My latest attempt at connecting the dots vs. OSAS

[dadof10]

Are you thinking of abandoning Him anytime soon?? Can someone who is born-again become un-born??

To the first question, no. I don't think any believer plans to reject Christ, but it happens all the time. We are sinners.

The second is an illogical argument. Can a person who has been born be "born again"?


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[Guest]

@John Zain Saying that OSAS is false is spreading false beliefs to my brothers and sisters.
Hitler doctrine is false.

Okay, that's a fair assertion ... because it is a very important subject indeed.

Now, what do you think about all of the many dozens of warnings given to the churches,
some actually warning about losing eternal life?

Our consequences is our own, what you reap is what you sow. Just leave it at that. How a born again Christian can say OSAS is false is beyond my understanding. Are you trying to prove how holy you are? I don't get it. The love that Jesus has for us is forever. They're not warnings about losing eternal life, their warnings about falling into sin and repenting once more. Stop phrasing your threads in a way that says OSAS is false, rather stick with what's biblical and true and at the same time, it's ok to tell people to repent. OSAS is truth John, you need to face that fact. The love of Jesus will never leave us. Blessings.

 

[Grappler]

Are you thinking of abandoning Him anytime soon?? Can someone who is born-again become un-born??

To the first question, no. I don't think any believer plans to reject Christ, but it happens all the time. We are sinners.

The second is an illogical argument. Can a person who has been born be "born again"?


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

It happens all the time?? How do you know? How do you know that these people who as you say are all the time abandoning Christ were even true believers to begin with? Actually it would be illogical for you to argue against the second question...So therefore the answer for the second question is no. You asked me 'Can a person who has been born be "born again"? Read the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in John chapter 3 and you will find your answer.

 

[Guest]

Saying that OSAS is false is saying that the blood of Christ itself isn't blood God deity. God the Father, the creator of all things. Let's show some respect for our God.

 

[John Zain]

Now, what do you think about all of the many dozens of warnings
given to the churches, some actually warning about losing eternal life?

OSAS is truth John, you need to face that fact. The love of Jesus will never leave us.

Do you mean the love God had for His "chosen people" in the OT?
Let's look up all of those passages where He talks about His "everlasting love" for them.
The last to post 10 of them is a monkey's uncle!

His love was SO everlasting that he left 99% of them scattered all over the desert floor!
And Paul warned us several times: this was written as an example for us!
It pains me to keep repeating this every day.

And we are God's new "chosen people" of a new and better covenant.
It's better because we have the Holy Spirit to help us be sanctified overcomers!
Our part is simply to co-operate by constantly repenting of our sins.

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[Guest]

It pains me to keep repeating this every day.

Yeah you must be exhausted that, no one understands what you're saying.

 

[reba]

Is it necessary to be rude when some one is pouring out his heart...moderator

 

[Guest]

Here’s my latest attempt to explain why OSAS is false

@reba , come again..

 

[Grappler]

Is it necessary to be rude when some one is pouring out his heart...moderator

In post #9 he told me that he 'could care less'....just saying

 

[reba]

Is it necessary to be rude when some one is pouring out his heart...moderator To every one of us

 

[dadof10]

Are you thinking of abandoning Him anytime soon?? Can someone who is born-again become un-born??

To the first question, no. I don't think any believer plans to reject Christ, but it happens all the time. We are sinners.

The second is an illogical argument. Can a person who has been born be "born again"?


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

It happens all the time?? How do you know? How do you know that these people who as you say are all the time abandoning Christ were even true believers to begin with?

Well, I have known three who were "shown to be righteous" who are no longer Christian, one even an atheist. I would be willing to bet that you think that by "justified" James means "shown to be righteous", therefore, it's possible to prove to people you have a true, saving faith. Believing this interpretation of James 2 makes it kinda hard to hold the position that EVERYONE who backslides "was never saved in the first place". Either it's possible to "show" true faith, making it possible to lose salvation, or by "justified", James doesn't mean "shown to be righteous". You can't have it both ways.

