Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Morality without God?
- Thread starter TOG
- Start date
TOG
Member
Muslim nations show what it's like when an entire country follows a false god. If you want to see what Atheism can do, look at officially atheist countries like Albania or North Korea.
The TOG
th1b.taylor
Member
No, He's on target, dead center of the bull's eye. These two are but a micro-cosum of the evidence that spreads across the last 6,000 of so years. If you will do the Historical Research, recent or, and, ancient past, you will clearly see that nations without God have always been evil. We, all of us, serve the god of this world (Satan) or we serve the God of everything, God.
Infinity
Member
Well that is pretty darn convenient. Set 1 principle by which you judge a nation and ignore everything else. Oh, and atheist nations? Yea, I would really like to see an example of that, because I do hope that you realize that there is a difference between an atheist and someone who doesn't identify himself with any religion. Seriously name me 3 nations where 60% or more people identify themselves as atheists.
R
Rick W
Guest
th1b.taylor
Member
No, you are attempting to change the rule of discussion after the fact so no! That makes you one rude3 dude, my man.
a·the·ist
ˈāTHēˌist/
noun
noun: atheist; plural noun: atheists
1.
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
th1b.taylor
Member
Actually, I feel the need to point something out here. Having worked quite a few boards filled with a majority of disbelievers, Atheists, I was used to, silly, personal attacks with no basis in fact but this board has rules that you and I must obey. Unlike the unruled and chaotic atheist's forums, Christians obey (submit) to general and to specific law and to deal with us, you, also, must cease to be brave behind your keyboard and deal with me in a civil manor.
Sorry mods, delete if you must.
Infinity
Member
I did not meant to be rude in any way, so sorry if I offended you in any way. But you posted stuff which you have zero evidence for, and I really want to see your claims about atheist nations. And yes, I know the dictionary word for atheist, but if you look at any pool about religion in any country, you will see that they separate atheists with non religion people and for good reason (in some cases they even put agnostics in a separate place).
Morality without God?
Without reading all the replies, morality (ethical & goodness) is a fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5:22
Can there be fruit without God? John 15:5 . . without Me (Jesus) ye can do nothing.
Rom 3:10 . . There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:12 . . there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:18 . . There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:23 . . For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Jack Hectorman
Member
Hello Infinity,
What Bill Taylor and others have said about atheist nations
is right on target.
It isn't even arguable. The "Murder, Torture, and Enslavement" award
goes to the Atheists and their atheistic ideology. Atheists have been
prolific, proficient and accomplished Murderers, Torturers, and
Enslavers, and the historical records prove it true.
Christians have also killed, tortured and enslaved but never
remotely approaching the scope and scale of the Atheists.
Christians have killed and tortured a relatively few "witches"
and heretics in the name of religious purity in centuries past, but
never in the tens of millions.
There was no god(s), God, or religion whatsoever connected with
Mao and his regime when some 30 to 40 million people were
murdered. Comrade Stalin too, and his regime, was without any
piety when he murdered between 20 and 60 million people in his
purges.
God, god(s) and religion had no part in any of this:
Start quote:
Communist China........................35 million murdered
Germany (total 20th century)........21 million murdered
Soviet Union (total 20th century)...62 million murdered
Stalinist Purges (1930-1938)........20-60 million murdered
Cambodia (1975-1979)...............1-2 million murdered
End quote.
( I typed in these stats.)
Atheists and their atheistic ideology have murdered well
over 100,000,000 people in the 20th century, and they
did it all without reference to any god or religion.
(They were trying to "fix the world" or make the world
"better" according to their vision based on a NON-RELIGIOUS
foundation, and they were willing to murder tens of millions
of human beings in order to achieve their non-religious
vision of a better world.")
__Source of the stats: David Wallechinsky, The People's Almanic
Presents The Twentieth Century ( New York: Little, Brown,
and Company, 1995);
and "Statistics Of Democide," By Rudy J. Rummel, as cited
in The Economist magazine.
