[_ Old Earth _] Mutation, Evolutions last hope

[Barbarian]

Scan page 1 and 2. The error on page two is when some guy mentioned how it would be impossible for a ship to be on a mountain at 13,000 feet even if both polar caps melted. But what the non bibical scholar doesn't know is that during the flood is when the mountains WERE created nearing the end of the flood. Read in the bible were it talks about the earth moving.

Unfortunately, that won't work, either. If you accept the Bible story, the Ark came to rest on the mountain after the flood. It wasn't lifted. Someone found a piece of wood on a mountain, and you made an Ark of it. BTW, there was a shrine made of wood on Mt. Ararat at one time. So it's not hard to figure out where the wood came from.

The Ark it's self may never be discovered but pieces of it could be preserved in the icy mountain ranges that are blocked off by the local gov. From what I've researched so far there is two mountains one in turkey and one in Iran that could be holding whats left of it. The stuff I read on the man with the piece of wood was a paid actor, so some claim that soaked a pine tree in sap and heated it to increase its age.

Tooth fairy has more evidence going for her.

 

[caseypayne1980]

Tooth fairy has more evidence going for her.

Who said it was a she. jk :wink:

 

[jwu]

But what the non bibical scholar doesn't know is that during the flood is when the mountains WERE created nearing the end of the flood.

And what is the evidence for this massive geological event?
What strata were laid down by the flood, how could mountains form that quickly without disintegrating (and by the way, the Bible does not say that mountains formed during the flood, but that the flood covered "all the high mountains")
Where did the water come from and where did it go? Why are fossils sorted? Why didn't the Egyptians and the Chinese (among others) notice that flood but happily made it through it?

 

[caseypayne1980]

And what is the evidence for this massive geological event?
What strata were laid down by the flood, how could mountains form that quickly without disintegrating (and by the way, the Bible does not say that mountains formed during the flood, but that the flood covered "all the high mountains")
Where did the water come from and where did it go? Why are fossils sorted? Why didn't the Egyptians and the Chinese (among others) notice that flood but happily made it through it?

Evidence would be things like the Grand Canyon, sea shells on top of mountains like Mt. Everest etc.

Before the Flood peolpe lived longer lives. And there may have been no polar ice caps. This would resort in a dense misti environment with a stronger oxygen level. Sorta like a yearly rain forest, which would contribute to longer lives and were the water is. Always floating in air. Before this we have no knowledge of huge mountains.


Genesis
19And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Now the highest hills.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Cubits were used by egytians. 515 feet = 1 cubit. So the highest of any known mountains were 515 x 15 cubts = 7,725 feet high. Two things can occur from the flood. One the waters power could cause immense errosion causing 1,000's of feet to appear, or no 2 the waters could cause cracks in the ground causing the plates to shift pushing up the mountains further.

 

[jwu]

Evidence would be things like the Grand Canyon

How is it supposed to have formed during the flood? It's meandering and has vertical slopes. It's also cut deeply into the vishnu basalt. It basically screams "i took millions of years to form".
And why is it unique if the flood was supposed to be global? There should be many such canyons all over the world then.

Before the Flood peolpe lived longer lives. And there may have been no polar ice caps. This would resort in a dense misti environment with a stronger oxygen level. Sorta like a yearly rain forest, which would contribute to longer lives and were the water is.

The atmospheric pressure of sufficient water being solved in the atmosphere would have killed every human life at that time, and the energy released in its downfall would have made the atmosphere's temperature rise to hundreds of degree, thus cooking everyone.
And oxygen actually is toxic in high concentrations, and it does nothing to stop the degradation of telomeres, which is one of the main reasons why people age.

Genesis
19And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Now the highest hills.

Does that not totally defeat the point of the flood and the ark if not the whole earth was covered?
And the bible quite clearly states that the whole earth was covered:

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

One the waters power could cause immense errosion causing 1,000's of feet to appear,

Huh? How is that supposed to work? Erosion removes ground and moves it to lower altitudes, it does not form mountains.

or no 2 the waters could cause cracks in the ground causing the plates to shift pushing up the mountains further.

Impossible and there is no evidence supporting this whatsoever either.

sea shells on top of mountains like Mt. Everest etc.

Plate tectonics explains this...and it also explains the precise age of these fossils.

And how are corals supposed to have survived a global deluge? Even minor changes in salinity and temperature kill them.

Cubits were used by egytians. 515 feet = 1 cubit. So the highest of any known mountains were 515 x 15 cubts = 7,725 feet high.

Where did you get that from?
A cubit is based on the length of a human forearm, varying in length from 1.75 to 2.25 feet.

That passage means that the mountains were covered by roughly 30 feet deep water.


More mention of mountains:
8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

 

[caseypayne1980]

How is it supposed to have formed during the flood? It's meandering and has vertical slopes. It's also cut deeply into the vishnu basalt. It basically screams "i took millions of years to form".
And why is it unique if the flood was supposed to be global? There should be many such canyons all over the world then.