Have you ever known anyone who has shown a true faith, yet reverted back to a life of sin?

Actually it would be illogical for you to argue against the second question...So therefore the answer for the second question is no. You asked me 'Can a person who has been born be "born again"? Read the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in John chapter 3 and you will find your answer.

No, you have constructed a non-sequitur. This is your "gotcha" line on this topic, but it doesn't follow. I'm sure you'll agree that Jesus is talking spiritual rebirth, and I'm sure you'll also agree that physical rebirth is impossible. You are trying to make the case that because it's physically impossible to become "unborn" then it's spiritually impossible to be come "un-born again", or unsaved. It doesn't follow.

If it's spiritually possible to become "born again", a physical impossibility, then another physical impossibility, becoming "un-born" is not logically ruled out by this analogy. It is possible to become spiritually "un-born", if you want to put it that way, even though it's physically impossible, because it's possible to become spiritually "born again" even though it's physically impossible.

 

[Grappler]

Well, I have known three who were "shown to be righteous" who are no longer Christian, one even an atheist. I would be willing to bet that you think that by "justified" James means "shown to be righteous", therefore, it's possible to prove to people you have a true, saving faith. Believing this interpretation of James 2 makes it kinda hard to hold the position that EVERYONE who backslides "was never saved in the first place". Either it's possible to "show" true faith, making it possible to lose salvation, or by "justified", James doesn't mean "shown to be righteous". You can't have it both ways.

Have you ever known anyone who has shown a true faith, yet reverted back to a life of sin?

Actually it would be illogical for you to argue against the second question...So therefore the answer for the second question is no. You asked me 'Can a person who has been born be "born again"? Read the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in John chapter 3 and you will find your answer.

No, you have constructed a non-sequitur. This is your "gotcha" line on this topic, but it doesn't follow. I'm sure you'll agree that Jesus is talking spiritual rebirth, and I'm sure you'll also agree that physical rebirth is impossible. You are trying to make the case that because it's physically impossible to become "unborn" then it's spiritually impossible to be come "un-born again", or unsaved. It doesn't follow.

If it's spiritually possible to become "born again", a physical impossibility, then another physical impossibility, becoming "un-born" is not logically ruled out by this analogy. It is possible to become spiritually "un-born", if you want to put it that way, even though it's physically impossible, because it's possible to become spiritually "born again" even though it's physically impossible.

Actually it does follow, that is why Jesus used this analogy. Why would he have used this analogy if it did not follow? That was a cute play with words there but lets be logical shall we? A man comes into this world through being born. A man comes into the Kingdom of God through being born-again...a spiritual birth if you will. I am a man who has been born-again...a new creature in Christ as i believe Paul said. Now tell me freind now that i am a born-again new creature in Christ, how is that going to change? Can a leopard change his spots? Oh yes i know it happens all the time you say...and i say how do you know? How do you know what is going on in men's hearts? How do you know that they were even a new-creature in Christ to begin with?

 

[francisdesales]

Here’s my latest attempt to explain why OSAS is false
… I have connected a few previously unconnected dots!
All verses are from the NKJV.

• God looks forward to His new covenant
He gave up on the old covenant … His “chosen people†could not be obedient to it.
“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant …
I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God,
and they shall be My people … they all shall know Me, from the least of them
to the greatest of them, says the LORD.†(Jeremiah 31:31-34)
“I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you … I will put My Spirit
within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments
and do them … you shall be My people, and I will be your God.†(Ezekiel 36:26-28)
These promises sure sound like what most BACs experience!
BACs have God’s Spirit inside of them to teach them “all thingsâ€
“… you are the temple of God and the Spirit of God dwells in you†(1 Cor 3:16)
“… the Helper, the Holy Spirit … He will teach you all things†(John 14:26)

• The simple gospel: “whosoever believes†… is like a hook to catch fishes
This is just to get these baby fishes started … no deep water and easy swimming!

