My latest attempt at connecting the dots vs. OSAS

[John Zain]

Well, I have known three who were "shown to be righteous"
who are no longer Christian, one even an atheist.

Spirit-filled pastors claim to have experienced this, i.e. known such people.
I experienced this with a guy who is now Muslim.
He claimed to have been born-again and Spirit-filled ...
but in doing some research, he lost his faith in the reliability of Scripture.
He and his wife are now hiding out somewhere in Idaho doing their Muslim thing.

 

[Guest]

This is about whether a person can remove themselves from the New Covenant, not arguing about what Christ has done.

If you think a born again Christian can 'remove themselves' from the blood of Christ that is permanently sealed into their veins, then you have underestimated God's omnipotence. Religion kills.

 

[reba]

That was meant for all of us John.. We may disagree but we are brothers and sisters in the Lord. Not one of us is free of the sin of being so unkind.... Jesus said what ever you do to the least of these..... my post was not intended as a direct hit on urk...the intent was to flash a yield sign to the body of posters..... remembering to make sure my posts reflect things across the board is something i need to remember..

 

[chessman]

You had the reformed doctrines pretty much correct, right up until you say:

Even if they wanted to leave Jesus they could not because they have no choice. If OSAS is true and man has no choice.

reformed (OSAS) doctrines are derrived from the Scriptures. There is no reformed doctrine that states "man [they] has [have] no choice". This is often a mis-representation of what Irresistable Grace does means. Many non-reformed people (even some that say they are reformed but havn't studied the doctrines much) state as being our doctrines when in fact it's not. That's a strawman argument. They then argue against this strawman, which is not even what OSAS or Irresistable grace/Perserverance of the Saints means in the first place.


That's why you are right;

If we don't have a choice, then not children and mere pawns in God's game.

if we don't have any choice(s). But no-one knowledgabel about reformed theology (OSAS) even beleives we don't have free-will.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] no worries my dear, have a good day. :nod

 

[John Zain]

I thought this OSAS doctrine was a Baptist thing who also believe in Election by which God picks who gets saved and not saved in the first place. Since God picks, then once saved the person would have no choice on their own to not be saved. Even if they wanted to leave Jesus they could not because they have no choice.
If OSAS is true and man has no choice. Then Heb 6 and 10 are not true. Paul did not have to turn someone over to Satan to be destroyed so their spirit would be saved (Hopes they at least repent and not get to a place of no turning back) John lied about a brother sinning a sin unto death and we should pray for that when the sin is committed as John was wrong. No sheep that was lost but found again. I think it's about the belief of man being able to choose or not choose.
If we don't have a choice, then not children and mere pawns in God's game.

Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm repeating myself here ...

God created His angels and humans to have free-will.
He did not desire the co-operation of robots, or to to be worshipped by robots.

Throughout the OT, God shows Himself as being desirous of working hand-in-hand with man
... His plan has always been to attain man's co-operation in fulfilling His goals on earth.

Election, or no election ...
Man is free to choose to accept God's free gift of grace-faith, or to reject it.
Ditto for choosing (or rejecting) to co-operate with his difficult sanctification process.

 

[JLB]

After all Paul had witnessed in His life, he stated this simple truth -

This is a faithful saying, the Lord knows who are His.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

John Zain

Well, you are bringing up someone that receives God's free grace as a gift. The question is that once a man receives that, do they have to choice not to keep it. Meaning the walk away of their own "WILL" and say I would rather serve Buddha the Belly God.

Then a person not use to this election or non-election may consider that sinning a bit to much may cross you over that line into perdition. Just step right over the edge into the fires of Hell. Not something they intended or wanted to happen, it just did because they are goof-balls and did not watch the sin meter close enough.

It's hard to understand what perspective someone is coming from. There is a hard line Calvinism that believe God picks and chooses who is saved, and nothing can get a person unsaved once picked. Some have more watered down election doctrine versions, but it's all election and the same just diluted. Even where I go to Church who believe man chooses, but it's still heard that God knows the end from the beginning (Misquoting ISA) and therefore since God knows anyway, it's still not a real choice. That is the underlying belief though they won't admit to any election doctrine.

I believe scripture tells us that it would be dumb to choose not to be saved once saved. So making that choice should not come up much. Jesus talked about the tree, and it was suggest to him that it need to be cut down as it does not produce fruit. Jesus said, give it a chance, fertilize it and check back in a year. If no fruit, then cast it into the fire. Man's work is tried by fire, and if man takes his own path once saved, not being the body part intended to be, I believe their works are burned up, but still saved. If a man by choice wants to leave God, then by choice God is not going to make them stay.

