Music instruments in the church?

[stovebolts]

Gotta love acapella.

I still love acapella. I've been to youth rallies where 5,000 members were all singing acapella. It's indecribable.
I'll give the churches of Christ this. They sing the best acapella out there. Search out some of their youtube channels.

 

[humble soul]

I like acapella as well.
Beach boys style hymns?

 

[JLB]

I still love acapella. I've been to youth rallies where 5,000 members were all singing acapella. It's indecribable.
I'll give the churches of Christ this. They sing the best acapella out there. Search out some of their youtube channels.

We should have acapella included in our worship.

We do it sometimes, at the end of a worship song, they will just stop the music and the worship leader will lead the congregation in singing acapella for a while.


It’s anointed.



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

britannica.com - Biblical literature - Old Testament canon, texts and versions...

The Hebrew Bible is often known among Jews as Tanakh, an acronym derived from the names of its three divisions being Torah (Instruction, or law also called the Pentateuch), Neviium (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings).

The Torah contains five books: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy

The Neviim comprise eight books divided into Former Prophets containing the four historical works Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. (Notice there were no 1st or 2nd Samuel or Kings) The Latter Prophets, the oracular discourses of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve Minor Prophets, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

The Twelve were all formerly written on a single scroll thus reckond as one book. The Ketuvim consist of religious poetry and wisdom literature, Psalms, Proverbs and Job, a collection known as the Five Megillot (Five Scrolls; i.e., Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes and Esther, which have been grouped together according to the annual cycle of their public reading in the synagogue) and the books of Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah and Chronicles (No 1st or 2nd Chronicles).

You can read more at that website that goes into greater detail.


The whole OT is not law according to the break down I just gave. Psalms has nothing to do with the law as it's about poetry, song and music instruments according to the the Ketuvim. In the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) there is no OT or NT as Jews would not recognize the Bible we use today as many Jewish writings were not added to our Bible.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

All things must be fulfilled as the law being fulfilled in Christ, the prophecies given by the prophets about Christ, and in the Psalms the life and ministry of Christ.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

The law and the prophets were until John baptized Jesus before His ministry began as a voice from heaven declared this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, Matthew 3:13-17. Jesus came to fulfill the righteousness of the law, Matthew 5:17-20, preaching the kingdom of God as every man pressed in to hear His preaching.

Jesus and Paul called Psalms law and settled that issue. Christ removed all the OT including Psalms.

The elephant in the room that keeps getting ignored are those errantly going back to the OT law to 'justify' IM are proving there is no justification within the NT......which is what NT Christians are to follow.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You may be interested in knowing that Moses only wrote what is found in Psalms 90 being a prayer of Moses the man of God.

Seventy-three of the Psalms are designated as Davidic: 3-9; 11-32; 34-41; 51-65; 68-70;86; 101; 103; 108-110; 122; 124; 131; 133; and 138-145. David's wide experience as shepherd, musician, warrior, and king (1011-971 B.C.) is reflected in these psalms.

In addition to the seventy-five by David, twelve were by Asaph a priest who headed the service of music: 50; 73-83. Ten were by the sons of Korah, a guild of singers and composers: 42; 44-49; 84; 85; 87. Two were by Solomon, Israel's most powerful king: 72; 127. One was by Herman, a wise man: 88. One was by Ethan, a wise man: 89.

The remaining fifty Psalms are anonymous as some are traditionally attributed to Ezra 1; 2; 10; 33; 43; 66; 67; 71; 91-100; 102; 104-107; 111-121; 123; 125; 126; 128-130; 132; 134-137; and 146-150

2 Samuel 6:5; 2 Chronicles 29:25; Psalms 47:1; 81:1, 2; 135 and 150; Matthew 26:30; Romans 15:9; Acts 16:25; 1 Corinthians 14:15; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16, 17; Hebrews 2:12; James 5:13 and so many more scriptures is instruction on how we are to praise the Lord in the sanctuary of the Lord. The sons of Korah were singers and composers in the sanctuary of God. It's all about praising and giving glory to God. Throughout the OT we see the use of musical instruments in the sanctuary of the Lord. In the NT we see many singing praises to the Lord, even singing in the Spirit (which I love to do). The NT does not say anything either way about musical instruments, but that does not mean they were not used.