• But, says Jesus: FIRST count the cost of discipleship before really signing on
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children,
brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not
sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it
— lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it
begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? …
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.â€
(Luke 14:26-33)
So, those who decide they have what it takes … have chosen to continue on …

• Says Jesus: It’s about having a personal relationship with Father God and Me
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.†(John 17:3)
“I know My sheep, and I am known by My own … My sheep hear My voice,
and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life†(John 10:14, 27)
There is a very intimate “knowing†relationship between a shepherd and his sheep!
Read about it here: http://www.amazon.com/Shepherd-Looks-Psalm-23/dp/0310274419

• Says Jesus: Eternal life is given ONLY to those who do God’s will
“Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven … I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’†(Matthew 7:19-21)

And the following is part of God’s will …

• Says Paul: We must by led by the Holy Spirit in the killing of the flesh
“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
… those who live according to the Spirit, (set their minds on) the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death … Because the carnal mind is enmity against God
… For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.†(Romans 8:1-14)

• Says Paul: We must co-operate with God’s Spirit in the sanctification process
Many of the NT translations say both our sanctification and salvation are processes.
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit,
soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)
I.E. we were not totally sanctified at the new birth.
“… that He might sanctify and cleanse her (the church) with the washing of water by the word,
that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any
such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.†(Ephesians 5:25-27)
I.E. this washing by the word is a continuing process.
“For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one†(Hebrews 2:11)
“For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.†(Hebrews 10:14)
“… to us who are being saved it (the gospel) is the power of God.†(1 Corinthians 1:18)
“… God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
and belief in the truth …†(2 Thessalonians 2:13)
Were we sanctified (set apart) at the new birth by the Holy Spirit, or by Father God?
If we co-operate, we will be sanctified by the Holy Spirit during the long sanctification process.

Well here is mine "All that the Father has given me will come to me, and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." John 6:37 :p

Keep reading. Read John 6:66...

Not everyone who came to Jesus REMAINED with Jesus. No, Jesus won't cast out those selected by the Father, but you don't know if you are one of them.

And since you don't know the future, you will just have to wait until judgment day like the rest of us...

I know my Father and ye dishonor me when ye say that i do not, but i forgive thee and pray that one day ye shall know my Father also.

The Jews who clashed with Jesus said the same thing...

I don't give much credence to self-styled knowledge, esp. when it comes with the proud statement, "you don't know the Father and I do".

 

[francisdesales]

Saying that OSAS is false is saying that the blood of Christ itself isn't blood God deity. God the Father, the creator of all things. Let's show some respect for our God.

That is an incredible stretch to make that connection, urk.

No one here has said anything about the blood of Christ not being the blood of God. This is about whether a person can remove themselves from the New Covenant, not arguing about what Christ has done.

John has given a number of logical reasons why OSAS makes little sense. So far, I have heard no answers to them, just emotional pleas and self-congratulatory responses from the self-anointed "sheep" on this thread...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Actually it does follow, that is why Jesus used this analogy. Why would he have used this analogy if it did not follow? That was a cute play with words there but lets be logical shall we? A man comes into this world through being born. A man comes into the Kingdom of God through being born-again...a spiritual birth if you will. I am a man who has been born-again...

Grappler, just as a person who is physically born can die, a person who is spiritually born can also die. He can return to the "vomit" of his former life of sin. A person who commits a mortal sin is spiritually dead. The fact that this is possible explains the many exhortations to remain in Christ. For if it was 'impossible' to become spiritually dead, there would be no need of such warnings.

 

[Grappler]

Keep reading. Read John 6:66...

Not everyone who came to Jesus REMAINED with Jesus. No, Jesus won't cast out those selected by the Father, but you don't know if you are one of them.

And since you don't know the future, you will just have to wait until judgment day like the rest of us...

I know my Father and ye dishonor me when ye say that i do not, but i forgive thee and pray that one day ye shall know my Father also.

The Jews who clashed with Jesus said the same thing...

I don't give much credence to self-styled knowledge, esp. when it comes with the proud statement, "you don't know the Father and I do".

