Modern day Christian “Phariseesâ€

[shad]

Which organizations?

I was in Methodist, Baptists, Lutheran, community churches, Pentecostals and etc...

My experience is that conservatives tend not to be very tolerant of people who disagree with them. However, they seem to be people of a certain degree of discipline.

I am talking about their loose moral standards.

Meanwhile, liberals seem to be quite tolerant, but they don’t seem to realize that sin destroys.

Yes, and most mainstream churches seem very loose in their own churches' standards.

 

[elijah23]

Which organizations?

I was in Methodist, Baptists, Lutheran, community churches, Pentecostals and etc...

My experience is that conservatives tend not to be very tolerant of people who disagree with them. However, they seem to be people of a certain degree of discipline.

I am talking about their loose moral standards.

[quote:23wecip2]Meanwhile, liberals seem to be quite tolerant, but they don’t seem to realize that sin destroys.

Yes, and most mainstream churches seem very loose in their own churches' standards.[/quote:23wecip2]By “loose moral standards,†are you talking about premarital sex, extramarital sex, and homosexuality?

 

[shad]

By “loose moral standards,†are you talking about premarital sex, extramarital sex, and homosexuality?

There are many of them.

1. They divorce and remarry unbiblically.
2. They approve of homosexuality.
3. They dont take care of their body which is God's temple by being obese, smoking and etc...
4. They approve the military which kills their enemy even though Jesus says to love your enemy.

I think they are the main ones most churches are condoning comes to my mind.

 

[elijah23]

There are many of them.

1. They divorce and remarry unbiblically.
2. They approve of homosexuality.
3. They dont take care of their body which is God's temple by being obese, smoking and etc...
4. They approve the military which kills their enemy even though Jesus says to love your enemy.

I think they are the main ones most churches are condoning comes to my mind.

There does seem to be a lot of divorce and remarriage. The Catholics don’t allow that, though, I don’t think. I don’t give this issue a lot of thought, but you’re right.

There is a battle perhaps in many denominations over homosexuality. In some denominations, the anti-homosexuality people are in the majority, in others, the pro-homosexuality. I am opposed to homosexuality, premarital sex, and extramarital sex.

I don’t hear much talk about taking care of our bodies. I suppose it would be helpful if they did talk about it, though I don’t think you want to drive obese people or smokers out of your church, do you?

I don’t believe in the death penalty, but I have no problem with people killing to defend themselves or people they care about.

 

[Drew]

I think the purpose of religion is to develop a relationship with the Lord. The Pharisees, and I am no expert on the Pharisees, seemed to me to make the mistake of devoting themselves not to developing a relationship with the Lord, but to following a long list of useless rules. If so, are there Christians today that make the same mistake?

Well the Law of Moses is certainly not a "list of useless rules".

Now it is apparently true that many of the Pharisees strayed off into legalism. But we need to remember that the 613 "rules" of the Law of Moses come from the mouth of God - they are not man-made legalisms. Now the Law of Moses came to an end at the cross. Fine. But let's be careful - it was right and proper for Jews to pursue the Law of Moses in the time of its applicability.

This is not, of course, to deny the importance of a "relationship" with the Lord. But I think there is much more we are called to do than "be in relationship" to God. I would say that we are called to work for the implementation of the kingdom of God in our world, participating as we are gifted in God's great plan to reclaim and redeem all of His creation.

And. of course, having a relationship with God is part of this.

 

[francisdesales]

I think the Lord prayed that WE be all as one. If He didn't care, such a prayer was pointless. I think He accepts us where we are in Him. As we abide in Him, He abides in us. I think some have Christ abiding in them to a greater degree, and part of that is dependent upon the truth available and how they walk in it.

I don’t have Jesus—Jesus has me. I belong to him.

You mis-read what I wrote. I said have Jesus abide in Him. I didn't say anyone owns Jesus...

You can all join the United Methodist Church if you want, but I suspect you are happy in your own church, and that is good.

Being “one†doesn’t mean we all have to be Roman Catholic, does it? If we all believe in Jesus, then we are one. Right?

You are already "Catholic" by virtue of your baptism, at least that is how we look at things. Believing in Jesus doesn't make us one... Being one means sharing the same faith, as well. Judaizers believed in Jesus as the Messiah, what did Paul think about them???

Regards

 

[stovebolts]

I think the purpose of religion is to develop a relationship with the Lord. The Pharisees, and I am no expert on the Pharisees, seemed to me to make the mistake of devoting themselves not to developing a relationship with the Lord, but to following a long list of useless rules. If so, are there Christians today that make the same mistake?

Well the Law of Moses is certainly not a "list of useless rules".

Now it is apparently true that many of the Pharisees strayed off into legalism. But we need to remember that the 613 "rules" of the Law of Moses come from the mouth of God - they are not man-made legalisms. Now the Law of Moses came to an end at the cross. Fine. But let's be careful - it was right and proper for Jews to pursue the Law of Moses in the time of its applicability.

This is not, of course, to deny the importance of a "relationship" with the Lord. But I think there is much more we are called to do than "be in relationship" to God. I would say that we are called to work for the implementation of the kingdom of God in our world, participating as we are gifted in God's great plan to reclaim and redeem all of His creation.

And. of course, having a relationship with God is part of this.

Hi Drew,

While I agree with the jist of your post, I'd like to point out that one had to live out those 613 laws, and that's really where the issue came about. Taking the Sabbath as an example, some rabbi's ruled that if you spat on the ground, then it was considered tilling the ground and thus, a violation of the law regarding the Sabbath. Other rules were put in place on how far one could walk on the Sabbath before it was considered 'work' etc. In essence, it wasn't the 613, it was the how, and the importance of order placed on those 613 which Jesus questioned.

 

[shad]

There does seem to be a lot of divorce and remarriage. The Catholics don’t allow that, though, I don’t think. I don’t give this issue a lot of thought, but you’re right.

There is a battle perhaps in many denominations over homosexuality. In some denominations, the anti-homosexuality people are in the majority, in others, the pro-homosexuality. I am opposed to homosexuality, premarital sex, and extramarital sex.

I don’t hear much talk about taking care of our bodies. I suppose it would be helpful if they did talk about it, though I don’t think you want to drive obese people or smokers out of your church, do you?

I don’t believe in the death penalty, but I have no problem with people killing to defend themselves or people they care about.

Those are condoned by mainstreams, they don't seem to do anything about it, in fact, they keep quite about it because they dont want to lose their church members, which is very low of them. They sure working for themselves, not for God.

 

[elijah23]

Well the Law of Moses is certainly not a "list of useless rules".

Now it is apparently true that many of the Pharisees strayed off into legalism. But we need to remember that the 613 "rules" of the Law of Moses come from the mouth of God - they are not man-made legalisms. Now the Law of Moses came to an end at the cross. Fine. But let's be careful - it was right and proper for Jews to pursue the Law of Moses in the time of its applicability.

This is not, of course, to deny the importance of a "relationship" with the Lord. But I think there is much more we are called to do than "be in relationship" to God. I would say that we are called to work for the implementation of the kingdom of God in our world, participating as we are gifted in God's great plan to reclaim and redeem all of His creation.

And. of course, having a relationship with God is part of this.

I suppose “long list of useless rules†might have been an exaggeration—I never saw the list. However, I am referring to rules they added themselves—not the law of Moses.

And you have to admit—the Pharisees really did miss what was happening. The Lord was right there with them and they didn’t even know it.

 

[elijah23]

I think the Lord prayed that WE be all as one. If He didn't care, such a prayer was pointless. I think He accepts us where we are in Him. As we abide in Him, He abides in us. I think some have Christ abiding in them to a greater degree, and part of that is dependent upon the truth available and how they walk in it.

I don’t have Jesus—Jesus has me. I belong to him.

You mis-read what I wrote. I said have Jesus abide in Him. I didn't say anyone owns Jesus...

You can all join the United Methodist Church if you want, but I suspect you are happy in your own church, and that is good.

Being “one†doesn’t mean we all have to be Roman Catholic, does it? If we all believe in Jesus, then we are one. Right?

You are already "Catholic" by virtue of your baptism, at least that is how we look at things. Believing in Jesus doesn't make us one... Being one means sharing the same faith, as well. Judaizers believed in Jesus as the Messiah, what did Paul think about them???

Regards

My remark about Jesus owning me was simply to rebuff the idea that there are some of us who are better than others. The Lord loves us equally—he doesn’t play favorites.

I wouldn’t want to be a Roman Catholic, as I understand Roman Catholicism. The United Methodist Church is democratic—everyone’s opinion matters. In the Roman Catholic Church, as I understand it, the only people’s opinions who matter are a small group of self-appointed men, the clergy. Right? What does that do for church morale?

 

[elijah23]

Francisdesales, don’t get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for the Roman Catholic Church. I also have a lot of respect for my own church.

 

[francisdesales]

My remark about Jesus owning me was simply to rebuff the idea that there are some of us who are better than others. The Lord loves us equally—he doesn’t play favorites.

True, I certainly wasn't saying someone owns Jesus because He abides in you or me "to a greater degree". What is at work here is each person's journey to holiness, and none of us are equal in that regards. Naturally, God loves us all, no matter where we are at.

I wouldn’t want to be a Roman Catholic, as I understand Roman Catholicism.

I didn't say "Roman Catholic". We are Catholic.

The United Methodist Church is democratic—everyone’s opinion matters. In the Roman Catholic Church, as I understand it, the only people’s opinions who matter are a small group of self-appointed men, the clergy. Right? What does that do for church morale?

No one is "self-appointed", not even the Pope. Priests go through long periods of discernment, where they can be judged not "ready" to serve in the capacity of a priest. The sense of the faithful takes into account the entire Church. We believe the Holy Spirit is present among all of us, in different senses. We believe the Spirit speaks to the "elders" in a special way, such as in Acts 15.

No voting there.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales, don’t get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for the Roman Catholic Church. I also have a lot of respect for my own church.

Well said, Elijah. I'm happy for you. I'm not here to make you Roman Catholic or to cast derision on your community. In many senses, we are indeed one Church. I am just pointing out that we COULD be more unified on many fronts.


Regards

 

[elijah23]

I wouldn’t want to be a Roman Catholic, as I understand Roman Catholicism.

I didn't say "Roman Catholic". We are Catholic.

The United Methodist Church is democratic—everyone’s opinion matters. In the Roman Catholic Church, as I understand it, the only people’s opinions who matter are a small group of self-appointed men, the clergy. Right? What does that do for church morale?

No one is "self-appointed", not even the Pope. Priests go through long periods of discernment, where they can be judged not "ready" to serve in the capacity of a priest. The sense of the faithful takes into account the entire Church. We believe the Holy Spirit is present among all of us, in different senses. We believe the Spirit speaks to the "elders" in a special way, such as in Acts 15.

No voting there.

Regards

I thought your “official†name was “Roman Catholic.†I guess I was wrong.

If John Doe wants to be a priest, is virgin, and can imitate the behavior of other priests, I imagine he’ll have little trouble becoming a priest. He is self-appointed, in my judgment. I respect the clergy, but I don’t think they should have dictatorial, or oligarchic, control over the church.

You say the Spirit speaks to the “elders†in a special way. I think in truth the Lord speaks to us according the maturity we’ve reached. If you love the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself, you will be spoken to accordingly. If you fail to do so, you will be spoken to accordingly. It has nothing to do with your “rank†in the church.

You bar women from the priesthood. Jesus told us to be just, and it certainly seems unjust to me to bar women from the priesthood, but the men who make up the Catholic clergy apparently think its okay, since that man, Paul, said it was okay.

 

[elijah23]

Francisdesales, don’t get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for the Roman Catholic Church. I also have a lot of respect for my own church.

Well said, Elijah. I'm happy for you. I'm not here to make you Roman Catholic or to cast derision on your community. In many senses, we are indeed one Church. I am just pointing out that we COULD be more unified on many fronts.


Regards

There are things about the Catholic Church I appreciate. You stand firm on the issues of sexual morality. Thank you.

I think you should allow women to become priests, however.

I think it’s good to have celibate priests, though you seem to be wavering on that. You wouldn’t have to do that if you had women priests, of course.

We allow everyone (who intends to lead a righteous life) to take Communion—you don’t. I don’t know whose way is best. I suppose we wind up with former Catholics in our church who are barred from Catholic Communion.

 

[Cornelius]

Its such a terrible lie that is keeping God's people in bondage that one person cannot know the whole truth. That is idiotic to say the least and we are told the opposite in the Bible.

No one can know "the whole truth", that is nowhere testified to in Scriptures or in Christian Tradition. We are talking about GOD, even Paul sang out in praise on the depths of God and how we don't have a clue!

Regards

The Bible has not such teaching and I care nothing for traditions of men.

Jesus on the other hand, I trust. He said. Joh 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth ]shall make you free.


Of course this is related to our faith. If we believe God is not able to reveal all truth to us, then that is what we get. "Let it be to you according to your faith" If we depend on the revelation of our "church" then we also deserve what we get. We only will receive what they have received. Most "churches" believe that man cannot know the whole truth and that is why they are in the state they are. They have received according to their faith.

 

[Cornelius]

I am just pointing out that we COULD be more unified on many fronts.


Regards

We are never called to unify in spite of our error.We are called OUT of error into unity.
I mean, even if we just use human logic, the RCC and the various other denominations will never unify, unless they unify under the leadership of the One Word Religions initiative . In my country Bishop Tutu is leading that initiative where religious tolerance is preached so that "peace" can be achieved.

Home > CBN News




RELIGION
Ushering in the One-World Religion
By Wendy Griffith
CBN News Reporter

The summit was endorsed by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan who said "the future of the world depends on women."

CBN.com ? GENEVA, Switzerland ? A one world government and a one world religion ? it may just sound like fiction from the popular "Left Behind" novel series. But some Christians say this scenario may be closer than most people think.
Earlier this fall in Geneva, hundreds of spiritual and religious leaders met at the United Nations for a peace summit. And although all the major faiths were there, including some who claim to represent Christianity, it was clear that Jesus was not invited.

The event was actually the first ever UN summit of women religious leaders. Mournful cries could be heard emanating from one of the meetings as more than 500 women from more than 70 countries came to talk about ways to achieve world peace. Most were from "Eastern religions" ? Buddhists, Taoists and Hindus.

And a woman named "Amma," who is known as the "hugging saint," came with her own band of followers. She claims to be able to impart "divine love and wisdom" in her hug. She said, "It's not only hugging but it is also imparting that spiritual principal into people, so to have them know who they are, so once you know that, peace will spontaneously happen."

Honorary Chair Shirley MacLaine, known for her adventures into New Age, did not show, but several celebrities did, including Linda Evans, Lindsay Wagner and Linda Gray of "Dallas" fame.

Gray said, "I was raised Catholic, I bless that base, I think if you have a strong religious base where, whatever it is, then you branch out from there, or expand on it."

The summit was endorsed by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan who said "the future of the world depends on women."

As the women gathered near the banks of beautiful Lake Geneva, Bawa Jain, one of the organizers and one of the few men present, said, "And behold the power of women, look at that, the rain stopped, (laughs) this is the power of women, a true demonstration here."

Bawa Jain then led the women in a chant for peace. "Say it with me three times, ?No more violence, No more violence, No more violence,?" he said.

Rev. Joan Brown Campbell, co-chair of the Global Peace Initiative, said, "The thunderclouds of war gather around us, the sky grows dark but it never does envelope us. In a few moments we will light a single candle, and from that candle many will receive the light and that light will shine in the darkness."

Christian scholars say the Bible warns of a time when all the world will unite under a false global religious and political system. Maginnis says, it appears the UN could be taking the first steps in that direction.

"You're taking the Muslim community, the Christian community, the Hindus, the Confucians and all the many hundreds of religious groups, trying to identify key leaders, and you are basically trying to co-opt them into cooperating with you," he said.

Christians believe there is one way to heaven, because Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father except by me."