Quoted by Julian L. Simon and Stephen Moore in It's Getting
Better All The Time: Greatest Trends Of The Last 100 Years,
page 16
♠
PS
Anticipated objection regarding Hitler and the Nazi regime: It is absurd
for anyone to argue that Hitler was a Christian or that the Nazi regime
was Christian or that 1939 Germany was acting in the interest of
Christendom, or was, in any sense, motivated by any Christian motives
or any type of religious motives. Nazism was 100% a secular atheist
movement in 1939 Germany.
`
Last edited:
Infinity
Member
The thing you (like everyone else who ever posted this things about Mao and Stalin) ignore Hectorman is that these people killed and tortured allot of people for various reasons, but not because of atheism.
I honestly don't get what the heck do people talk about when they say atheist ideology. Being an atheist means you disbelieve in God(s) and nothing else (the only thing you can argue about is if you are an agonstic or gnostic atheist.)
Now you say that they did not include any God or religion in their doings, but so what? Putting sugar in your morning coffee doesn't involve God or religion, so is that an atheist thing (again not counting the only thing about atheism is disbelieve in God or Gods)?
The only time you can say someone killed in the name of atheism is when someone literally kills for the reason he disbelieves in a God(s).
And I am not someone who says that Hitler was christian. If just takes a good book about Hitler to learn he was neither a christian or a atheist.
I honestly don't get what the heck do people talk about when they say atheist ideology. Being an atheist means you disbelieve in God(s) and nothing else (the only thing you can argue about is if you are an agonstic or gnostic atheist.)
Now you say that they did not include any God or religion in their doings, but so what? Putting sugar in your morning coffee doesn't involve God or religion, so is that an atheist thing (again not counting the only thing about atheism is disbelieve in God or Gods)?
The only time you can say someone killed in the name of atheism is when someone literally kills for the reason he disbelieves in a God(s).
And I am not someone who says that Hitler was christian. If just takes a good book about Hitler to learn he was neither a christian or a atheist.
Jack Hectorman
Member
We disagree. These Atheists killed, tortured, and enslaved in their attempts to create and then develop their nations based upon an atheist political philosophy because Atheism is a worldview. Atheism is an ideology. Atheism is a political ideology.
Atheism is a distinctive political system because it is impossible for human beings to separate what they believe and what they do not believe, from what they actually do. They call that "faith and practice", that is, your practice always springs out of what you truly believe.
Your "practice" is what you do or do not do, and what you do or do not do, becomes your policies [your political system.] It is therefore false to say, as you did, that, "Being an atheist means you disbelieve in God(s) and nothing else."
No. You are wrong.
For example America was built upon Christian principles. America's government buildings in Washington D.C. have a significant number of Christian symbols engraved in stone on the buildings.
Start quote.
"The buildings housing the institutions of our national government in Washington, D.C., are filled with symbols of our nation's Christian heritage.
In 1999 the Family Research Council published an article entitled, "Hallowed Ground: Washington's Monuments to Faith, Family and Freedom." In it they made this observation: "From cornerstones to capstones, from cornices to colonnades, from halls of Congress to the hallowed hillsides of Arlington Cemetery, a mighty causeway of faith courses through the landscape of the nation's capital." ....
Moses holding the tablets of the Law of God is displayed prominently in a frieze on the exterior of the East side of the Supreme Court building. He is shown in another frieze inside the building. Directly above the bench where the justices sit is another frieze that shows two men sitting with the Ten Commandments between them..."
http://www.lamblion.us/2010/07/dc-symbols-prove-american-christian.html
End Quote.
America would have been a TOTALLY DIFFERENT country had she been founded by atheists on atheistic principles and to hold that atheism does not have a clear set of ideological and political principles is to SLAP COMMON SENSE IN THE FACE .. lol .. its not even arguable that atheism is just another word for HUMANISM.
To discover what your side really believes, you should read the Humanist Manifesto, here:
http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I
You can instantly see that Christendom is a determined enemy of Atheism-Humanism and that the two cannot ever possibly live side-by-side in peace. You can also instantly see from reading the Humanist Manifesto that your claim where you said, "Being an atheist means you disbelieve in God(s) and nothing else" is 100% false.
