My latest attempt at connecting the dots vs. OSAS

[Grappler]

Jesus never said "un-born", you did. Jesus ONLY says "born again". That's the only analogy He uses here. You are the one stretching this analogy to illogicality.

Because Jesus uses the analogy of birth to show a spiritual truth, doesn't mean that every aspect of birth is included in it.



Obviously he can, you "changed" into a "new creation" through faith, correct? If you lose this faith, you will REVERT back into your old self. It is through faith, an action, that you are saved, if you lose this faith, you will lose your salvation. Sounds pretty logical to me, friend.



Really? If a person backslides, he is what, Grappler? "Never saved in the first place", right? And how do you know this? Isn't it because of his OUTWARD ACTIONS? When you say this, are you "judging men's hearts"? A little more logic and a little less drama please.

How do you know that they were even a new-creature in Christ to begin with?

The same way you judge that he was "never saved in the first place", by his outward actions. According to you, James 2 teaches this exact doctrine, that we can see a man's "true faith" by his actions. A man can "show" his justification by what he does, the same way he can show his loss of salvation by his actions.

How many times can i be born-again?

 

[Grappler]

Yes, I believe that is correct. SHOWING to people does not equal SHOWING to God or that people cannot SHOW something that’s false. For example, there’s a member profile field on this Forum for people to select Christian (Yes/No). When they select Yes, it does not equal to God that they are indeed truly saved. But it does imply it to us members who have nothing else to go by in our determination of their salvation than that field. God, however, knows each of our hearts and it's His dtermination to make, not ours.

Yes. I’d say that is correct. But “show” does not equal reality.

I cannot really make this point any better/clearer than Peter does in 2 Peter 2 except to update his phrase proverb from the OT language using our modern invention of lipstick;

“You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig.” versus

What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:22 ESV)
​

or

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV) [implied answer=no]
​

I cannot say one way or the other about any individual person. Only God can say what is “True, saving faith”. But I can read Peter and James and Paul, etc.

That’s exactly what James and Peter are both saying. So all I can do is ask that you read the two Scriptures above (in the context of their entire message) and answer for yourself based on what these Scriptures say. I have and the answer is OSAS=yes.

He has proved it, correct?

“Proved” to man is NOT the same thing as “proved” to God.

Now, have you ever known a person who fits the mold I've outlined above, then REVERTED to their former life? I submit it's, unfortunately, pretty common.

yes. I’m sure there are people for example that select Christian=Yes, but in fact they are not truly saved. Peter calls these type of people "false prophets", "dogs" and "pigs".

Paul was called Saul until God blinded him for a while and showed him just how his ideas about his personal righteousness was wrong.

Well put chessman. Do you play over-the-board chess or internet chess?

 

[Grappler]

This is about whether a person can remove themselves from the New Covenant, not arguing about what Christ has done.

If you think a born again Christian can 'remove themselves' from the blood of Christ that is permanently sealed into their veins, then you have underestimated God's omnipotence. Religion kills.

Urk i would have to agree with you on this one. Some people really do underestimate the power of God and put WAY too much emphasis on their own works.

 

[Guest]

Regards

Saying that OSAS is false is religion and is not based on love. Telling people that if they make mistakes or do something wrong, they will lose their salvation. That's religion talking. God loved us first before we loved him. Him loving us first is not religion. Love is love, and his love is permanent. Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. People act like this is bad news. Rather this is the good news that we preach to the world.

 

[John Zain]

John 6:37 "All that the Father has given me will come to me
and whoever comes to me i will never cast out."
My salvation does not depend on me but on my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." I hear his voice

From an Administrator ...
OSAS fails at about OS - Once Saved.
The Biblical model of salvation involves repentance & regeneration,
and then the believer enters a state of salvation,
and those who persevere "to the end, shall be saved."
OSAS incorrectly identifies regeneration as "getting saved" past tense.
It mistakes the beginning for the end.

From a Moderator ...
We can reject God. Or shipwreck our faith as Paul warned.
The entire new testament is a warning against such.
Our free will continues AFTER SALVATION.
If God wanted robots, he coulda done so in the beginning.

From little old me ...
Eternal life is guaranteed, if you keep in the faith
... i.e. if you don't break the covenant, as in New Covenant.
Same as in the Old Covenant ...
God's "chosen people" broke their covenant with God,
thus disqualifying themselves from God's covenant promises.
Can you believe it? ... God scattered 99% of them all over the desert floor!
Paul warned us several times that this was an example for us to heed!
Many many dozens of warnings to the churches about falling away, etc.
You need to ask yourself WHY?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You need to ask yourself WHY?

From all the New Testament readings posted in this thread that oppose your point of view, it's clear to me that "once saved, always saved" is correct.

