'Mind boggling' Trinity

[jaybird]

Thank you for confirming that Jesus was a real human being - a man - who came in the flesh. Was he more than a human being in the flesh?

i think He was. how much more, that i am still searching for.

 

[OzSpen]

i think He was. how much more, that i am still searching for.

Since you read the Bible, you will find that Jesus is:

1. God. In John 10:30 (ESV), Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one'. What did he mean? Look at how the Jews responded. They tried to stone him because, 'You, a mere man, claim to be God' (John 10:33 ESV). The Jews knew perfectly what Jesus was affirming. He was claiming to be God.
   
2. Man. This is affirmed in John 1:14 (ESV), 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us'. One of the first heresies the NT church faced was the teaching that he was not a man of flesh (see 1 John 4:2 ESV; 2 John 1:7 ESV).
   
3. Therefore, Jesus is the God-man.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

All you have to do is read what God had his prophets write about him and you will learn there's only one God. Anyone who trusts the New Testament to be accurate and true do not know who God is.

I agree that there is only one God.

You say that that 'Anyone who trusts the New Testament to be accurate and true do (sic) not know who God is'.

Are you saying the NT contains lies about the nature of God? If so, please state them.

 

[jaybird]

Since you read the Bible, you will find that Jesus is:

1. God. In John 10:30 (ESV), Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one'. What did he mean? Look at how the Jews responded. They tried to stone him because, 'You, a mere man, claim to be God' (John 10:33 ESV). The Jews knew perfectly what Jesus was affirming. He was claiming to be God.
   
2. Man. This is affirmed in John 1:14 (ESV), 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us'. One of the first heresies the NT church faced was the teaching that he was not a man of flesh (see 1 John 4:2 ESV; 2 John 1:7 ESV).
   
3. Therefore, Jesus is the God-man.

Oz

the "Jews" in question would be the ones plotting His death. "sons of the devil" according to Jesus and "brood of vipers" according to John. how much faith do we put in their belief on who Jesus was? how much focus could you put into reading the bible when at the same time you were plotting a murder with your friends?

John 8:22 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?”
they didnt seem to know what Jesus was talking about here?

so many want to focus on the pharisees 'You, a mere man, claim to be God' yet they forget, Jesus answered this statement
John 10 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

i dont think He is referring to all these gods as multiple Fathers.

John 10:30 Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one'.

Jesus prayed that we would all be one with Him the way He is one with the Father.
if one with the Father means Jesus is the Most High then one with Jesus would mean we are all Jesus. Jesus said this oneness was the same as He has with the Father, so its not 2 different things.it would have to apply the same to us as it does with Jesus.

 

[jaybird]

The New Testament wasn't written by God's servants who were being used to testify to the knowledge of Christ during the first witness of the millennium reign of Christ. It was written by men who practiced religion. They used words from the gospel of God that God's servants were writing and speaking for God but they had no authority from God to mix those words with their religious traditions and doctrines to subvert the only gospel of God into false gospels.

For example;

1. Water baptism is a Jewish tradition and has nothing to do with the knowledge of Christ.

2. Bodily resurrection is a pagan doctrine going all the way back to the early Babylonians who worshiped the beast.

3. There is no hell.

4. There is no one between God and man other than a chosen servant who writes and speaks for God during this millennium reign of Christ. This means the church hierarchy such as popes, bishops, cardinals, pastors, ministers, teachers, etc. are all men who believe they are between man and God.

5. Things like laying on of hands, speaking in tongues and other gifts of the spirit are pagan teachings that have nothing to do with Christ.

6. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are thought to be men who followed Jesus around and witnessed all that he had said and did. These are known as the gospels but Matthew, Mark and Luke were not authorized to write or speak for God as gospel preachers. They wouldn't have known what "gospel" or "christ" means.

7. Matthew, Mark and Luke contain almost identical paragraphs in each book that proves the author was the same author of all three books. Each servant of God who preaches the gospel for him never write or speak the same sentence. This way, we know who plagiarized our words.

8. If the gospel of God was about Jesus, then what gospel of God did Jesus preach and then told God's disciple's to believe in and obey?

a few points
2. Bodily resurrection
1 Sam. 2:6
The Lord kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
6. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
Luke was not one of the 12

 

[Mike]

2. Bodily resurrection is a pagan doctrine going all the way back to the early Babylonians who worshiped the beast.

3. There is no hell.

So, you are a Jehovah Witness? That explains why you've been so vehemently against the Triune nature of God and support the false doctrines I quoted.

 

[chessman]

i did present an issue.
a verse that says the Most High can not be tempted
a verse that says Jesus was tempted
combined with the trinity saying Jesus is the Most High.
this does not add up.

What definition of the Trinity are you using that says; "Jesus is the Most High"?

Luke 1:32 (LEB) This one will be great, and he will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. ​

Really, some more precise definitions of names/titles and the Trinity should be stipulated if you want to claim James 1:13 and Heb 4:14 contradicts Trinity claims.

The Trinity claims that I'm used to anyway does not claim that The Son is The Father. That's kind of the point.

Likewise, nor would I say that The Most High is The Son of The Most High. That's kind of the point.

Hebrews 4:15 (LEB) For we do not have a high priest [Jesus, The Son of God, see v14] who is not able to sympathize with our weaknesses, but who has been tempted in all things in the same way, without sin. ​

This verse says Jesus (The Son of the Most High yet also the Son of David, i.e. The God-Man) was tempted. It does not say that The Father (The Most High) was tempted. There is no conflict between James, Hebrews and an orthodox Trinitarian statement.

James 1:13 is referring to The Father.
Heb 4:15 is referring to The Son
The Trinty says The Father is not The Son.
Poof, no conflict.

James 1:13, 16-17 (LEB) No one who is being tempted should say, “I am being tempted by God,” for God [The Father, see v17] cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Do not be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of change. ​

 

[OzSpen]

the "Jews" in question would be the ones plotting His death. "sons of the devil" according to Jesus and "brood of vipers" according to John. how much faith do we put in their belief on who Jesus was? how much focus could you put into reading the bible when at the same time you were plotting a murder with your friends?

John 8:22 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?”
they didnt seem to know what Jesus was talking about here?

so many want to focus on the pharisees 'You, a mere man, claim to be God' yet they forget, Jesus answered this statement
John 10 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

i dont think He is referring to all these gods as multiple Fathers.

John 10:30 Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one'.

Jesus prayed that we would all be one with Him the way He is one with the Father.
if one with the Father means Jesus is the Most High then one with Jesus would mean we are all Jesus. Jesus said this oneness was the same as He has with the Father, so its not 2 different things.it would have to apply the same to us as it does with Jesus.

Are you saying all that to try to convince others and me that Jesus is not the God-man?

 

[OzSpen]

The New Testament wasn't written by God's servants who were being used to testify to the knowledge of Christ during the first witness of the millennium reign of Christ. It was written by men who practiced religion. They used words from the gospel of God that God's servants were writing and speaking for God but they had no authority from God to mix those words with their religious traditions and doctrines to subvert the only gospel of God into false gospels.

For example;

1. Water baptism is a Jewish tradition and has nothing to do with the knowledge of Christ.

2. Bodily resurrection is a pagan doctrine going all the way back to the early Babylonians who worshiped the beast.

3. There is no hell.

4. There is no one between God and man other than a chosen servant who writes and speaks for God during this millennium reign of Christ. This means the church hierarchy such as popes, bishops, cardinals, pastors, ministers, teachers, etc. are all men who believe they are between man and God.

5. Things like laying on of hands, speaking in tongues and other gifts of the spirit are pagan teachings that have nothing to do with Christ.

6. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are thought to be men who followed Jesus around and witnessed all that he had said and did. These are known as the gospels but Matthew, Mark and Luke were not authorized to write or speak for God as gospel preachers. They wouldn't have known what "gospel" or "christ" means.

7. Matthew, Mark and Luke contain almost identical paragraphs in each book that proves the author was the same author of all three books. Each servant of God who preaches the gospel for him never write or speak the same sentence. This way, we know who plagiarized our words.

8. If the gospel of God was about Jesus, then what gospel of God did Jesus preach and then told God's disciple's to believe in and obey?

These are nothing more than your false assertions. You have provided zero documentation here to prove your 8 points.

Which God are you serving?

 

[WIP]

i never understood how Jesus was tempted 3 times and according to James, the Most High can not be tempted.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Me tempting someone (putting a temptation before them) and someone being tempted (fighting the desire to indulge) are two different things. Just because I presented a temptation does not mean the other person was tempted by what I presented. Jesus was never tempted to give in to sin but temptations did present themselves.

Also, the scriptures you posted refer to God doing the tempting not God being tempted to sin.