This has been answered and refuted up-post.
You will "learn" much more than that from reading a "good book" on Hitler. You will learn that Hitler wanted to get rid of Biblical Christianity in Germany and by extension in all lands to be conquered by Germany [which in Hitler's dreams was the entire world eventually]. You will learn that Hitler wanted to design and build a Secular Atheist Humanist German State based largely upon the principles outlined in the Humanist Manifesto, only with an Aryan flavor and aura.
Cheers.
♫ ♪ ♫
jasoncran
Member
abortion was around before that. it was done in back allies. and well hitler and the European nations were doing it befor 73, some states were as well.
Jack Hectorman
Member
Amen to that point Reba.
If all the truly born again Christians in America had been the ones to decide the Roe v. Wade question, it would have been decided on Christian principles and not on Darwinist and/or Secularist and/or Humanist principles. The vast enormous majority of born again Christendom would have never "discovered" in the US Constitution the "right" of a woman to have her human baby killed.
Roe was a sad day in America.
♠
jasoncran
Member
off topic, im a libertarian but not because I agree with it. because the fact remains we cant force man to love god, we allow idolatry in our first amendment rights. we can make all manner of sin illegal it wont save a soul. the problem I have libertarianism its based in moral relativism . hurt is very subjecteve. if I cheat on my wife, she will be very much hurt by it and want to divorce and to say the government wont be involved in a legal battle isn't facing reality.
Jack Hectorman
Member
Hi Jason,
I don't agree with libertarianism either, and I do understand your points up there and I agree with you that political force cannot make bad men into good men. Permit me to express my agreement with you this way:
I believe all human problems at root are spiritual problems and that there are no political solutions to spiritual problems. Its utterly impossible to repair the damage done to humanity by the Sin Principle by applying political solutions to get rid of sin and it's resulting damage done to the whole person. The only solution to America's problems is step one: a man must be born again [Jh.3:3], then step two: he must accept the Lord Jesus as his Savior [Jh.3:16], and then step three: he must allow the Holy Spirit to teach him how to be a good Christian by teaching him the fruits of the Spirit [Gal.5:22-23.]
These 3 simple verses give us God's one and only plan that can fix America: (1) John 3:3 followed by (2) John 3:16, followed by Gal.5:22-23 [and other N.T. passages that list more "fruits of the Holy Spirit" than given in the short list of Gal. 5:22-23.]
What about temporary political solutions? Yes I think they do exist. A nation can use politics to temporarily "patch up" a leak in (say) Section A of the dam, but at some future point the pressure of the water [sin in my analogy] will cause the dam to spring another leak in (say) Section E of the dam.
The sin that is still there at the rotten root will always find another way to express itself at a different time and in a different form. Or put another way, no nation can skip over the Lord Jesus on their way to permanently fixing their problems and dilemmas. Which is just another way of repeating this: These 3 simple verses give us the one and only plan that can fix America: (1) John 3:3 followed by (2) John 3:16, followed by Gal.5:22-23
Many Christians agree with the Libertarians that the Christian moral code cannot be codified and forced upon America:
I think we ought to speak out against immorality but in my opinion most of us have concluded that its utterly impossible to codify the Christian moral code and use police power to enforce it upon the population of America. In order to codify the Christian moral code, we'd have to criminalize sin, not just abortion, but also fornication, adultery, divorce and remarriage apart from legitimate New Testament grounds, the very existence of Los Vegas with its 24/7/365 flow of booze, gambling, and sex industry, then we'd have to codify cursing and taking God's name in vain, using other types of vulgar language, most R-rated movies, many PG-13 movies, most violent video games with celebratory violence, and huge swaths of both daytime and night time television, etc. The point is that in order to codify the Christian moral code and actually enforce it with police power on the population of America, you would have to turn America into a police state applying increasing and sustained brutality in order to actually enforce the new laws. Just think about the mess we'd have if they actually codified fornication and started jailing fornicators. Just the sin of fornication alone [not to mention the other sins within the Christian moral code] would clog the courts, not to mention the mess we'd have in the streets, riots and looting. To conclude: I believe the gospel is the one and only hope to fix America's problems, I don't believe we can fix America with politics. Our only hope is that the Lord's Christian Church will carry out and fulfill the Lord's Great Commission. And part of His Great Commission is for we Christians to speak out against sins in the public square as we present the True Solution to men as to how to find a cure for their sins and dilemmas.
