More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

[brightfame52]

Heb 9:12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

When Christ with His Blood went into the Holy Place, it was to present His Blood before the God and Judge of His People, and because of the Resurrection we know that His Blood was accepted, His Work was accepted in behalf of all whom He died for, this meant also that all the persons had been accepted of God. So even as by nature enemies, by His Offering all for whom He died were reconciled to God Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That word reconciled means :

return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

They were received into God's Favor. The very receiving Christ into Glory is proof positive that His Atonement for the Elect had been accepted, and as Christ the Head had been accepted, His acceptance was the also the acceptance of His Members of His Body He represented, for they are one in God's Sight. So when one for whom Christ died is born into this world a filthy sinner, they nevertheless have been accepted by God into His Favour, to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace Eph 1:6

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7

 

[rogerg]

Heb 9:12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

When Christ with His Blood went into the Holy Place, it was to present His Blood before the God and Judge of His People, and because of the Resurrection we know that His Blood was accepted, His Work was accepted in behalf of all whom He died for, this meant also that all the persons had been accepted of God. So even as by nature enemies, by His Offering all for whom He died were reconciled to God Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That word reconciled means :

return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

They were received into God's Favor. The very receiving Christ into Glory is proof positive that His Atonement for the Elect had been accepted, and as Christ the Head had been accepted, His acceptance was the also the acceptance of His Members of His Body He represented, for they are one in God's Sight. So when one for whom Christ died is born into this world a filthy sinner, they nevertheless have been accepted by God into His Favour, to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace Eph 1:6

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7

Agreed, brightfame52. And I believe as confirmation, the following verses also inform of that. They inform us that the "you" of the verses were spiritually dead in/by sin, and as the spiritually dead, they could not give to themselves spiritual life. Nevertheless, God, and God alone, unilaterally moved to take them directly from spiritual death to spiritual life with only God's intervention occurring between the two spiritual states. Notice also, that as they were dead in trespasses and sin, for them to become quickened (made spiritually alive), those sins had first to be forgiven, otherwise, that which brought death to them, and held them in death they would have remained subject to. Then as now, those who are the beneficiaries of this can do nothing whatsoever to deserve, earn, nor facilitate the receiving of it - it is completely the gift of God. Being dead spiritually in sin is the condition we all enter into this world in and remain in unless God, by His exceedingly great mercy and grace through Jesus Christ the Savior, saves/makes born again those whom He had chosen for it. So, spiritual life must be given by God first, and by it, we grow in faith, learn, and understand the most foundational /fundamental of all Christain/biblical/spiritual doctrines - that Christ alone is Savior and man is not.

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[brightfame52]

Agreed, brightfame52. And I believe as confirmation, the following verses also inform of that. They inform us that the "you" of the verses were spiritually dead in/by sin, and as the spiritually dead, they could not give to themselves spiritual life. Nevertheless, God, and God alone, unilaterally moved to take them directly from spiritual death to spiritual life with only God's intervention occurring between the two spiritual states. Notice also, that as they were dead in trespasses and sin, for them to become quickened (made spiritually alive), those sins had first to be forgiven, otherwise, that which brought death to them, and held them in death they would have remained subject to. Then as now, those who are the beneficiaries of this can do nothing whatsoever to deserve, earn, nor facilitate the receiving of it - it is completely the gift of God. Being dead spiritually in sin is the condition we all enter into this world in and remain in unless God, by His exceedingly great mercy and grace through Jesus Christ the Savior, saves/makes born again those whom He had chosen for it. So, spiritual life must be given by God first, and by it, we grow in faith, learn, and understand the most foundational /fundamental of all Christain/biblical/spiritual doctrines - that Christ alone is Savior and man is not.

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Amen to all this ! I was just speaking with my Wife about the Sanctification that is derived from Christs Death as Per Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The word sanctified hagiazō also means::

1. 1. consecrate things to God
   2. dedicate people to God
2. to purify
   1. to cleanse externally
   2. to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
   3. to purify internally by renewing of the soul

It provides internal renewing for spiritually dead sinners Titus 3:5-6
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Sooner or later each vessel of mercy will be regenerated by the Spirit out of spiritual death as part of Christs Sanctifying Death effects.

 

[brightfame52]

Having obtained Eternal Redemption for us !

Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Who are the Us ? Why it is the Heirs of God, Joint Heirs with Jesus Christ as Per Heb 1:14

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Heb 6:17

Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:


Heb 11:9

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Rom 8:17

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This was not a temporal Redemption, but Eternal, it's effects are outside of time. It's infinite value was Eternal and Immutable in God's sight. It being Eternal, its forgiveness is from everlasting to everlasting Ps 103:12,17

12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

It comprehends from when Christ offered Himself on the Cross, and made Atonement for all the sins of all of the Election of grace, who had lived from Adam, to include all of the Election of Grace then present, and yet all that should live upon the Earth until the end of time. This redemption is without date, and of everlasting duration, and existed in the Eternal Mind of God, since the existence of God ! If we can tell when God began to exist, or when He can cease to exist, then we can know the beginning and ending of the Eternal Redemption Christ obtained for all those He died for. For it was Eternal in the engagements that were entered into [ Christ's Suretyship of the Everlasting Covenant with the Father and the Spirit], in the accomplishments of what it has done, and the Eternal Glory that shall be revealed ! 1 Pet 5:10

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.7

 

[brightfame52]

Redemption must effect Translation !

Col 1:13-114

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

In this passage, Paul gives us the effect before the cause. The cause of the translation [transfer, remove from one place to another] from one Kingdom to another, is the Redemption and forgiveness of sins we have through His Blood Cp Eph 1:7

The word redemption of Col 1:14 is the greek word apolytrōsis and means [a releasing effected by payment of ransom]

Now this is important, for to release means:

to make over (land, property, etc.), as to another.

to free from confinement, bondage, obligation, pain, etc.; let go: to release a prisoner; to release someone from a debt.

And the word effected means:

something that is produced by an agency or cause; result;

to produce a result

So, the Redemption that is solely through Christ's Blood, it effects, or produces unto them Christ died and redeemed, it effects their release from satan to God, from darkness to light, from the kingdom of darkness unto the kingdom of God's Dear Son ! Acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

This is the result and effect, a translation, of the Redemption of Christ's Blood. If anyone Christ died for does not be caused to Turn from Darkness to Light, from the Power of Satan unto God, then Christ's redemptive Blood failed its objective ! 7

 

[brightfame52]

Christ's Blood Sanctifies !

I have posted this before, but it is impossible for Christ to have died for everyone without exception simply because, by His Blood or Death, or Offering, He has once and for all Sanctified all for whom He died ! Meaning by His Blood, they have been permanently set apart for the service of God ! Heb 10:10

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The word sanctified here is the greek word Hagiazo and means:

to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
consecrate things to God
dedicate people to God
to purify
to cleanse externally
to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Folks Christ's Blood alone dedicates permanently those He died for to God, His service.

Thats why the writer in Heb wrote Heb 9:14

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

You see what the Blood of Christ did here ? It purges the conscience from dead works, to serve the Living God. Thats a must accomplishment for the Blood of Christ for everyone Christ died for or it has failed.

Also the word sanctified in Heb 10:10 its in the perfect tense which means:

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

No one Christ sanctified by His Death or Blood cannot become unsanctified, the only way that could be done is if Christ's Blood is no longer a factor before the Throne and Mercy Seat of God !

If you preach a Christ today who did not accomplish and sanctify everyone He died for permanently for the service of God, like here Rev 7:14-15

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Then you preach another christ/gospel, and Paul said of such this Gal 1:8-9


8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ's Sanctification leads to the Spirit's Sanctification !

Its been seen from scripture that Christ's Sanctifies everyone He died for permanently, once and for all, that being the case, God the Holy Spirit must effect the partaking of that to each one Christ died for and Sanctified as well as did redeem, So He Sanctifies them also by Belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This is the Father's answer to Christ when He prayed this Jn 17:17-20

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

So He, the Holy Spirit makes us meet for the reception of God's Truth, that we may be of those who receive the word of the Kingdom upon good ground and bear fruit Matt 13:23

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Many people shall hear the word publicly but will not understand it, because if they are not spiritual, they cannot understand the things of God, its foolishness to them. Now for it to be judged foolishness by them, they must did publicly hear it to make that assessment of it !

That word understandeth in Matt 13:23 is a type of Understanding men do not have by nature, for it is the same word Paul uses of those dead in sin Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

None means no not one, so if one does understand the word in Matt 13:23, that one had been made meet by the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, which person had been sanctified before by the Death or Blood of Christ ! Heb 10:10 7

 

[brightfame52]

The Good News !

The Good News is this, Thats Christ has saved that which was Lost Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

When He said this Jn 19:30

30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He had did that which the Father gave Him to do Jn 17:4-5

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And that was to seek and to save His Body the Church, for He is the Saviour of the Body, His Body Per Eph 5:23 !

That same body is also Israel, the only Israel that matters , His Seed. For Christ is the True Israel servant of God Isa 49:3 ; Ex 4:22

He is the True Israel that Glorifies God Isa 49:3

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. Now cp with Jn 17:4

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

This is Israel of Isa 49:3 bringing to pass what was then foretold He would do !

Now if He be the True Israel, and His Body the Church is One with Him, then they also be Israel, and brings to pass the salvation of His Body Israel, for it is written Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

And it is Finished, he saved that which was Lost !

 

[brightfame52]

I have overcome the World, Be of good cheer !

Jn 16:33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Now why should one be of good cheer for Christ's overcoming the world ; if they have no share in it ? Ah but the fact of the matter is this, that all for whom Christ died and rose again, partake in this overcoming, because He did it primarily as Their Head and Representative, so if it's His overcoming. it's His Body's also ! Everyone Christ died for will be given overcoming Faith, that also overcomes the world 1 Jn 5:4

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Where does our faith come from here ? Why it is born of God !

You see Christ by the Gift of His Spirit is the Author and Finisher of Our Faith ! Our being everyone He died for ! This Faith that flows to us from Him by the communication of the Holy Spirit, hath overcome the World, and each person He died for will receive a New Birth of the Spirit because of His Resurrection from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now vain religionists who are proud, believe that the Faith that gives the victory over the world and overcomes it, is from their own freewill ability, and not born of God's Spirit, for they are boasters and proud, and take the crown from Christ, and arrogantly crown their own selves and freewill for such a great achievement !

But the overcoming Faith, that overcomes the world, Has Christ as it's Author and Finisher, and flows From Him the Head, to all His Members that He represented ! So they become overcomer's and victorious because He did in their behalf ! 7

 

[Josheb]

All redemption, justification and life are the result of believing and obeying the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That is incorrect and ironically, the next sentence proves it.

but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:10

JLB

It's Jesus' work that first justifies, not the sinner's works or the sinner's faith. A survey of the New Testament will show there are at least four means by which we are justified: grace, the cross, the blood of Christ, ad faith. They are, of course, inter-related, but God's grace, Calvary, and Jesus' work are not predicated on human faith, whereas the regenerate believer's faith is inescapably predicated on those three precursors.

 

[Josheb]

More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that ye must be born again, of course He was not commanding him to be born again, for that would be like telling him he must enter back into his mothers womb, but Jesus was stating to him a condition for being able to enter into the Kingdom of God, and I know many would agree with this conclusion.

However there is another reason why one must be born again, if indeed Jesus died for their sins, and that is so they may have a new life in order to now serve God pleasingly in Spirit and in Truth, for they now must serve Him in the newness of life. Rom 6:4

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The word for newness is the greek word kainotēs:

newness

a) in the new state of life in which the Holy Spirit places us so as to produce a new state which is eternal life.

Thats right, God's Justice provides for and demands a Newness of Life to serve Him. All for whom Christ died and redeemed must be made alive, because Christ has died the death that they have deserved and has merited for them the Full Blessing of Eternal Life. Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Lets look at Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. As a end result of the redemption we have in Christ, notice the b section of the verse :

"even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men[without distinction] unto justification of life."

Now Legal, forensic Justification as important as it is, it was not God's only objective for Christ's redeeming death. His death was also purposed to give Life, and this Life comes through the Spirit. Its by His Gift of the Holy Spirit, unto all for whom Christ died and redeemed, we receive Justification unto Life ! based solely upon one act of righteousness or as it states in vs 19, His one act of obedience: Justification unto life by the Spirit is also what Paul refers to in 1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Justification unto or into life by the Spirit. This must be because the old life has been crucified with the Lord Jesus Christ, all of its sins , past, present and future have been blotted out once and for all, so now we must be born again to serve in the Newness of Life, Gods Justice demands it for Christ sake.

Very well done. I particularly liked the part about "legal, forensic justification," because this is a matter, I've observed many do not understand. Justification is nothing more than having a standing, the justification upon which one is able to plead one's case before God. Legally speaking, no one can stand before God because all have sinned and fall short of His glory, and they've done so despite knowing of God's power so there is no excuse. Everyone stands already condemned simply because they do not believe in Jesus (Jn. 3:19 - and no one is born believing in Jesus). It is not faith that provides the ability to stand before God, it is the fact we do so covered in His Son's blood. We have no case to plead apart from Christ crucified and resurrected, the propitiation for our sin.

Paul did a marvelous job of re-creating a courtroom scene in Romans 8 in which the Judge is Jesus, the Plaintiff is Jesus, the Prosecutor is Jesus but, blessedly, the Defense Attorney is Jesus, and the one who sits in the docks as Defendant is Jesus! He took our place and as a consequence there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and nothing can separate us from the love of God that is found in him.

 

[brightfame52]

Josheb

Everyone stands already condemned simply because they do not believe in Jesus (Jn. 3:19 - and no one is born believing in Jesus)

You said much which I agree with save this statement, the elect though born unbelievers like the rest, are not born condemned like the rest, because Christs Death for them, before they were even born, took care of their condemnation before God, it was imputed to Him.

 

[Josheb]

Josheb

You said much which I agree with save this statement, the elect though born unbelievers like the rest, are not born condemned like the rest, because Christs Death for them, before they were even born, took care of their condemnation before God, it was imputed to Him.

John 3:18 states what John 3:18 states.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
.

......the elect though born unbelievers like the rest, are not born condemned like the rest.....

That's bad Calvinism.

....because Christs Death for them, before they were even born, took care of their condemnation before God, it was imputed to Him.

No, Christ's death would take care of their unbelief. That's an important detail.

Paul wouldn't have broken his neck falling off the donkey because it was God's will that he not do so, that he be converted, and become who he'd always been prepared to be..... but if he had broken his neck falling blind off the donkey then he would have died dead in sin not believing in the name of God's one and only Son. He had not, at that point been gifted anything, not even faith to believe in the name of Jesus.

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Paul and the saints are included in that "we." Paul had been, by nature, a child of wrath. His having been predestined from eternity to be a child of God by grace through faith, created in Christ, did not change that fact.

 

[electedbyHim]

Josheb



You said much which I agree with save this statement, the elect though born unbelievers like the rest, are not born condemned like the rest, because Christs Death for them, before they were even born, took care of their condemnation before God, it was imputed to Him.

Is there Scripture to back this up?

 

[Josheb]

Josheb



You said much which I agree with save this statement, the elect though born unbelievers like the rest, are not born condemned like the rest, because Christs Death for them, before they were even born, took care of their condemnation before God, it was imputed to Him.

(see Post 293 before reading this) Here's what Calvin wrote about Ephesians 2:3 in his commentary on Ephesians...

(Verse)3. Among whom also we all had our conversation. Lest it should be supposed that what he had now said was a slanderous reproach against the former character of the Ephesians, or that Jewish pride had led him to treat the Gentiles as an inferior race, he associates himself and his countrymen along with them in the general accusation. This is not done in hypocrisy, but in a sincere ascription of glory to God. It may excite wonder, indeed, that he should speak of himself as having walked "in the lusts of the flesh," while, on other occasions, he boasts that his life had been throughout irreproachable.​

​

"Touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:6.)​

​

And again,​

​

"Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily, and justly, and unblamably, we behaved ourselves among you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:10)​

​

I reply, the statement applies to all who have not been regenerated by the Spirit of Christ. However praiseworthy, in appearance, the life of some may be, because their lusts do not break out in the sight of men, there is nothing pure or holy which does not proceed from the fountain of all purity.​

​

Fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind. To fulfill these desires, is to live according to the guidance of our natural disposition and of our mind. The flesh means here the disposition, or, what is called, the inclination of the nature; and the next expression (ton dianoion) means what proceeds from the mind. Now, the mind includes reason, such as it exists in men by nature; so that lusts do not refer exclusively to the lower appetites, or what is called the sensual part of man, but extend to the whole.​

​

And were by nature children of wrath. All men without exception, whether Jews or Gentiles, (Galatians 2:15,16,) are here pronounced to be guilty, until they are redeemed by Christ; so that out of Christ there is no righteousness, no salvation, and, in short, no excellence. Children of wrath are those who are lost, and who deserve eternal death. Wrath means the judgment of God; so that the children of wrath are those who are condemned before God. Such, the apostle tells us, had been the Jews, -- such had been all the excellent men that were now in the Church; and they were so by nature, that is, from their very commencement, and from their mother's womb.​

​

This is a remarkable passage, in opposition to the views of the Pelagians, and of all who deny original sin. What dwells naturally in all is certainly original; but Paul declares that we are all naturally liable to condemnation; therefore, sin dwells naturally in us, for God does not condemn the innocent. Pelagians were wont to object, that sin spread from Adam to the whole human race, not by descent, but by imitation. But Paul affirms that we are born with sin, as serpents bring their venom from the womb. Others who think that it is not in reality sin, are not less at variance with Paul's language; for where condemnation is, there must unquestionably be sin. It is not with blameless men, but with sin, that God is offended. Nor is it wonderful that the depravity which we inherit from our parents is reckoned as sin before God; for the seeds of sin, before they have been openly displayed, are perceived and condemned.​

​

But one question here arises. Why does Paul represent the Jews, equally with others, as subject to wrath and curse, while they were the blessed seed? I answer, they have a common nature. Jews differ from Gentiles in nothing but this, that, through the grace of the promise, God delivers them from destruction; but that is a remedy which came after the disease. Another question is, since God is the Author of nature, how comes it that no blame attaches to God, if we are lost by nature? I answer, there is a twofold nature: the one was produced by God, and the other is the corruption of it. This condemnation therefore which Paul mentions does not proceed from God, but from a depraved nature: for we are not born such as Adam was at first created, we are not​

​

"wholly a right seed, but are turned into the degenerate" (Jeremiah 2:21)​

​

offspring of a degenerate and sinful man.​

​

So, for example, When WCF 3.1 states "God ordained all things from eternity..." it should be understood that those God chose to save were from the pool that comprised sinful humans, which is all humans. God did not make two types of humans in any sense that there is a group of humans who have never sinned and were therefore never objects of wrath (except Jesus, of course), and another group of people who have sinned. The two groups, the unregenerate and the regenerate, come from the same group: those dead in sin. One group is left dead in sin by their own hand/choice and the other is made alive in Christ by grace through faith, their having been created in Christ to do good works that God had planned for them to perform before He saved them.​

 

[brightfame52]

John 3:18 states what John 3:18 states.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
.

That's bad Calvinism.

No, Christ's death would take care of their unbelief. That's an important detail.

Paul wouldn't have broken his neck falling off the donkey because it was God's will that he not do so, that he be converted, and become who he'd always been prepared to be..... but if he had broken his neck falling blind off the donkey then he would have died dead in sin not believing in the name of God's one and only Son. He had not, at that point been gifted anything, not even faith to believe in the name of Jesus.

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Paul and the saints are included in that "we." Paul had been, by nature, a child of wrath. His having been predestined from eternity to be a child of God by grace through faith, created in Christ, did not change that fact.

Christ died for the sin of unbelief, so it cant condemn the elect, as no sin can, Christ took them away and reconciled them to God.

 

[brightfame52]

Is there Scripture to back this up?

Huh, Christ died for their sins,thats not enough ? 1 Cor 15:3

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 

[brightfame52]

(see Post 293 before reading this) Here's what Calvin wrote about Ephesians 2:3 in his commentary on Ephesians...

(Verse)3. Among whom also we all had our conversation. Lest it should be supposed that what he had now said was a slanderous reproach against the former character of the Ephesians, or that Jewish pride had led him to treat the Gentiles as an inferior race, he associates himself and his countrymen along with them in the general accusation. This is not done in hypocrisy, but in a sincere ascription of glory to God. It may excite wonder, indeed, that he should speak of himself as having walked "in the lusts of the flesh," while, on other occasions, he boasts that his life had been throughout irreproachable.​

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"Touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:6.)​

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And again,​

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"Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily, and justly, and unblamably, we behaved ourselves among you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:10)​

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I reply, the statement applies to all who have not been regenerated by the Spirit of Christ. However praiseworthy, in appearance, the life of some may be, because their lusts do not break out in the sight of men, there is nothing pure or holy which does not proceed from the fountain of all purity.​

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Fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind. To fulfill these desires, is to live according to the guidance of our natural disposition and of our mind. The flesh means here the disposition, or, what is called, the inclination of the nature; and the next expression (ton dianoion) means what proceeds from the mind. Now, the mind includes reason, such as it exists in men by nature; so that lusts do not refer exclusively to the lower appetites, or what is called the sensual part of man, but extend to the whole.​

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And were by nature children of wrath. All men without exception, whether Jews or Gentiles, (Galatians 2:15,16,) are here pronounced to be guilty, until they are redeemed by Christ; so that out of Christ there is no righteousness, no salvation, and, in short, no excellence. Children of wrath are those who are lost, and who deserve eternal death. Wrath means the judgment of God; so that the children of wrath are those who are condemned before God. Such, the apostle tells us, had been the Jews, -- such had been all the excellent men that were now in the Church; and they were so by nature, that is, from their very commencement, and from their mother's womb.​

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This is a remarkable passage, in opposition to the views of the Pelagians, and of all who deny original sin. What dwells naturally in all is certainly original; but Paul declares that we are all naturally liable to condemnation; therefore, sin dwells naturally in us, for God does not condemn the innocent. Pelagians were wont to object, that sin spread from Adam to the whole human race, not by descent, but by imitation. But Paul affirms that we are born with sin, as serpents bring their venom from the womb. Others who think that it is not in reality sin, are not less at variance with Paul's language; for where condemnation is, there must unquestionably be sin. It is not with blameless men, but with sin, that God is offended. Nor is it wonderful that the depravity which we inherit from our parents is reckoned as sin before God; for the seeds of sin, before they have been openly displayed, are perceived and condemned.​

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But one question here arises. Why does Paul represent the Jews, equally with others, as subject to wrath and curse, while they were the blessed seed? I answer, they have a common nature. Jews differ from Gentiles in nothing but this, that, through the grace of the promise, God delivers them from destruction; but that is a remedy which came after the disease. Another question is, since God is the Author of nature, how comes it that no blame attaches to God, if we are lost by nature? I answer, there is a twofold nature: the one was produced by God, and the other is the corruption of it. This condemnation therefore which Paul mentions does not proceed from God, but from a depraved nature: for we are not born such as Adam was at first created, we are not​

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"wholly a right seed, but are turned into the degenerate" (Jeremiah 2:21)​

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offspring of a degenerate and sinful man.​

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So, for example, When WCF 3.1 states "God ordained all things from eternity..." it should be understood that those God chose to save were from the pool that comprised sinful humans, which is all humans. God did not make two types of humans in any sense that there is a group of humans who have never sinned and were therefore never objects of wrath (except Jesus, of course), and another group of people who have sinned. The two groups, the unregenerate and the regenerate, come from the same group: those dead in sin. One group is left dead in sin by their own hand/choice and the other is made alive in Christ by grace through faith, their having been created in Christ to do good works that God had planned for them to perform before He saved them.​

I agree that the elect are born by nature sinners, worthy of wrath,no better naturally than the non elect, but nevertheless, they are born as vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

So never born as the others vessels of wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

cant be a vessel of mercy as a sinner and a vessel of wrath as a sinner at the same time.

 

[electedbyHim]

Huh, Christ died for their sins,thats not enough ? 1 Cor 15:3

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

I was looking at your quote here...

the elect though born unbelievers like the rest, are not born condemned like the rest

I have not read in the Bible that the elect are not born condemned.

The elect were born deceived.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, despicable, hating one another.

 

[brightfame52]

I was looking at your quote here...



I have not read in the Bible that the elect are not born condemned.

The elect were born deceived.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, despicable, hating one another.

How can they be condemned if Christ died for their sins?