 

[Guest]

You need to ask yourself WHY?

From all the New Testament readings posted in this thread that oppose your point of view, it's clear to me that "once saved, always saved" is correct.

 

[francisdesales]

What you give or don't give credit to means nothing to me nor my Father. I didn't say 'you don't know the Father and I do'...stop posting falsehoods. Why are you jealous of those us who know the Father and that have a relationship with him through his Son Jesus?

What are you talking about "posting falsehoods"? Are you daft? Go read YOUR post from this thread, #13.


I know my Father and ye dishonor me when ye say that i do not, but i forgive thee and pray that one day ye shall know my Father also


You pray that some day that I know "your" Father. Which means I don't now.

Kid, get off your high horse and stop making such hypocritical comments about ME making false comments. Can't you even remember what you wrote?

If you can prove that OSAS is true, prove it with Scripture citations, not your own subjective experiences of God knows what...

A lot of people said "Lord, Lord" and Jesus never knew that person. Says a lot about self-promotion, doesn't it...

You know Jesus as you obey the commandments, not just because you said so. And when/if you stop obeying the commandments, you don't have Jesus. Simple as that. Thus, OSAS is false, despite your wishful thinking and your little smiley faces.

1 John 5:12

Scripture you say? John 6:37 "All that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." My salvation does not depend on me but on my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." I hear his voice francis.

Grappler, the scripture does not say "all who hear my voice are sheep"... it says the sheep hear the voice. I cited John 6:66. Some followed Jesus - and LEFT...

Now, only at the last judgment will we be able to tell whether that "baahh" from you is a sheep or a goat...

 

[dadof10]

Yes, I believe that is correct. SHOWING to people does not equal SHOWING to God or that people cannot SHOW something that’s false.

Whoa...Let's top right here. Remember we are talking about James 2. In your opinion, James says we can SHOW OUR TRUE FAITH by our actions. We are showing what we HAVE, what KIND of faith we have.

For example, there’s a member profile field on this Forum for people to select Christian (Yes/No). When they select Yes, it does not equal to God that they are indeed truly saved. But it does imply it to us members who have nothing else to go by in our determination of their salvation than that field.

In this parallel, the "member" above is the same as the "man" described in James 2:14

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?"

Basically, when we check the box, we are SAYING we are Christian.

God, however, knows each of our hearts and it's His dtermination to make, not ours.

Yes. I’d say that is correct. But “show†does not equal reality.

According to your interpretation of James, it does. Isn't James' whole point that when we perform good deeds we are PROVING WHAT KIND OF FAITH WE HAVE? What we are doing is not fooling others, we are showing our true faith (as opposed to "said" faith), we are showing what is inside of us, that God HAS JUSTIFIED US by His Grace.

I cannot really make this point any better/clearer than Peter does in 2 Peter 2 except to update his phrase proverb from the OT language using our modern invention of lipstick;

“You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig.†versus

What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.†(2 Peter 2:22 ESV)
​

or

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV) [implied answer=no]
​

I cannot say one way or the other about any individual person. Only God can say what is “True, saving faithâ€. But I can read Peter and James and Paul, etc.

Then what does James mean? What are we "showing"?

Now, have you ever known a person who fits the mold I've outlined above, then REVERTED to their former life? I submit it's, unfortunately, pretty common.

yes. I’m sure there are people for example that select Christian=Yes, but in fact they are not truly saved. Peter calls these type of people "false prophets", "dogs" and "pigs".

False prophets are people who make false prophecies, which is not who James is talking about.

The people who put "Yes" in their profile on these forums, are like the "man" who "says" he has faith. The people who perform good deeds, are the ones HE SAYS (according to you) are SHOWING THEIR TRUE FAITH. They are demonstrating the faith that is "saving faith". They are showing that they ARE JUSTIFIED.

You have said you have known people who do good deeds, and show their true faith, then revert to their former life. Is this what you meant to write? If so, then OSAS=No or "justified" in James doesn't mean "shown to be righteous".

 

[francisdesales]

This is about whether a person can remove themselves from the New Covenant, not arguing about what Christ has done.

If you think a born again Christian can 'remove themselves' from the blood of Christ that is permanently sealed into their veins, then you have underestimated God's omnipotence. Religion kills.

Urk i would have to agree with you on this one. Some people really do underestimate the power of God and put WAY too much emphasis on their own works.

ANOTHER false dilemna by Grappler.

I suppose you will now tell us that God is "underpowered" because all men are not saved, right??? That's where your logic goes - and why you so conveniently ignore that.

You try very hard to give us a false choice, either God does everything or man does. If man does anything, then God is not all powerful. It's a faulty argument.