Blessings.
Mike.

 

[dadof10]

I would be willing to be you that in James 2:22, James had not suddenly forgotten what he just got through saying in James 2:18 and the illustration he just gave in James 1 and somehow moved away from physical events/actions of people being an INDICATION of their true faith within:

So, as I said, James 2 is talking about SHOWING (or indicating or proving or displaying) a person's true, saving faith, correct? This means that logically it's possible for a person to show, to all humans he comes in contact with, that he is saved/justified, correct?

If a person has shown his true, saving faith, then reverts back to his old, sinful life, how can you possibly say that he "was never saved in the first place"? He has proved it, correct?

If you interpret "justified" in James 2 to mean "shown to be righteous", it's possible for a person to outwardly show or prove to others he is justified by his OUTWARD DEEDS. I have known many "born again" Christians who have done nothing but show their "true faith". Almost every word that comes from their mouths is "Jesus". They pray constantly, go to church, refrain from sin...in short, they live every aspect of their lives for Jesus. By ANYONE'S definition, they "show their righteousness". I'm sure you have known people like this, you are probably one, it's the status-quo for a newly born again Christian.

Now, have you ever known a person who fits the mold I've outlined above, then REVERTED to their former life? I submit it's, unfortunately, pretty common.

 

[dadof10]

Actually it does follow, that is why Jesus used this analogy. Why would he have used this analogy if it did not follow?

Jesus never said "un-born", you did. Jesus ONLY says "born again". That's the only analogy He uses here. You are the one stretching this analogy to illogicality.

Because Jesus uses the analogy of birth to show a spiritual truth, doesn't mean that every aspect of birth is included in it.

That was a cute play with words there but lets be logical shall we? A man comes into this world through being born. A man comes into the Kingdom of God through being born-again...a spiritual birth if you will. I am a man who has been born-again...a new creature in Christ as i believe Paul said. Now tell me freind now that i am a born-again new creature in Christ, how is that going to change? Can a leopard change his spots?

Obviously he can, you "changed" into a "new creation" through faith, correct? If you lose this faith, you will REVERT back into your old self. It is through faith, an action, that you are saved, if you lose this faith, you will lose your salvation. Sounds pretty logical to me, friend.

Oh yes i know it happens all the time you say...and i say how do you know? How do you know what is going on in men's hearts?

Really? If a person backslides, he is what, Grappler? "Never saved in the first place", right? And how do you know this? Isn't it because of his OUTWARD ACTIONS? When you say this, are you "judging men's hearts"? A little more logic and a little less drama please.

How do you know that they were even a new-creature in Christ to begin with?

The same way you judge that he was "never saved in the first place", by his outward actions. According to you, James 2 teaches this exact doctrine, that we can see a man's "true faith" by his actions. A man can "show" his justification by what he does, the same way he can show his loss of salvation by his actions.

 

[dadof10]

Grappler, just as a person who is physically born can die, a person who is spiritually born can also die. He can return to the "vomit" of his former life of sin. A person who commits a mortal sin is spiritually dead. The fact that this is possible explains the many exhortations to remain in Christ. For if it was 'impossible' to become spiritually dead, there would be no need of such warnings.

Well, put...

 

[francisdesales]

What you give or don't give credit to means nothing to me nor my Father. I didn't say 'you don't know the Father and I do'...stop posting falsehoods. Why are you jealous of those us who know the Father and that have a relationship with him through his Son Jesus?

What are you talking about "posting falsehoods"? Are you daft? Go read YOUR post from this thread, #13.


I know my Father and ye dishonor me when ye say that i do not, but i forgive thee and pray that one day ye shall know my Father also


You pray that some day that I know "your" Father. Which means I don't now.

Kid, get off your high horse and stop making such hypocritical comments about ME making false comments. Can't you even remember what you wrote?

If you can prove that OSAS is true, prove it with Scripture citations, not your own subjective experiences of God knows what...

A lot of people said "Lord, Lord" and Jesus never knew that person. Says a lot about self-promotion, doesn't it...

You know Jesus as you obey the commandments, not just because you said so. And when/if you stop obeying the commandments, you don't have Jesus. Simple as that. Thus, OSAS is false, despite your wishful thinking and your little smiley faces.

1 John 5:12

 

[Mike]

Do not say, hint, elude to, side-step, or in any way imply that someone who claims Christ does not know Him. Violations could result in infractions, loss of permissions to the A&T, all future posts set to require staff approval, or something else.

There is nothing of value or convincing about such low level argumentation.

 

[francisdesales]

This is about whether a person can remove themselves from the New Covenant, not arguing about what Christ has done.

If you think a born again Christian can 'remove themselves' from the blood of Christ that is permanently sealed into their veins, then you have underestimated God's omnipotence. Religion kills.

It appears that the writer of Sacred Scripture also "underestimates" God's omnipotence. See Hebrews 10:26-30. Or 2 Peter 2:20-22. Or numerous other places where the Scriptures tell us to beware, remain, persevere, etc...

And with your line of logic, EVERYONE is saved and going to heaven, since Christ died for ALL men, not just the ones who did an altar call and got all teary-eyed and goose-bumps everywhere, jumping for joy, AMEN!

If even ONE person doesn't make it to heaven, does THAT underestimate God's omnipotence? Does that mean God is no longer all powerful, since Christ died for all men and ONE person resides in hell?

Religion kills? I thought people kill. James, another writer of Scripture, disagrees with your take on religion.

Regards

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Romans 14:19

"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification".

 

[Deborah13]

Religion kills? I thought people kill. James, another writer of Scripture, disagrees with your take on religion.

What scripture in James?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What scripture in James?[/quote

James 1:26,27

 

[chessman]

So, as I said, James 2 is talking about SHOWING (or indicating or proving or displaying) a person's true, saving faith, correct?

Yes, I believe that is correct. SHOWING to people does not equal SHOWING to God or that people cannot SHOW something that’s false. For example, there’s a member profile field on this Forum for people to select Christian (Yes/No). When they select Yes, it does not equal to God that they are indeed truly saved. But it does imply it to us members who have nothing else to go by in our determination of their salvation than that field. God, however, knows each of our hearts and it's His dtermination to make, not ours.

This means that logically it's possible for a person to show, to all humans he comes in contact with, that he is saved/justified, correct?

Yes. I’d say that is correct. But “show†does not equal reality.

I cannot really make this point any better/clearer than Peter does in 2 Peter 2 except to update his phrase proverb from the OT language using our modern invention of lipstick;

“You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig.†versus

What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.†(2 Peter 2:22 ESV)
​

or

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV) [implied answer=no]
​

If a person has shown his true, saving faith, then reverts back to his old, sinful life, how can you possibly say that he "was never saved in the first place"?

I cannot say one way or the other about any individual person. Only God can say what is “True, saving faithâ€. But I can read Peter and James and Paul, etc.

That’s exactly what James and Peter are both saying. So all I can do is ask that you read the two Scriptures above (in the context of their entire message) and answer for yourself based on what these Scriptures say. I have and the answer is OSAS=yes.

He has proved it, correct?

“Proved†to man is NOT the same thing as “proved†to God.

Now, have you ever known a person who fits the mold I've outlined above, then REVERTED to their former life? I submit it's, unfortunately, pretty common.

yes. I’m sure there are people for example that select Christian=Yes, but in fact they are not truly saved. Peter calls these type of people "false prophets", "dogs" and "pigs".

Paul was called Saul until God blinded him for a while and showed him just how his ideas about his personal righteousness was wrong.

 

[Deborah13]

What scripture in James?[/quote

James 1:26,27

Thanks allenwynne.

This is the Gk. for "religion" in this verse according to the Greek Interlinear Bible.
qrhskos

thrEskos

G2357
a_ Nom Sg m


RITUAList

So our religion should not be one of ritual but be active. IMO that is what it is saying. Not a religion of men but of God.

 

[Grappler]

What you give or don't give credit to means nothing to me nor my Father. I didn't say 'you don't know the Father and I do'...stop posting falsehoods. Why are you jealous of those us who know the Father and that have a relationship with him through his Son Jesus?

What are you talking about "posting falsehoods"? Are you daft? Go read YOUR post from this thread, #13.


I know my Father and ye dishonor me when ye say that i do not, but i forgive thee and pray that one day ye shall know my Father also


You pray that some day that I know "your" Father. Which means I don't now.

Kid, get off your high horse and stop making such hypocritical comments about ME making false comments. Can't you even remember what you wrote?

If you can prove that OSAS is true, prove it with Scripture citations, not your own subjective experiences of God knows what...

A lot of people said "Lord, Lord" and Jesus never knew that person. Says a lot about self-promotion, doesn't it...

You know Jesus as you obey the commandments, not just because you said so. And when/if you stop obeying the commandments, you don't have Jesus. Simple as that. Thus, OSAS is false, despite your wishful thinking and your little smiley faces.

1 John 5:12

Scripture you say? John 6:37 "All that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." My salvation does not depend on me but on my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." I hear his voice francis.