Psalms 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

Why are you so against this when it is scriptural. Just because the NT is silent on using instruments mention in Psalms 150 doesn't mean they were not used as many, in the NT worshipped and sang praises to the Lord.

It has not been shown from the Bible that IM for the Christian is scriptural. The NT commands each Christian to sing, using IM is changing what God has commanded to Christians.

It remains sinful to try and keep both the OT and NT at the same time, a spiritual adultery, Rom 7:1-6.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This seems to be the crux of the matter, context... Can you show us all how to decipher the proper context from a Jewish perspective?

When Jesus specifically mentions the law, he is specifically speaking about the first five books. Same goes with Paul. Both Paul and Jesus understand when to speak in broad terms, or specific terms.

Same principal applies to the term Scripture and the term Prophets.

when mentioned individually (law, scripture, prophets) they are to be thought of within their category. If a book is called out specifically, it is associated with its respective category.

for instance, when a Jew mentions the Psalms Specifically, he is speaking about the scriptures. If they mention the law, or Moses, they are referring to Torah. To say Psalms is part of the law is to say it’s contained within the writings of Moses.

Jesus and Paul called Psalms law ..end of story.

You have chosen to reject something simple, nothing more I can do. No need for me to continue to spend time on what the Bible has already settled.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass
First, I take no issue with not using musical instruments in worship. Even the Eastern Orthodox do not use musical instruments within their worship setting. I say this because I have no bias against not using them.

Having been a member of the church of Christ for 22 years, I understand the churches bias against using them. I also know the history on how the divide came about directly after the civil war which you must also be aware of.

But none of that is here nor there. What matters is what the Bible says and how we understand those words. I have much to be thankful for in the churches of Christ because we were prompted weekly to read and study, and that is what you and I both have done while within the church of Christ.

How then do we see this issue so vastly different? Why do I see the phrase, law and prophets as two separate sets of writings in the Bible much in the same way that I see the Gospels and the pastoral letters? Why do I only see the Sinai covenant obsolete which was based on the law of Moses while I look outside to see the rainbow knowing God will never flood the world again because he made a covenant that is still binding today?

You see, this has nothing to do with musical instruments. My views were not derived for the purpose of defeating the church of Christ’s argument that using musical instruments in worship is a sin. Rather, I learned these biblical truths because they were obvious.

Here is the problem the way I see it and teaching the men’s class within the church of Christ for many years, I found out some topics are just off limits and must be defended regardless of what the truth is.

In other words, I don’t have any issue with you thinking it’s a sin using musical instruments but I do take issue with you binding that on others. Personally, I’m glad my wife and I are free from those chains and my wife is now leading worship with her guitar at our new church. Her and I are playing our instruments the next two weeks while she opens the congregation in prayer and leads the songs. She feels free and those chains are gone, and I thank God.

I am not trying to bind anything upon anyone, people can choose for themselves what they choose to do. But I will continue to point out there is no justification, no authorization for Christians to use IM. If one does not have to follow what Christ's NT says about singing, then one need not have follow anything the NT says.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Eph 5:18-21
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

The above is what guides NT Christians and what NT Christians are to obey, not the OT.

The context above is prefaced with the command to "be filled with the Spirit". How does one obey such a command? Being filled with the Spirit is not some unknown, miraculous event where one gets hit with the Spirit like a bolt of lightening out of the blue, but being filled with the Spirit means doing what the Spirit has said/commanded in His word. Therefore those who follow the Spirit's word are the ones filled with the Spirit. In the parallel passage in Col 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom" is equated with "be ye filled with the Spirit"......
'word dwell in you' = 'Spirit dwell in you'.

In the immediate context of Eph 5:18-21 Paul tells us how to be filled with the Spirit with 5 plural participles;
speaking in psalms and hymns
singing
making melody in your heart
giving thanks
submitting yourselves

These participles themselves become imperatives since doing them is necessary to obey the command to be filled with the Spirit. Those who disobey and not do these things are clearly not filled with Spirit.


What can be concluded from the above?

--Since there is no such thing in the NT as proxy salvation, proxy obedience no one can speak, sing, make, give or submit for another person thereby be filled with the Spirit by proxy for another. Therefore it is incumbent upon each individual Christian to obey this command himself. Such is why the Lord's one church does not have soloists or choirs for no one can speak sing or make melody in the heart for another and be filled with the Spirit by proxy for another. Nor can one can give or submit for me and be filled with the Spirit for me by proxy.