But Rev. Brown Campbell said, "For me, that is true, I mean for me the way to God the way to peace is through Jesus Christ, that's what I teach my children, that's what I teach my grandchildren, and I believe that very, very strongly. But I also believe that for others, there is a way that for them is true and precious, and I don't deny them that reality and I respect that."

rest of the article here.......
http://www.prisonplanet.com/ushering_in ... ligion.htm

I REALLY do not want to unite with these people, do you? Are you seriously saying we should ? If yes, then
you should be in serious prayer.

If "NO" then you are in fact in agreement with me, that we indeed should be separated from those in error. Now, the thing is, most of us have some error and its only God Who can reveal it to us and its only God who can show us , out of what He wants us to come. That ONLY happens in prayer. It ONLY happens when we humble ourselves and ask Him what HE thinks about where we are.

 

[Cornelius]

Pope Benedict is openly calling for a "true world political authority" with "real teeth". At a time when many prominent world leaders are publicly calling for a "New World Order", to have the Roman pontiff openly declare that we all need a world government is more than a little alarming.

Pope Benedict said :

"There is a strongly felt need... for a reform of the United Nations Organisation, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth... there is urgent need of a true world political authority."

http://thefinalhour.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -with.html

 

[Cornelius]

It is indeed disturbing to see so many evangelicals unaware of the Vatican?s strategy for bringing the world under the dominion of the papacy. The Vatican has made a concerted effort since 1965 to bring their "separated brothers? back home to "holy mother the church." In his 1995 encyclical Et Unum Sint, Pope John Paul II said he intends "to promote every suitable initiative...to increase the unity of all Christians until they reach full communion" and "to encourage the efforts of all who work for the cause of unity." The pope?s stated desire is "to gather all people and all things into Christ, so as to be for all?an inseparable sacrament of unity... expressed in the common celebration of the Eucharist." During a week of prayer for Christian unity Pope John Paul II said, "I gladly take this opportunity to call the attention of all believers to the ecumenical commitment that marked VC II. The council rightly defined the division among Christians as a scandal. The council Fathers felt the need to beg pardon of God and of their brethren for the sins committed against unity." He asked Catholics "to cultivate an authentic spiritual ecumenism" through the Virgin Mary [not through the Lord Jesus].

The success of the pope?s push for unity can be seen by the announcement made last year by the Archbishop of Canterbury. He urged all Christians to recognize the Pope as the supreme authority of a new global church (6/99 CRN News). In a document called The Gift of Authority, he describes the Pope as a "gift to be received by all the churches." It would do us all well to heed the words of C.H. Spurgeon, "Ignorance has been one of the grand agents of Popery ever since her establishment; by it, the eyes of men have been so blinded that they can scarcely discern between good and evil, and follow implicitly any guide even until they fall into the ditch of perdition."


http://www.reachingcatholics.org/pope.html

 

[Cornelius]

The Vatican?s ecumenical movement goes beyond the unity of all professing Christians. Their strategy is to bring all religions under the power and influence of the papacy. Pope John Paul II has been traveling the world to build bridges to all non-Christian religions. In a recent speech he said, "Christians and Muslims, we meet one another in faith in the one God...and strive to put into practice...the teaching of our respective holy books. Today, dialogue between our two religions [Roman Catholicism and Islam] is more necessary than ever. There remains a spiritual bond which unites us and which we must strive to recognize and develop." Even Mother Theresa had the ecumenical spirit as noted from her book Servants of Love. She stated, "we went every day to pray in some temple or church. The Archbishop gave us permission to do so. We prayed with the Jews, the Armenians, the Anglicans, the Jains, the Sikhs, the Buddhists, and the Hindus. It was extraordinary. All hearts united in prayer to the one true God."

So if we follow the Vatican's wishes, we will all join the One World Order and One Word Religion, because that is where it is going.

So in case anybody has been worrying about the TOPIC it is WELL within the parameters of the topic. Today we have , not just from the Catholic leadership, but also from within the Protestant group, pharisees, that are pushing an end-time agenda and will land their followers in hell.

That is why God says: Come OUT of her my people and share not in her sins. !