For all we know it could have been considerable loose soil compared to others. Eventhing can scream anything if you think about it hard enough. Perhaps the land that is the Grandcanyon was once under water to begin with giving it loose dirt.

The atmospheric pressure of sufficient water being solved in the atmosphere would have killed every human life at that time, and the energy released in its downfall would have made the atmosphere's temperature rise to hundreds of degree, thus cooking everyone.
And oxygen actually is toxic in high concentrations, and it does nothing to stop the degradation of telomeres, which is one of the main reasons why people age.

Would have killed everyone if God didn't play a part, or if we just have the wrong numbers such thinking it would.

What I meant was perhaps the mountains had errosion on there bases making them taller, but it would be more likely that plates shifted. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions can shift plates for this to happen. 515 feet = 1 cubit is an Egytian measurement.

 

[jwu]

For all we know it could have been considerable loose soil compared to others. Eventhing can scream anything if you think about it hard enough. Perhaps the land that is the Grandcanyon was once under water to begin with giving it loose dirt.

Exactly that is the problem...loose matter couldn't form vertical slopes, it'd collapse under its own weight. And in order to cut this deep into solid rock there wouldn't have been nearly enough time.

What about the other points?

What I meant was perhaps the mountains had errosion on there bases making them taller,

How is this supposed to work? How would the matter from the base get on top of the mountain? And that wouldn't solve the problem either, as it requires them to be covered up to the final height

Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions can shift plates for this to happen.

Not without utterly shattering the mountain, leaving tons of evidence. It's not there. The energy released in such a process would leave traces.

515 feet = 1 cubit is an Egytian measurement.

No.
You might be confusing feet with millemetres. A royal egyptian cubit is the width of seven palms (four fingers wide each), which is about 525 millimetres.

http://www.secretacademy.com/pages/eygypstandards.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Eg ... easurement

 

[caseypayne1980]

No.
You might be confusing feet with millemetres. A royal egyptian cubit is the width of seven palms (four fingers wide each), which is about 525 millimetres.

http://www.secretacademy.com/pages/eygypstandards.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Eg ... easurement

A wikipedia is a crap source and B Yes, Egyptians used 515 feet per 1 cubic.

 

[jwu]

Wikipedia is as reliable as the Encyclopedia Britannica about non-controversial issues.

I've given you another source as well. It's up to you now to give a source for your standpoint; just saying so doesn't make it so.

Even other creationists disagree about this by the way. After all, the dimensions of the supposed ark were given in cubits too.

Fom Answers In Genesis:

The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15), which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet.

So they use 46.7cm or 18.3 inches as the length of one cubit...

And do you propose that the ark was 300*515ft=154,500 feet long? That's more than 29 miles!

 

[caseypayne1980]

Wikipedia is as reliable as the Encyclopedia Britannica about non-controversial issues.

I've given you another source as well. It's up to you now to give a source for your standpoint; just saying so doesn't make it so.

Even other creationists disagree about this by the way. After all, the dimensions of the supposed ark were given in cubits too.

Fom Answers In Genesis:

So they use 46.7cm or 18.3 inches as the length of one cubit...

And do you propose that the ark was 300*515ft=154,500 feet long? That's more than 29 miles!

I can't remember the website that said 515= 1 cubit. And I am fully aware that there was no standard in measurement till the last 300 to 500 years. But lets agree with 1 1/2 feet = 1 cubit. Which would compare to Noahs ark and the Ark of the Covenant size. Now the mountains were 15 cubits which in turn would be 22.5 feet.

 

[jwu]

I can't remember the website that said 515= 1 cubit.

It probably was talking about 515 millimetres then.

Now the mountains were 15 cubits which in turn would be 22.5 feet.

And that's not even worth being called a hill.., clearly indicating that this interpretation is wrong. After all, a flood of such a ridiculous depth wouldn't even cover some buildings or trees. One wouldn't even need an ark then...just a platform ten metres above the ground.
And you suggested that the noachian flood carved the grand canyon. How are 22.5 feet of water supposed to accomplish that?

 

[caseypayne1980]

And that's not even worth being called a hill.., clearly indicating that this interpretation is wrong. After all, a flood of such a ridiculous depth wouldn't even cover some buildings or trees. One wouldn't even need an ark then...just a platform ten metres above the ground.
And you suggested that the noachian flood carved the grand canyon. How are 22.5 feet of water supposed to accomplish that?

5 feet of water could kill the world we live in now if we weren't prepared. And standing on land above just 5 feet would eventually kill everyone off above it in hunger having to go without food for a year. Most if any above ground structures would eventually fall apart do to the force of any current anyway. Look at what Hurricanes and Tsunami bring. Both capable of knocking down buildings of today. What I'm saying is yes 22 feet of water would be enough to kill all.

