Moral beliefs

[ObjMoVa]

Hello everyone. I'm an atheist, and i'm very interested in human morality. I've heard many of my Christian peers claim that without God there would be no morality. They claim there would be no right or wrong without God. I cannot help but disagree.


I would like to hear what you have to say about this topic and get the discussion going.

 

[digging]

Well for myself I believe we were created and that the ability for morality to exist was created by God. It simple is there like water in a stream but not everyone drinks from the stream, but the thirsty that do drink might not know where the water originates from, but no matter the water is still good. So everyone who drinks is like everyone who practices morality. Good is Good whether we know why or not.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

Well for myself I believe we were created and that the ability for morality to exist was created by God. It simple is there like water in a stream but not everyone drinks from the stream, but the thirsty that do drink might not know where the water originates from, but no matter the water is still good. So everyone who drinks is like everyone who practices morality. Good is Good whether we know why or not.


Digging

That's a really good answer digging.
All people were created in the image of God. All people are aware that there is good and evil in the world.

 

[Andrew Mason]

Morality is right and wrong. More specifically, morality is determining what it means to "walk in love."

You can't determine morality in a situation without a judge. God is the only one qualified to judge what is right and wrong because He is without sin. All of us humans beings have been infected with the spiritual disease of sin so we are disqualified to judge right and wrong apart from God. Basically, we're selfish.

I don't believe real truth is a set of laws and rules. I believe real truth is a person. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life..." The only way for me to understand morality (loving other people in healthy relationships) at a higher level than my carnal instincts is to actually be in relationship with a person Who has no sin. That person is Jesus Christ.

I invite you to invite Him into your heart to forgive and cleanse you of your sin and heal past hurts in your heart through His love. Here are the Bible verses to understand the Christian Faith:

• Romans 3:23
  
• Romans 6:23
  
• Romans 5:8
  
• Romans 10:9
  
• Romans 10:10

 

[evenifigoalone]

I'd say yes, for the reason that it seems logic would dictate that if God created everything, every aspect of reality, then that would include the human perception of morals.

 

[Eugene]

Hi ObjMoVa, I've known a multiple of people more moral than I was that were not Christians.

 

[Jamsie]

ObjMoVa- They claim there would be no right or wrong without God. I cannot help but disagree.

I once heard a Rabbi talking about morality. He suggested that anyone being raised in a Judeo-Christian culture would by virtue of that pervasive morality conform to that standard, regardless of religious or irreligious home environment or personal worldview. Further he asked the question, who was more religious your parents or grandparents? He noted that in 98% (not sure of the actual percent he stated) of people asked it was one or the other. His conclusion was that those who now reject religion are simply running on “fumes”. Fumes ultimately dissipate.

It would seem that in a broad/general way peoples of all cultures share a sense of common/objective morality. Though it would seem that history suggests that “morality” applies within a common group but often does not apply to those outside the group. Perhaps the most salient point comes from the Nuremburg Trials where Nazi leaders defended their actions as following the “laws” of their society. The counterpoint by one of the prosecutors was that “Do we not answer to a higher law?”

Chesterton said that “Art, like morality, consists in drawing the line somewhere.”
(He also said that “The Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese”
but that is another story) I would suggest that if we don’t all take serious note of the lines then they can be easily erased and re-drawn again, and again.

Eugene - I've known a multiple of people more moral than I was that were not Christians.

I agree, many friends of an Agnostic or Atheist leaning are very moral in their day to day lives.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I'd like to kind of state my opposed case, and then I'll respond to some really good points that have been made so far.

This is consistent with the christian opinion I've heard on campus so far.

I think this outlook can be summed up as follows (i'll use murder as a specific example): God said that murder is evil, therefore murder is evil.

If God created this value and established it within us either it was placed on a whim, that is God simply wanted murder to be evil, or there was a reason behind that decision.

Consider the first possibility, God wanted murder to be evil. What if God wanted murder to be good? Imagine for a moment that there was a commandment saying that sons must kill their father some certain day. Would you be OK doing that because it's the word of God?

The second possibility is that God had some reason behind creating that moral. In this case, I would say that you could go directly to that reason, and go around God (who would be the "middle man").

 

[ObjMoVa]

I would suggest that if we don’t all take serious note of the lines then they can be easily erased and re-drawn again, and again.

But isn't re-drawing the line key to our moral growth as a society? We've re-drawn the line on slavery. We're working really hard to re-draw the line on homosexuality, and when was the last time your community stoned someone to death for working on Sunday? I would suggest that re-drawing the line in the right ways is clearly useful, and even necessary, for living in the modern world.

logic would dictate that if God created everything, every aspect of reality, then that would include the human perception of morals.

True, but that requires an assumption of God.


Off to Stats for bit, but I'll be back on this afternoon.

 

[WIP]

Without God, it is my belief that we would not have self awareness. In other words we would not be aware of our own existence beyond the here and now and as is with most other species we would exist for ourselves and would have little concern for others. Incest would be no hindrance. There would be no understanding of thievery or murder. We would not care about the safety or well-being of others. We would not feel love.

I do not believe it is possible for us to have evolved the sense of self and personal self worth. I contend that we have this only because God exists.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Well incest negatively impacts us on a genetic level. Children born of incest (in any species) have a much higher rate of defects that reduce their ability to survive. We have evolved to be off-put by incest because it damages our species genetically.

This "natural disgust" is also why we revile corpses of our own species more than those of others.

 

[WIP]

But isn't re-drawing the line key to our moral growth as a society? We've re-drawn the line on slavery. We're working really hard to re-draw the line on homosexuality, and when was the last time your community stoned someone to death for working on Sunday? I would suggest that re-drawing the line in the right ways is clearly useful, and even necessary, for living in the modern world.



