[_ Old Earth _] Mimicking and Safety

[Asyncritus]

Of all the things a poor evolutionist has to find explanations for, mimicry is one of the worst.

I'm posting a few examples which I found on the internet. The source is: http://www.morning-earth.org/graphic-e/Transf-Mimic.html#trickone

This should properly be in the Science Forum, but I'd like non-scientific people to see these marvellous examples of our Creator's wisdom, and His willingness to confound the theory which has done so much damage to the world, in turning many away from God.

You need to ask 2 questions.

1 Which came first - the thing doing the mimicking, or the thing being mimicked?

2 How did that creature get those colours and patterns on its own bacK ???

Here's an example of what I mean:

View attachment 2145

There's a frog there. Can you see it? Is the frog smart enough to figure out that if he has those particular colours, he could hide really well in that there mud?

View attachment 2146

There's a butterfly there. Can you see it? It's mimicking an oak leaf. Now, did the leaf say : I can look like that there butterfly? Or did the butterfly say: Hey, it'd be a good idea if I looked like that leaf. I could hide pretty well there, you know!

View attachment 2147
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This is a moth on tree bark. How could it figure that one out?
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[Asyncritus]

Look at this one. Did the tree say, I want my bark to look like that there spider? Or did the spider say: I want to look like that there tree bark? I could hide pretty well there, and all those nasty birds won't see me and get me!

View attachment 2148
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[Barbarian]

It looks miraculous when you see the final results. But it's not so miraculous when you see that it can easily occur in small increments.

One of the most primitive of the Phasmidae (and possibly the world's rarest insect species) Lord Howe Island stick insect:

Slightly better mimic of vegetation:

A bit better yet:

Even better:
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTuc_fZ0yGSpJ1f3PA-2NPNhSEx5OZfA2rZGHsyPskL5skbifbFtcze_evm

Pretty darn good:
http://www.dannesdjur.com/bilder/phyllium_giganteum_1.jpg

All gradual and with no conscious effort. The length of these insects make it somewhat likely that they will be mistaken for vegetation. Those that look a little more like vegetation tend to be eaten less often than those that look less realistic. So gradually, they get better and better.

 

[abrown9]

There is an excellent essay in Gould's "Ever Since Darwin" about the evolution of mimicry.

 

[Gazelle]

Hmmm Didn't the snake mimic God in the garden originally?

 

[theLords]

It looks miraculous when you see the final results. But it's not so miraculous when you see that it can easily occur in small increments.

It's sad to see a Christian diminish God's praises for the sake of "being right"--creationist or evolutionist.

 

[Barbarian]

It's sad to see a Christian diminish God's praises for the sake of "being right"--creationist or evolutionist.

I don't think that was his intention. Sometimes people fail to see that there is something much grander and more wonderful in God's creation of a universe in which such amazing things can evolve according to His will, than it would have been if He had created each of them individually.

 

[Asyncritus]

I don't think that was his intention. Sometimes people fail to see that there is something much grander and more wonderful in God's creation of a universe in which such amazing things can evolve according to His will, than it would have been if He had created each of them individually.

I guess evolutionist wand-waving will never cease.

'It evolved gradually' he says.

Yeah, of course. And got eaten halfway along, and the species became extinct. That's evolution for you!

You see, the tree had to have bark so the insect could mimic it.

My questions are:

Which came first? The tree or the insect?

The accuracy of the copy demands a copier who could see the original, and had the technical wizardry to a. implement it and b. insert it into the genome.

An exact copy is no fluke, and does not happen by chance 'mutations' or 'natural selection. Look at this. Can you see him?

View attachment 2153

Now look at this. Can you see the bird?

View attachment 2154


View attachment 2155


or the fish?



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[Asyncritus]

Photographer's comment: Hidden within this picture are two cleverly camouflaged fish.

View attachment 2157

Hey, get that? CLEVERLY camouflaged. Hmmm. Isn't evolution clever? Everybody can recognise nonsense when they see it, can't they Barbarian?
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[Asyncritus]

Then. of course, there's the question, how does the fish/bird/insect know where to hide out?

They've got brains the size of peanuts or less, and they can STILL figure out where to hide.

Surely, no fish can do that? Wonder what Gould says?