What you give or don't give credit to means nothing to me nor my Father. I didn't say 'you don't know the Father and I do'...stop posting falsehoods. Why are you jealous of those us who know the Father and that have a relationship with him through his Son Jesus?

 

[Grappler]

Actually it does follow, that is why Jesus used this analogy. Why would he have used this analogy if it did not follow? That was a cute play with words there but lets be logical shall we? A man comes into this world through being born. A man comes into the Kingdom of God through being born-again...a spiritual birth if you will. I am a man who has been born-again...

Grappler, just as a person who is physically born can die, a person who is spiritually born can also die. He can return to the "vomit" of his former life of sin. A person who commits a mortal sin is spiritually dead. The fact that this is possible explains the many exhortations to remain in Christ. For if it was 'impossible' to become spiritually dead, there would be no need of such warnings.

I disagree. Once a person is "born-again" as Jesus taught Nicodemus then he has eternal life. He won't experience the "second death"...which is death of the soul in the lake of fire. Could you please post some scripture about the differences in "mortal sin" and just regular sin? I don't know much about that. Thank you.

 

[Brother Mike]

I thought this OSAS doctrine was a Baptist thing who also believe in Election by which God picks who gets saved and not saved in the first place. Since God picks, then once saved the person would have no choice on their own to not be saved. Even if they wanted to leave Jesus they could not because they have no choice.

If OSAS is true and man has no choice. Then Heb 6 and 10 are not true. Paul did not have to turn someone over to Satan to be destroyed so their spirit would be saved (Hopes they at least repent and not get to a place of no turning back) John lied about a brother sinning a sin unto death and we should pray for that when the sin is committed as John was wrong. No sheep that was lost but found again. I think it's about the belief of man being able to choose or not choose.

If we don't have a choice, then not children and mere pawns in God's game.

Mike.

 

[John Zain]

Is it necessary to be rude when some one is pouring out his heart...moderator

Please don't be too hard on Urk.
I have posted this info in several places ... and there always seems to
be some who insist that they have NO idea what I'm talking about!
And I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[chessman]

I would be willing to bet that you think that by "justified" James means "shown to be righteous", therefore, it's possible to prove to people you have a true, saving faith.

I would be willing to bet you that James thinks differently than you say. Because he said:

Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
(James 2:5 ESV)

I would be willing to bet you that James didn’t think God chose anyone incorrectly. Thinking they would, in fact, not be heirs of the kingdom.
I would be willing to bet you that James thinks God’s promise here is a good, 100% faithful/effective promise.
I would be willing to be you that in James 2:22, James had not suddenly forgotten what he just got through saying in James 2:18 and the illustration he just gave in James 1 and somehow moved away from physical events/actions of people being an INDICATION of their true faith within:

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18 ESV)

My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? (James 2:1-4 ESV)
​

James’ clear point is that outwardly appearances/actions are not always the perfect test for us humans to know someone’s true heart and surely not what saves us in the first place (we are chosen as he just got through saying). Jesus knows the true heart of a person. All us humans have to go on for our indications are people’s actions and words (like seating preference or our sacrifices). That’s why James can say:

and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:23-24 ESV)
​

God counted “it” (belief that fullfilled) as Abraham’s righteousness (even though Abraham had sinned during his lifetime). But “YOU SEE” a person is justified by works…

God’s eye is toward the heart of a person. Man’s eye is toward the actions (like sitting rich people in better seats or even sacrices that we might make).

Therefore, I see no indication scripturally when you read the whole passage of James, teaching anything about people literally/actually slipping in/out of salvation.

How would James even know for sure that Abraham was counted as righteous unless He thought God had chosen him for that purpose? It makes no sense otherwise.

Nor does Peter ever teach such as that either.

If James thought people could slip in/out of salvation, he would have never said: Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
(James 2:5 ESV)

James never thought people choose God, he says something 180 degrees from that. God chose people (His elect).

James never thought those “beloved brothers” could not be “heirs of the kingdom” if he thought they could slip back out of that “promise”.