 

[WIP]

Here's an example of what I'm trying to show. I am a heterosexual male. I have zero desire, tendencies, leanings, or attraction toward same sex attraction. If a man comes on to me he is trying to tempt me into an encounter or relationship. However, I can assure you that because I have zero desire to engage in that sinful behavior I would not be tempted in the slightest to reciprocate.

On the other hand, I do have desire, tendancies, leanings, and attraction toward the opposite sex. Therefore, if a woman was to come on to me trying to tempt me I can assure you that I would be tempted to indulge. I would have to resist that temptation.

 

[th1b.taylor]

sure i dont understand context, why dont we take these one at a time and you educate me.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
we have a high priest that has been tempted as we are. this is how i understand it but according to you the high priest "was not" tempted as we are?
please explain to me how this works?

sounds like i hit a nerve, sorry but thats what the scriptures say, Jesus said scriptures cant be set aside.

The chapter begins with verse one and the frist paragraph sets the subject/context of that chapter. The Greatest Context is the Bible from Gen, 1:1 through the very last worde of Rev. 22. The Greater Context is the Book the verse is found in and the Simle Context is the chapter the verse is located in. There is a Lessor Context found in the Paragraph where the verse is found, you have violated all of these.

 

[th1b.taylor]

where is the term "God-man" in scripture? just curious.
i am not making the scriptures say anything.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
the passage says he was tempted, just like we are.

A specific Term is not required to be found in the context of a book for a term to codify what is being taught. That ids akin to teaching the Rapture is a lie because the word is not found in the scrpture, anywhere.

 

[jaybird]

Are you saying all that to try to convince others and me that Jesus is not the God-man?

no. if this belief helps you dont change anything.

 

[jaybird]

Me tempting someone (putting a temptation before them) and someone being tempted (fighting the desire to indulge) are two different things. Just because I presented a temptation does not mean the other person was tempted by what I presented. Jesus was never tempted to give in to sin but temptations did present themselves.

Hebrews says Jesus was tempted.
you also have Jesus teaching be wise as serpents, satan is a serpent, James teaching that satan knows who Jesus is. so if Jesus is the most High and can not be tempted then why would satan even try? we know it cant be done but satan is not as wise as us and doesnt kjnow any better? not likely

Also, the scriptures you posted refer to God doing the tempting not God being tempted to sin.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

 

[jaybird]

The chapter begins with verse one and the frist paragraph sets the subject/context of that chapter. The Greatest Context is the Bible from Gen, 1:1 through the very last worde of Rev. 22. The Greater Context is the Book the verse is found in and the Simle Context is the chapter the verse is located in. There is a Lessor Context found in the Paragraph where the verse is found, you have violated all of these.

so little things such as
"one who in every respect has been tempted as we are"
we can black these out with a marker or edit them to mean what ever we want cecause they violate your context philosophy?

 

[WIP]

so little things such as
"one who in every respect has been tempted as we are"
we can black these out with a marker or edit them to mean what ever we want cecause they violate your context philosophy?

I see what you're saying. How do you explain it?

 

[WIP]

Hebrews says Jesus was tempted.
you also have Jesus teaching be wise as serpents, satan is a serpent, James teaching that satan knows who Jesus is. so if Jesus is the most High and can not be tempted then why would satan even try? we know it cant be done but satan is not as wise as us and doesnt kjnow any better? not likely


James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Jesus was tempted by Satan. In other words, Satan put the temptation before Him just as he puts temptation before us. The difference however is that Jesus is perfect and He is not tempted by the temptations put forth. We on the other hand are tempted by the temptations presented to us. When I see a beautiful woman pass by, many times before I even realize it is happening my mind has already succumbed to the temptation that was before me and by definition I have committed adultery with her in my mind. Jesus did not do this even when He was tempted by Satan.

 

[Free]

so little things such as
"one who in every respect has been tempted as we are"
we can black these out with a marker or edit them to mean what ever we want cecause they violate your context philosophy?

You hold it in tension with the understanding that Jesus is both God and man. It is only one piece of a very large puzzle--the greater context.

You seem to be doing the very thing you are accusing others of--you have yet to address the topic of this thread. Is that because it doesn't fit with your theology? You have only posted a couple of verses with which you seem to be saying that Jesus cannot be God. If that is not what you are saying, then I fail to understand what your whole point is for posting such a thing in a thread on the Trinity.

 

[OzSpen]

no. if this belief helps you dont change anything.

It's not a matter of if it helps me. That's pragmatism. It's a matter of whether it is the truth. Is it true that Jesus is the God-man? I'm not asking if it is true for me. I ask: Is it the truth?

Oz