 

[Barbarian]

Obviously, a partially-hidden organism is better than one that stands out noticeably. That's all it takes. In fact, the cases of industrial melanism show that it works rather well.

No planning or cleverness required. Just natural selection. It looks like magic when you see the final results. But the intermediate stages make it clear how it happens.

On the other hand, I suppose the creationist must believe that God just loved the intermediate species less than the best-adapted ones. Or something.

 

[Asyncritus]

Obviously, a partially-hidden organism is better than one that stands out noticeably. That's all it takes. In fact, the cases of industrial melanism show that it works rather well.

No planning or cleverness required. Just natural selection. It looks like magic when you see the final results. But the intermediate stages make it clear how it happens.

On the other hand, I suppose the creationist must believe that God just loved the intermediate species less than the best-adapted ones. Or something.

Exact copies don't just happen, as I said.

You are talking about the survival of the fittest.

I'm talking about the ARRIVAL of the fittest.

Could you address that point?

With reference to the fishes, I draw your attention to my signature remark. Any comments?

 

[Gazelle]

:

Is not man considered the highest evolved specie? Why then, do we not morph in color to hide from animal predators, or even predators of mankind such as abusers?

 

[abrown9]

:

Is not man considered the highest evolved specie? Why then, do we not morph in color to hide from animal predators, or even predators of mankind such as abusers?

That's a common misconception. There is no such thing as higher evolved or less evolved. Evolution has pushed each species to the point that they are the most fit for their niche/environment. Both man and the whale are mammals, but the whale is obviously way more fit for its environment, just like humans are much more fit for their environment.

Lots of times people think of evolution as having a goal or working towards something, when that is entirely not the case. Evolution just works with the conditions. Natural selection is an unthinking mechanism that merely allows species that are more fit in their particular environment to survive and flourish. If the atmosphere suddenly switched to being 95% Nitrogen, we would pretty quickly become very poorly adapted for survival and success (while the nitrogen fixing bacteria would quickly become the pinnacle of evolution )

 

[jasoncran]

I don't think that was his intention. Sometimes people fail to see that there is something much grander and more wonderful in God's creation of a universe in which such amazing things can evolve according to His will, than it would have been if He had created each of them individually.

cars evolve? who does something that happend by chance ie the human heart be so advance thus the humans who have intellgence cant seem to do better then that . and that evo random generatior isnt valid as it is an argument by analogy.

 

[Barbarian]

cars evolve?

No.

who does something that happend by chance ie the human heart

Doesn't happen by chance. Natural selection is the antithesis of chance.

be so advance thus the humans who have intellgence cant seem to do better then that . and that evo random generatior isnt valid as it is an argument by analogy.

It's easy to show that evolutionary processes lead to higher fitness. Would you like to see?

 

[Free]

Doesn't happen by chance. Natural selection is the antithesis of chance.

The antithesis of chance would be purposeful or intelligent selection, or creation. I would think that natural selection lies somewhere in between but closer to chance.

 

[Barbarian]

The antithesis of chance would be purposeful or intelligent selection, or creation.

Could be. But things like chemical reactions, stars, etc. are not the products of chance, but of regular, predictable laws. Also the antithesis of chance as much as evolution. They all happen to be creations of God.

I would think that natural selection lies somewhere in between but closer to chance.

It's very predictable. But chance is always part of the real world.

 

[Gazelle]

:

Is not man considered the highest evolved specie? Why then, do we not morph in color to hide from animal predators, or even predators of mankind such as abusers?

However the basic premise remains. If man is so well adapted, through evolution, to his environment, then why doesn't he have this capability, for he surely needs it more often than some would think.

 

[abrown9]

However the basic premise remains. If man is so well adapted, through evolution, to his environment, then why doesn't he have this capability, for he surely needs it more often than some would think.

Just because something could be advantageous to a species doesn't mean that it automatically will happen. A mutation has to happen (in this case many mutations would have to happen). Humans are so far diverged from species that camouflage/mimic that we would have to change a huge amount.

It would be advantageous for humans to fly, to photosynthesize, to be able to breath underwater, and to be able to turn lead into gold.... but the course of human evolution ran differently, adapting us perfectly for our niche, which was a social hunter/gatherer (and later an agrarian) society. Evolution pushed brain development forward in our species.

Every species is perfectly adapted for their environment. If they aren't, they will quickly die or adapt.