True, but that requires an assumption of God.


Off to Stats for bit, but I'll be back on this afternoon.

You came to a Christian site. Of course there's an assumption of God. Be careful where you go with this. We do not allow mockery or atttempts to undermine our Christian faith. We are more than happy to try to help you learn and understand our beliefs but this site is not here to argue the validity of what we believe.

 

[ezrider]

When I was young, I did not know God, nor did I seek Him. I was not raised with religion. But that does not change the fact that when I was young, I already knew that murder was wrong. I did not need a Bible to tell me these things. To me, theses things are what you might say self evident. At family gatherings growing up I would listen to my relatives complain about the Blacks and the Jews. I saw their spite and hatred, it was evident to me, and I knew I did not want to grow up and carry that kind of hatred around with me. But the Bible did not teach me these things, nor did I learn them from a church sermon. I was born with them, and to me they are self evident.

 

[ObjMoVa]

I mean absolutely no mockery, and I'm very sorry if it seemed as though that was my intention. I read the TOS as well as the individual board rules, and came to the conclusion that the Apologetic/Theology board would be appropriate to discuss matters of the Christian Faith that I am curious about.

I'm just saying that as an atheist, the argument that "if God created everything therefore he created X" relies on an assumption that I have not made.

This argument is still perfectly welcome, but i'm pointing out that it is ONLY meaningful if the individual has already subscribed to Christian beliefs.

 

[ObjMoVa]

But the Bible did not teach me these things, nor did I learn them from a church sermon. I was born with them, and to me they are self evident.

Exactly!

 

[Eugene]

ObjMoVa, your rationalization betrays your honesty of learning; it appears to come straight from books promoting atheism. You claim to not believe in God but state: "God said that murder is evil, therefore murder is evil."

Planting doubt seems to be the mainstay of ungodliness. Satan used it right off as he asked, "Hath God said?"

You also say, "We're working really hard to re-draw the line on homosexuality." Yeah, that's a wonderful thing to brag on. You seem to have definite opinions of what sin should be if any.

You seem to be drawing your accusations of God from the ministration of death, and in context there is no satisfaction, nor will be. You like the majority attempt to confuse grace and law, and without being born of God have no way to understand Him though led word by word, and concept by concept. The same sacrifice at the cross was made for you ObjMoVa as it was for me. It is free, provides freedom from sin, and eternal life. Haven't you fought the battle of attempting to be good when we know by nature there are none righteous. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

May you be blessed in Christ Jesus, ​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I'd like to kind of state my opposed case, and then I'll respond to some really good points that have been made so far.

This is consistent with the christian opinion I've heard on campus so far.

I think this outlook can be summed up as follows (i'll use murder as a specific example): God said that murder is evil, therefore murder is evil.

This seems only to be dealing with the deontological aspect of theology based ethics, specifically the Divine Command Theory.

This theory has some major challenges, such as omnibenevolence. Specifically that God would only be good by virtue of following his own commands, and that if he cannot command himself then he is not inherently good.

I would say that the Bible teaches that morality, what is good, is derived from the character and nature of God and that his commands are a reflection of that. Even though he does provide specific commands to different cultures that do not reflect this, such as the certificate of divorce given to the people of Israel, etc.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I mean absolutely no mockery, and I'm very sorry if it seemed as though that was my intention. I read the TOS as well as the individual board rules, and came to the conclusion that the Apologetic/Theology board would be appropriate to discuss matters of the Christian Faith that I am curious about.

I'm just saying that as an atheist, the argument that "if God created everything therefore he created X" relies on an assumption that I have not made.

This argument is still perfectly welcome, but i'm pointing out that it is ONLY meaningful if the individual has already subscribed to Christian beliefs.

I would agree with this objection, just because this is a Christian site does not mean that we should find fallacious arguments acceptable.

The argument of "God created everything, therefore he created X," is guilty of assuming the premise. I'll spell it out a little more below.

A) God created everything.
B) X would be included in that.
Conclusion) God created X

The conclusion that, "God created X," can only be substantiated if one agrees with the assumed premise of A. An atheist naturally would not agree with this argument so to contend with him that he/she ought to is rather odd.

That's like going to an atheistic website and being forced to agree with the assumed premise that there is no God while being a devout Christian.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I'd like to kind of state my opposed case, and then I'll respond to some really good points that have been made so far.

This is consistent with the christian opinion I've heard on campus so far.

I think this outlook can be summed up as follows (i'll use murder as a specific example): God said that murder is evil, therefore murder is evil.

If God created this value and established it within us either it was placed on a whim, that is God simply wanted murder to be evil, or there was a reason behind that decision.

Consider the first possibility, God wanted murder to be evil. What if God wanted murder to be good? Imagine for a moment that there was a commandment saying that sons must kill their father some certain day. Would you be OK doing that because it's the word of God?

The second possibility is that God had some reason behind creating that moral. In this case, I would say that you could go directly to that reason, and go around God (who would be the "middle man").

I wonder why one would want to go around "go around God (who would be the "middle man")"? What would be the purpose for doing that?

There are people who have come to the knowledge of God when they were very small children. Children who had never heard of a Creator, of God by any name at all. The testimonies of these people are very interesting. They, themselves and God, established a relationship without outside information. They went on to seek out who this God is.

There's a testimony in Acts that shows man had knowledge of an "unknown God" even in the Greek society that worshipped many gods. Paul witnesses to the Greek philosophers at Mars Hill about this God they called, the unknown. Of coarse some believed him and some didn't.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are laws that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws keep us in line with the will of God that we present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us as a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.


Matthew 22:
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.