Moral beliefs

[ObjMoVa]

We didn't know why we had a taboo against incest back then, but we did have it.

Even in ancient Rome and Greece it was seen as wrong or offensive, before God was claimed to have done so.

Our ancestors in the plains of Africa didn't engage in rampant incest, if that practice would have been successful, we would still be doing it now. Children of incest were less likely to survive birth, and therefore the practice is not conducive to human flourishing.

Do you believe that some objective moral standard is necessary?

or Perhaps better stated – Do you believe that morality requires a basis/foundation?

Do you believe conceptually in conscience as a moral guide? (Jiminy Cricket)

Yes, I strongly agree with the writings of Sam Harris. I do not think all morality is relative. But I believe that this foundation can, and does, exist without requiring the word of god to tell us so.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Well about 10% of any mammalian species engages in homosexual tendencies. And homosexual couples don't pass their genes down, so if you try to use evolution against homosexuality you run into the problem of why it still exists.

 

[WIP]

We didn't know why we had a taboo against incest back then, but we did have it.

Exactly! As I already pointed out, I believe this understanding comes from God. Not from the Bible but from God himself when He created us in His image.

 

[Deborah13]

We didn't know why we had a taboo against incest back then, but we did have it.

Even in ancient Rome and Greece it was seen as wrong or offensive, before God was claimed to have done so.

Our ancestors in the plains of Africa didn't engage in rampant incest, if that practice would have been successful, we would still be doing it now. Children of incest were less likely to survive birth, and therefore the practice is not conducive to human flourishing.



Yes, I strongly agree with the writings of Sam Harris. I do not think all morality is relative. But I believe that this foundation can, and does, exist without requiring the word of god to tell us so.

You seem to believe that God's interactions with man about moral behaviors began at the writing of the Laws? God's interactions with man were from the beginning of creation, way before the establishment of the societies of the Romans and the Greeks.

 

[WIP]

You seem to believe that God's interactions with man about moral behaviors began at the writing of the Laws? God's interactions with man were from the beginning of creation, way before the establishment of the societies of the Romans and the Greeks.

 

[Deborah13]

Well about 10% of any mammalian species engages in homosexual tendencies. And homosexual couples don't pass their genes down, so if you try to use evolution against homosexuality you run into the problem of why it still exists.

???
Some animals kill and eat their young. Does that make it moral behavior for humans?

 

[for_his_glory]

ObjMoVa,

I just want to point something out within the Christian world at times there is a difference between church going Christians and spiritual Christians they are not always the same things. I am against many many things that institutional Christianity promotes. I would argue it is unfair to judge the bible by the actions of some church going Christians.

Digging

 

[Jamsie]

ObjMoVa - Yes, I strongly agree with the writings of Sam Harris. I do not think all morality is relative. But I believe that this foundation can, and does, exist without requiring the word of god to tell us so.

Although the area of “Moral Landscapes” is not typically an area of discussion for me. Sam Harris came up in a discussion some time ago with a person, an agnostic softened from Atheist, in our weekly discussions. It was odd in that prior to reading the book I found that myriad Atheists were quite critical of his book, so much so that I don’t believe I ever read any Christian refutations.

I believe that this points to the difficulty in any discussion of Moral theory. How does one prove a moral theory, on what foundation is such a discussion or critique based. Although denied, most beliefs, even if lack of belief is claimed, require a level of Faith, not blind but reasoned. Further, I believe we arrive at a matter of semantics. One could just as easily suggest that the Christian morality based on God’s will can be defined for an individual’s “well being”.

It would seem that as Atheism strives to distinguish a humanistic moral theory without any religious basis....in many ways they will simply succeed in a game of semantics where the same religious principles will still be lurking under the surface. One can certainly believe that morality has an evolutionary base but that too encounters many problems.

so if you try to use evolution against homosexuality you run into the problem of why it still exists.

I was relating a discussion not defending it. The point was made that if homosexual behavior was the norm, where heterosexual is the vast minority, then we’d be extinct.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Some animals kill and eat their young. Does that make it moral behavior for humans?

Two males having homosexual relations is hardly comparable to killing a child, at least in my opinion. Yes you've made the same argument as I've made, but the subject of your argument is entirely different.

Exactly! As I already pointed out, I believe this understanding comes from God. Not from the Bible but from God himself when He created us in His image.

I feel like this really gets down to the meat and bones of what we're saying.

We both believe that humans have innate moral values, and that they do not need exposure to religion to have these beliefs.

I am positing, that we can create the foundation to these beliefs solely through reason, understanding, and empathy to others.

You can say that we can do this because god wanted us to, or he allowed it. But you don't have to. We can have morality without assuming god created it and the model works just fine.

 

[Gary]

Hello everyone. I'm an atheist, and i'm very interested in human morality. I've heard many of my Christian peers claim that without God there would be no morality. They claim there would be no right or wrong without God. I cannot help but disagree.


I would like to hear what you have to say about this topic and get the discussion going.

Your Christian peers are right. Morals came into being when Eve ate of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden. A tree that the Lord created. The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is where our ability to discern right from wrong comes from.
.

 

[turnorburn]

Humans have nothing to do with the animal world its like comparing apples to bricks

tob

 

[Gary]

We can have morality without assuming god created it and the model works just fine.

You are correct.

But you still need Jesus to get into heaven.
.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Actually ToB, Humans and animals have a lot to do with each other! In fact Humans are actually animals themselves. We are homo sapiens, which is our specific species.

But you still need Jesus to get into heaven

I think the heaven topic is different than moral values. I would be happy to talk about heaven and if it exists in another thread. I will say though that people have done some very immoral things to get into heaven.

 

[Gary]

I think the heaven topic is different than moral values. I would be happy to talk about heaven and if it exists in another thread. I will say though that people have done some very immoral things to get into heaven.

What leads you to believe those people are in heaven?

 

[ObjMoVa]

Oh, trust me Gary I don't believe they are in Heaven at all. I'm just pointing out that the reward of eternity in heaven is definitely not a moral construction.

 

[Gary]

Oh, trust me Gary I don't believe they are in Heaven at all. I'm just pointing out that the reward of eternity in heaven is definitely not a moral construction.

Do you believe in God?

 

[ObjMoVa]

I have yet to be shown compelling evidence for the existence of the supernatural.

 

[Gary]

I have yet to be shown compelling evidence for the existence of the supernatural.

What would you consider compelling evidence?

 

[ObjMoVa]

Falsifiable claims showing empirical evidence. I feel that there is no more evidence, real testable evidence not just anecdotes, for the existence of God [Yahweh] as there is for many many other gods.

I'm often told to prove that God does not exist, but this is trying to prove a negative which is impossible. The burden of proof in on those parties making the claims.

 

[turnorburn]

Jesus has an answer for that as well its found in the book of Matthew..

Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

tob