Cheers.
♫ ♪ ♫ ♪
PS
... /Grin ... those are just my thoughts on it anyway. I expect there are some good folks that might disagree with me.
`
Tony Hyman
Member
I havent read all the posts , but I found this little story or "modern parable" quite handy in understanding human moral ethics attempting to operate on it's own steam, without the power of the Holy Spirit.Hopefully this mixes in .It's an extract from Paul.E Little's book called "How to give your faith Away."On moral issue he explains on p86
"An illustration helps people to see their misunderstanding here.Suppose the entire human race lined up on the West Coast with one objective , to get to Hawaii.
We'll equate their goal with God's standard of righteousness.The gun is fired and all swimmers jump in.As we look down over the pcean we see the most moral of all.
He's been a woderful professor and a good man ,always doing his best and following high moral standards; yet he would be the first to admit his imperfection and sinfulness.
But he's out there ...seventy miles from shore.Next we pick out Joe College..who's not quite ready for Sing- Sing or Cook County Jail,He does cheat on exams a little and goes on a binge now and then ..get into scraps .But he's not really too bad.He's got about ten miles out.
A derilict from Skid Row is practically drowning 150 yds offshore. Scattered about in the water between the two extremes of the spectrum we see the rest of the human race...Fromm the bum on Skid Row to the Joe College to the tremendously mamn -- 75 miles out ,we see the difference.It's an enormous difference.
But what's the difference in terms of Hawaii? Everyone will drown.A set of swimming you can live a life that is absolutely perfect in thought, word and deed, you can make it to heaven on your own steam.But no man ever has or ever will succeed.
All the other relgions of the world are essentially sets of swimming instructions,suggested codes of ethics for a wonderful pattern of life.But man's basic problem is not knowin how he ought to live;it is lacking the power to live as he ought.
The good news of Christianity is that Jesus Christ ,who invaded human history, dose for us what we couldn't possibly do for purselves.Through Him we may be reconciled to God, given His righteousness , and enabled to have fellowship with Him in His very presence."Unquote
"An illustration helps people to see their misunderstanding here.Suppose the entire human race lined up on the West Coast with one objective , to get to Hawaii.
We'll equate their goal with God's standard of righteousness.The gun is fired and all swimmers jump in.As we look down over the pcean we see the most moral of all.
He's been a woderful professor and a good man ,always doing his best and following high moral standards; yet he would be the first to admit his imperfection and sinfulness.
But he's out there ...seventy miles from shore.Next we pick out Joe College..who's not quite ready for Sing- Sing or Cook County Jail,He does cheat on exams a little and goes on a binge now and then ..get into scraps .But he's not really too bad.He's got about ten miles out.
A derilict from Skid Row is practically drowning 150 yds offshore. Scattered about in the water between the two extremes of the spectrum we see the rest of the human race...Fromm the bum on Skid Row to the Joe College to the tremendously mamn -- 75 miles out ,we see the difference.It's an enormous difference.
But what's the difference in terms of Hawaii? Everyone will drown.A set of swimming you can live a life that is absolutely perfect in thought, word and deed, you can make it to heaven on your own steam.But no man ever has or ever will succeed.
All the other relgions of the world are essentially sets of swimming instructions,suggested codes of ethics for a wonderful pattern of life.But man's basic problem is not knowin how he ought to live;it is lacking the power to live as he ought.
The good news of Christianity is that Jesus Christ ,who invaded human history, dose for us what we couldn't possibly do for purselves.Through Him we may be reconciled to God, given His righteousness , and enabled to have fellowship with Him in His very presence."Unquote
Last edited: