moses hand written by a scribe. The Talmud is commentary and was written between 200 and 500 ad. Currently you can get a full set of the Babylonian Talmud in 73 volumes from Artscroll publishers for about $2700. They have not completed the Jerusalem Talmud yet, only individual volumes are available.

 

[D-D-W]

It is the teachings of Judaism that is against people eating pork or shrimp. They are the ones that have food laws, and require strict adherence
I was asking him what he believes, since he stated there were many different views within the Messianic Community.

I was hoping for some friendly conversation, and to get to know him.

I will take you at your word on that last point, and hope this does not turn into a doctrinal war.

Yes there are many opinions. As to adherence to Torah commands, I take the published opinion of the Tikkun branch of Messianism. That is based on the decision of the apostles and elders in Acts 15. Gentile believers in the Messiah have 4 laws to keep:

1) No idols. 2) No sexual sin. 3) Do not eat strangled meat. 4) And abstain from blood.

Since that was written specifically to gentile congregations, and the conversation where that is recalled in Acts 21, it was NOT applied to Jewish believers, Jews are still to keep to the Law of Moses, but NOT for salvation or covenantal status. It is keeping the sign of the covenants between God and Abraham and God and Moses.

Do I eat pork or shell fish? NO. Do I believe it would be a great sin against God if I did? Also NO.
I do it to honor His Word, and to reflect the values of the faith community I am in.

Do we meet in Saturday? Absolutely. Would it be a sin to meet on Sundays? Of course not. But there is no where in scripture that God changed His days of meeting from Saturday to Sunday. That was done by church leaders in the late 2nd century to avoid Roman persecution of anything that looked Jewish; following the Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad.

We believe that Rom 11.11 says that Gentiles who believe in Messiah are to make traditional Jews jealous. So are believing Jews. So we make our services as friendly to traditional Jews as possible. We want our faith in Messiah to NOT look pagan to them. Truth be told, most christian services from the Orthodox and Catholic to the free-for-all Pentecostals look VERY pagan to most Jews.

 

[JLB]

I will take you at your word on that last point, and hope this does not turn into a doctrinal war.

Yes there are many opinions. As to adherence to Torah commands, I take the published opinion of the Tikkun branch of Messianism. That is based on the decision of the apostles and elders in Acts 15. Gentile believers in the Messiah have 4 laws to keep:

1) No idols. 2) No sexual sin. 3) Do not eat strangled meat. 4) And abstain from blood.

Since that was written specifically to gentile congregations, and the conversation where that is recalled in Acts 21, it was NOT applied to Jewish believers, Jews are still to keep to the Law of Moses, but NOT for salvation or covenantal status. It is keeping the sign of the covenants between God and Abraham and God and Moses.

Do I eat pork or shell fish? NO. Do I believe it would be a great sin against God if I did? Also NO.
I do it to honor His Word, and to reflect the values of the faith community I am in.

Do we meet in Saturday? Absolutely. Would it be a sin to meet on Sundays? Of course not. But there is no where in scripture that God changed His days of meeting from Saturday to Sunday. That was done by church leaders in the late 2nd century to avoid Roman persecution of anything that looked Jewish; following the Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad.

We believe that Rom 11.11 says that Gentiles who believe in Messiah are to make traditional Jews jealous. So are believing Jews. So we make our services as friendly to traditional Jews as possible. We want our faith in Messiah to NOT look pagan to them. Truth be told, most christian services from the Orthodox and Catholic to the free-for-all Pentecostals look VERY pagan to most Jews.

Thanks for sharing some of your beliefs with us.





JLB

 

[JLB]

So we make our services as friendly to traditional Jews as possible. We want our faith in Messiah to NOT look pagan to them. Truth be told, most christian services from the Orthodox and Catholic to the free-for-all Pentecostals look VERY pagan to most Jews.

Maybe they wanted their services to appear friendly to traditional Gentiles.





JLB

 

[D-D-W]

Maybe they wanted their services to appear friendly to traditional Gentiles.

And that is not necessarily a bad thing, unless they start disobeying the 4 commands of Acts 15.

However it ignores the Great Commission to Gentile believers:

Rom 11.11b
salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them [traditional Jews] jealous.

That should be Job 1 of every gentile congregation - Make the Jews jealous.

 

[JLB]

And that is not necessarily a bad thing, unless they start disobeying the 4 commands of Acts 15.

Amen.


For me personally there are many more commands than 4, written on our heart and mind, as well as mentioned in scripture.


The works of the flesh that Paul mentioned to name a few.


Anything that violates love; loving God and loving our neighbor is not the way of righteousness.


By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:2-3



If I strongly desire my neighbors things (covet) so that I steal from him, then surely I am not loving my neighbor.




JLB

 

[JLB]

And that is not necessarily a bad thing, unless they start disobeying the 4 commands of Acts 15.

However it ignores the Great Commission to Gentile believers:

Rom 11.11b
salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them [traditional Jews] jealous.

That should be Job 1 of every gentile congregation - Make the Jews jealous.

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Romans 11:11-14


I believe Paul, being a Jew, and a Pharisee, could do that work of provoking others Jews to jealousy.

Gentiles, not so much.


I believe our number one job as Christians is to please God by being led by the Spirit.


But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18

Otherwise we fall victim to the works of the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16




JLB

 

[D-D-W]

I believe Paul, being a Jew, and a Pharisee, could do that work of provoking others Jews to jealousy.
Gentiles, not so much.

Well, on that you disagree with Paul. And many Jews that have come to faith in the last few decades say it was seeing something in believing Gentile friends and acquaintances that led them to the Lord.

At the beginning of most of our Saturday am services we have a video clip of a Jewish believer saying how they came to faith. That goes out on our live stream broadcast.

 

[JLB]

Well, on that you disagree with Paul. And many Jews that have come to faith in the last few decades say it was seeing something in believing Gentile friends and acquaintances that led them to the Lord.

I definitely believe in leading Jews to the Lord, and anyone the Spirit leads us to.

It’s the “provoking them to jealousy” that I believe Paul was referring to, that is something he himself, as a Jew and Pharisee, was uniquely equipped to do.


JLB

 

[JLB]

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:19-22


I believe if we narrow our focus to only relating to Jewish people we may miss out on opportunities the Spirit may desire for us.





JLB

 

[D-D-W]

I believe if we narrow our focus to only relating to Jewish people we may miss out on opportunities the Spirit may desire for us.

Our experience has been the opposite. By focusing on Jewish non believers, we get a LOT of gentiles coming to faith as well.

 

[JLB]

Our experience has been the opposite. By focusing on Jewish non believers, we get a LOT of gentiles coming to faith as well.

It’s been my experience that the gentiles who join Messianic Congregations are already saved.


Was that the case with you?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Our experience has been the opposite. By focusing on Jewish non believers, we get a LOT of gentiles coming to faith as well.

Thank you again, for taking the time to discuss your beliefs with me.


I appreciate it.


Maybe others would like to ask you some questions.


If you want to discuss a certain topic in the future, concerning these things please send me a pm.



This has been a good conversation.



Thanks, JLB

 

[D-D-W]

It’s been my experience that the gentiles who join Messianic Congregations are already saved.
Was that the case with you?

Already saved? Yes.

Gentile - that is questionable. I have found Sephardic (hispanic) Jews going back on my mother's side and a DNA test revealed on my dad's side that somewhere in his line are the Shapiro family who had a dynasty of Chassidic Rebbes and Rabbis.

I am not considered Jewish by the Orthodox or Conservative Jews. That heritage MIGHT be enough to get counted in the Reform movement. But none of their criteria are all that that scriptural.
So am I gentile or Jewish? Not sure how God counts it.

What I do know is God clearly directed (almost dragged) me into the Messianic movement.

 

[D-D-W]

Thank you again, for taking the time to discuss your beliefs with me.
I appreciate it.
Maybe others would like to ask you some questions.
If you want to discuss a certain topic in the future, concerning these things please send me a pm.
This has been a good conversation.
Thanks, JLB

You are most welcome and I appreciate the conversation staying civil.

 

[D-D-W]

Do you worship on Saturdays in a Synagogue?

Definitely.

Do you realize that separates you from all of Christianity besides yourselves.

Was not the same thing said of Martin Luther?

Besides, there are other Christian groups that meet on Saturday.

Do you believe this is what God wants of you?
Why?

Absolutely I do. The "Why" is a rather long story.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes they do. Every traditional synagogue I know of has at least one of them. This is a view of the Torah Ark at Central Synagogue in New York, one of the largest Reform congregations in the US.
They have 8 showing and this is old, they have at least 2 more in there at present.
View attachment 12486

I think you are meaning the Talmud. The Torah scroll is the 5 books of Moses hand written by a scribe. The Talmud is commentary and was written between 200 and 500 ad. Currently you can get a full set of the Babylonian Talmud in 73 volumes from Artscroll publishers for about $2700. They have not completed the Jerusalem Talmud yet, only individual volumes are available.

I'm impressed that someone does this.
I was always led to belief that the oldest boy would copy the Bible and when he got married, he would have a Bible for his own family.

But to make them that way and sell them?
That is for rich people to buy one and show off to his other rich friends.
Definitely a sign of financial success and to have people believe that you actually sit there and read it.

Now I am not being critical of financially successful Jewish people.
The best boss I ever had at a job was a rich Jew.
He even co-signed a loan for me so I could buy a used car because I had no credit.
That is a man of honor.

But growing up in a Jewish community, I've known Jews of every description.
But it took a born again Jew to invite me to an Orthodox service so I could experience what so-called religious Jews do.
My time with Jews for Jesus in Newton, Massachusetts is a time of fond memories.
But since those days my experience with Messianic Jews is one of separation from Gentiles.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Definitely.

Was not the same thing said of Martin Luther?

Besides, there are other Christian groups that meet on Saturday.

Absolutely I do. The "Why" is a rather long story.

Why do you answer a question with a question?
My question wasn't about Martin Luther but about you and your group.

 

[D-D-W]

I'm impressed that someone does this.
I was always led to belief that the oldest boy would copy the Bible and when he got married, he would have a Bible for his own family.

But to make them that way and sell them?
That is for rich people to buy one and show off to his other rich friends.
Definitely a sign of financial success and to have people believe that you actually sit there and read it.

Actually that is not done for individuals but for congregations.

You can get a Torah scroll machine printed on paper for between $50 and $150.

But growing up in a Jewish community, I've known Jews of every description.
But it took a born again Jew to invite me to an Orthodox service so I could experience what so-called religious Jews do.
My time with Jews for Jesus in Newton, Massachusetts is a time of fond memories.

Yeah - I have not had that much exposure to the Orthodox. A little more with the Chabad chassidic sect.

But since those days my experience with Messianic Jews is one of separation from Gentiles.

Again this is an issue that is not agreed upon. Some messianics want to be exclusionary and others do not. Personally I would not be part of a group that excludes gentiles.