 

[jwu]

And standing on land above just 5 feet would eventually kill everyone off above it in hunger having to go without food for a year.

People tend to build up storages...that's how they survive through half a year without food production in the cold seasons. And in case of famines it happens occasionally that there is no new food supply for a year or so.

Look at what Hurricanes and Tsunami bring. Both capable of knocking down buildings of today.

Hurricanes would have destroyed the ark too though, and tsunamis don't work without a shoreline, they need a change from deep to shallow water to build up. On the open sea a tsunami is completely harmless, and on shallow water one cannot form.

What I'm saying is yes 22 feet of water would be enough to kill all.

Plants? And how about fishermen anyway? They could live on their boats.

So...do you seriously suggest that the noachian flood was 22.5 feet deep?

 

[caseypayne1980]

Hurricanes would have destroyed the ark too though, and tsunamis don't work without a shoreline, they need a change from deep to shallow water to build up. On the open sea a tsunami is completely harmless, and on shallow water one cannot form.

I agree about how Tsumami's work. I was talking about the destruction they cause. Hurricanes could destory the ark unless "oh wait theres more" God had a hand in it which he did to protect them.

People tend to build up storages...that's how they survive through half a year without food production in the cold seasons. And in case of famines it happens occasionally that there is no new food supply for a year or so.

1.) food storage would probably be on a low level and flooded out. 2.) Keep believing you would have enough food for a year.

Plants? And how about fishermen anyway? They could live on their boats.

So...do you seriously suggest that the noachian flood was 22.5 feet deep?

Plants are not included in this topic, and eventually that fisherman is gonna run out of rods or string and die off.

 

[jwu]

I was talking about the destruction they cause. Hurricanes could destory the ark unless "oh wait theres more" God had a hand in it which he did to protect them.

Then what's the point of the whole ark anyway?

1.) food storage would probably be on a low level and flooded out.

People tend to bring their storages to higher levels when a flooding occurs

2.) Keep believing you would have enough food for a year.

Total losses of harvest happened frequently and sometimes even successive over several years in history, yet people survived from limited storages. And then there is fish...

Plants are not included in this topic,

From now on they are.

and eventually that fisherman is gonna run out of rods or string and die off.

They use nets...and they even repair them themselves with minimal requirements. Also note that a fisherman gets much more fish than he consumes himself, he sells most of it. So if it's only about his own supply and that of his close family, the resources of a fisherboat are more than sufficient.

So what depth do you propose for the flood? Put the cards down on the table.

 

[Barbarian]

Can you say "reducto ad absurdum?"

Well, done jwu. Rarely can you get them to go to the logical conclusions of their YE beliefs.

 

[caseypayne1980]

They use nets...and they even repair them themselves with minimal requirements. Also note that a fisherman gets much more fish than he consumes himself, he sells most of it. So if it's only about his own supply and that of his close family, the resources of a fisherboat are more than sufficient.

So what depth do you propose for the flood? Put the cards down on the table.

I noticed from a pm I received that you guys take christian posts and put them on other websites. And make it look like there posts. Very mature.
http://www.fstdt.com/comments.asp?id=18300
Links like that that I have nothing to do with.


A fish net only works in water, that is shallow or the the length of the net. While the fisherman himself may have fish for food he will not have water to drink. Unless you propose for him to drink ocean water which will eventually cause dehydration and kill him.


Both of you guys are lost individuals.

 

[caseypayne1980]

They use nets...and they even repair them themselves with minimal requirements. Also note that a fisherman gets much more fish than he consumes himself, he sells most of it. So if it's only about his own supply and that of his close family, the resources of a fisherboat are more than sufficient.

So what depth do you propose for the flood? Put the cards down on the table.

I noticed from a pm I received that you guys take christian posts and put them on other websites. And make it look like there posts. Very mature.
http://www.fstdt.com/comments.asp?id=18300
Links like that that I have nothing to do with.


A fish net only works in water, that is shallow or the the length of the net. While the fisherman himself may have fish for food he will not have water to drink. Unless you propose for him to drink ocean water which will eventually cause dehydration and kill him. And his boat will only last so long in a 40 day rain, so your telling me he's going to fish and scoop the water out? lol and you think you think things through.


Both of you guys are lost individuals.

 

[Slevin]

Plants are not included in this topic, and eventually that fisherman is gonna run out of rods or string and die off.

Those darn disposable rods...

 

[Slevin]

A fish net only works in water, that is shallow or the the length of the net. While the fisherman himself may have fish for food he will not have water to drink. Unless you propose for him to drink ocean water which will eventually cause dehydration and kill him. And his boat will only last so long in a 40 day rain, so your telling me he's going to fish and scoop the water out? lol and you think you think things through.

What are you talking about? A fishing net works anywhere.

Oh, so the fisherman wont have water but Noah can magically create some out of thin air.