--some in error try make psallo (v19) mean to play IM. If such were the case, then each individual Christian must play an instrument for no one can play by proxy for another and be filled with the Spirit for another.

--the phrase "one to another" is reflexive and reciprocal meaning each individual sings to others and others in turn reciprocate the action by singing back with the end result congregational singing.

--singing is commanded which eliminates playing IM, humming, whistling etc which would change, pervert what God commanded.

--No where does it say to keep the OT in order to be filled with the OT.

 

[stovebolts]

We should have acapella included in our worship.

We do it sometimes, at the end of a worship song, they will just stop the music and the worship leader will lead the congregation in singing acapella for a while.


It’s anointed.



JLB

Absolutely! Before I attended the church of Christ I felt the same way. Now that we are attending another church, and occasionally lead worship I can't get my wife so go acapella during worship. I suspect it's because she has been singing acapella her entire life.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus and Paul called Psalms law ..end of story.

Maybe for you, but it's not the end of the story. You are willingly ignoring the cultural language and imposing your bias on those verses. Otherwise you would stop speaking in such an authorative manner and actually address the cultural language that Jesus and Paul use instead of brushing it off and increase your rhetoric.

have chosen to reject something simple, nothing more I can do. No need for me to continue to spend time on what the Bible has already settled.

I can continue to discuss this for the next few months if you like. I haven't even scratched the surface. I do not reject what the Bible says. What I reject is the doctrine that the churches of Christ hold on the matter.

When a parashoner is told they can't sing in their car with Christian music because it uses musical instruments that's just wrong. When it becomes a matter of willful disobedience, then it turns into a salvation issue where one can go to hell for continuing to worship in their car or home with instruments then we have a problem.

I don't know where you stand as far as this being a salvation issue since obviously, my wife and I will willfully continue to not only participate in worship which includes musical instruments, but we will actually be playing them and my wife will often lead the songs.

In your opinion, should we be concerned with loosing our salvation? Will God do to us as he did with Aaron's sons?

 

[stovebolts]

The above is what guides NT Christians and what NT Christians are to obey, not the OT.

If we are not to obey the OT, then what authority does the story of Aaron's sons have over us? If it holds no authority, then why bring it up since it doesn't apply to the NT. After all, we do not have to be from the Tribe of Levi to minister and you don't have to be from the Levitical line of Aaron to be a priest, not to mention we don't have a Temple that were required to attend.
So what purpose does it have if it holds no authority?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Addendum to my last post.

If it what Jesus and Paul said can be ignored in calling Psalms "law" (Paul calls Isaiah law) and that Psalms is the guiding book for Christians, then;

--where in Psalms did God authorize David to use IM or authorize David to take on multiple wives? If one is acceptable for Christians (IM) the other would be acceptable also be the other (polygamy).

--are Christians to set aside the blood of Christ as atonement for their sin as start offering animal sacrifices for their sins as it says in Psalms 66:16?

--are Christians to also set aside what Christ said in Matt 5:44 and follow David's example in hating their enemies and wish evil upon their enemies, Psa 139?

 

[stovebolts]

I am not trying to bind anything upon anyone, people can choose for themselves what they choose to do. But I will continue to point out there is no justification, no authorization for Christians to use IM. If one does not have to follow what Christ's NT says about singing, then one need not have follow anything the NT says.

When you say using Instrumental Music is a sin, you bind that on those who see no error in their use. Personally, you are telling me that I am in sin.

 

[stovebolts]

If it what Jesus and Paul said can be ignored in calling Psalms "law" (Paul calls Isaiah law) and that Psalms is the guiding book for Christians, then;

Ignoring something means to leave it unaddressed. I have addressed those issues by giving proof of their cultural language. You yourself provided a link that affirmed that language.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Maybe for you, but it's not the end of the story. You are willingly ignoring the cultural language and imposing your bias on those verses. Otherwise you would stop speaking in such an authorative manner and actually address the cultural language that Jesus and Paul use instead of brushing it off and increase your rhetoric.



I can continue to discuss this for the next few months if you like. I haven't even scratched the surface. I do not reject what the Bible says. What I reject is the doctrine that the churches of Christ hold on the matter.

When a parashoner is told they can't sing in their car with Christian music because it uses musical instruments that's just wrong. When it becomes a matter of willful disobedience, then it turns into a salvation issue where one can go to hell for continuing to worship in their car or home with instruments then we have a problem.

I don't know where you stand as far as this being a salvation issue since obviously, my wife and I will willfully continue to not only participate in worship which includes musical instruments, but we will actually be playing them and my wife will often lead the songs.

In your opinion, should we be concerned with loosing our salvation? Will God do to us as he did with Aaron's sons?

This "cultural language" is nothing more than a poor attempt to undo what Christ and Paul said in plain, clear language in calling Psalms law. I refuse to believe the ideas some people create out of then air.

I gave quotes from well known commentators who were NOT members of the church Christ (from Methodist to Calvinst) who also understand plain clear language in Christ calling Psalms law. Therefore it is not just a "church of Christ thing" in calling all the OT law.

For those wishing to please themselves, they cannot allow what Christ and Paul said to be the end of the story for them,

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

When you say using Instrumental Music is a sin, you bind that on those who see no error in their use. Personally, you are telling me that I am in sin.

People are free to choose to sin all they care to, I am not binding anything upon them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Christ removed all the OT including Psalms.

If Jesus removed all of the Tanakh then why did He quote from it or even say what he said in Matthew 5:17-20


Which Old Testament Book Did Jesus Quote From
blog.biblia.com

Jesus quoted from:
Exodus 3:6.............Matthew 22:32; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37
20:12-16.................Matthew 15:14; 19:18, 19; Mark 7:10; 10:19; Luke 18:20
21:24......................Matthew 5:38


Isaiah 6:9-10.........Matthew 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10
56:7.......................Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:17; Luke 19:46
29:13.....................Matthew 15:8, 9; Mark 7:6, 7
5:1.........................Matthew 21:33; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9
53:12.....................Luke 22:37
54:13.....................John 6:45
61:1, 2...................Matthew 11:5; Luke 4:18, 19; 7:22

Deuteronomy
6:5........................Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:29-33; Luke 10:27
24:1-3...................Matthew 5:31; 19:7; Mark 10:4
19:15....................Matthew 4:4, 7, 10; Luke 4:4, 8, 12

Psalms
82:2; 110:1...........Matthew 21:21:16; 22:44; Mark 12:36; 14:62; Luke 20:42, 43
22:1......................Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34
31:5......................Luke 23:46
35:19; 69:4..........John 15:25
41:9.....................John 13:18
78:24...................John 6:31
82:6.....................John 10:34
110:1...................Matthew 26:64
118:22, 23...........Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17
118:26.................Matthew 23:39; Luke 13:35


If you go to that website it will give you more greater detail

 

[stovebolts]

People are free to choose to sin all they care to, I am not binding anything upon them.

Do you believe I am sinning when I participate in a worship setting that uses musical instruments?

 

[for_his_glory]

I am not trying to bind anything upon anyone, people can choose for themselves what they choose to do. But I will continue to point out there is no justification, no authorization for Christians to use IM. If one does not have to follow what Christ's NT says about singing, then one need not have follow anything the NT says.

Just because scripture is silent on certain things does not make certain things right or wrong. I would think the Holy Spirit would bring conviction on everyone who plays an instrument, including an organ during services.

 

[stovebolts]

Lk 24:44 mentions the law of Moses, prophets and Psalms. Again Paul called Psalms prophet Isaiah Law.

Luke 24:44
King James Version
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Please note:
Law of Moses
AND
Prophets
AND
Psalms

I generally read and as "in addition to". This appears to me as a straight forward kind of thing. I don't read it as
The Law of Moses is ALSO the Prophets and ALSO the Psalms.

I have shown you and you have even cited a link that affirms what OT books are included in the Law of Moses, Prophets and Scriptures. Just to recap:

1. Law of Moses = Torah (to the strictest since)
2. Prophets
3. Scriptures (Psalms is included).

How then to you say that all three of these are one in the same in regard to Luke 24:44. Is there some sort of mystical trinitarian mist hovering over that passage that I'm unable to grasp with a clear and simple reading of the passage?