 

[francisdesales]

Regards

Saying that OSAS is false is religion and is not based on love. Telling people that if they make mistakes or do something wrong, they will lose their salvation. That's religion talking. God loved us first before we loved him. Him loving us first is not religion. Love is love, and his love is permanent. Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. People act like this is bad news. Rather this is the good news that we preach to the world.

Love is based on sharing the Truth, not on maintaining "feel-good" politically correct ideas of relativism - "I'm right and you are right".

 

[dadof10]

How many times can i be born-again?

Once, at water baptism.

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3)

This is initial salvation and it is by Grace alone. Through sin, you can lose this salvation, which is NOT the same thing as becoming "un-born". Again, Jesus doesn't stretch the analogy to the point of being ridiculous.

 

[francisdesales]

Whoa...Let's top right here. Remember we are talking about James 2. In your opinion, James says we can SHOW OUR TRUE FAITH by our actions. We are showing what we HAVE, what KIND of faith we have.



In this parallel, the "member" above is the same as the "man" described in James 2:14

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?"

Basically, when we check the box, we are SAYING we are Christian.

According to your interpretation of James, it does. Isn't James' whole point that when we perform good deeds we are PROVING WHAT KIND OF FAITH WE HAVE? What we are doing is not fooling others, we are showing our true faith (as opposed to "said" faith), we are showing what is inside of us, that God HAS JUSTIFIED US by His Grace.

I cannot really make this point any better/clearer than Peter does in 2 Peter 2 except to update his phrase proverb from the OT language using our modern invention of lipstick;

“You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig.” versus

What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:22 ESV)
​

or

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV) [implied answer=no]
​

I cannot say one way or the other about any individual person. Only God can say what is “True, saving faith”. But I can read Peter and James and Paul, etc.

Then what does James mean? What are we "showing"?

Now, have you ever known a person who fits the mold I've outlined above, then REVERTED to their former life? I submit it's, unfortunately, pretty common.

yes. I’m sure there are people for example that select Christian=Yes, but in fact they are not truly saved. Peter calls these type of people "false prophets", "dogs" and "pigs".

False prophets are people who make false prophecies, which is not who James is talking about.

The people who put "Yes" in their profile on these forums, are like the "man" who "says" he has faith. The people who perform good deeds, are the ones HE SAYS (according to you) are SHOWING THEIR TRUE FAITH. They are demonstrating the faith that is "saving faith". They are showing that they ARE JUSTIFIED.

You have said you have known people who do good deeds, and show their true faith, then revert to their former life. Is this what you meant to write? If so, then OSAS=No or "justified" in James doesn't mean "shown to be righteous".

Don't forget that the "showing" is to GOD, not to man, in James 2. The example is of Abraham, and if one were to back track to Genesis, one will find that it is GOD Who states "now I know"... No other man was present when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac.

Thus, there is no "false showing" here in James 2 when speaking of salvific faith.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Don't forget that the "showing" is to GOD, not to man, in James 2. The example is of Abraham, and if one were to back track to Genesis, one will find that it is GOD Who states "now I know"... No other man was present when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac.

Thus, there is no "false showing" here in James 2 when speaking of salvific faith.

Regards

True, in some interpretations. I used the argument once that James couldn't be talking about "showing" because God already knows whether we are justified or not, so it would be redundant. He said that James meant "shown to people, not God" as a counter-argument. I think it's ridiculous (as do you) to interpret James as strictly "showing" to anyone, God or man. All I'm trying to do is stay on topic and anticipate where it MIGHT go. How does the above argument (OSAS=No or "justified" in James doesn't mean "shown to be righteous") seem to you, sound, or faulty? If you think it's sound, go ahead and critique it here, if it has holes, just PM me...

 

[Guest]

This is about whether a person can remove themselves from the New Covenant, not arguing about what Christ has done.

It's ALL about what Christ has done, and what he did on the cross for you. Questioning that is your first mistake.

 

[chessman]

In your opinion, James says we can SHOW OUR TRUE FAITH by our actions. We are showing what we HAVE, what KIND of faith we have.

I said:

But “show†does not equal reality.

That is blatantly absurd way to argue your point/evidence to misquote my opinion and what I’ve said. I pretty much know my opinion and what I said, thank you. And I’ve clearly stated it and the posts are there to review by anyone reading them.
You are using childish logic and you’re not fooling anyone here by this method that you so often use to argue your points.

HE SAYS (according to you) are SHOWING THEIR TRUE FAITH.

Wrong. I said

Only God can say what is “True, saving faithâ€.

A second clear misrepresentation of what I said.

You have said you have known people who do good deeds, and show their true faith,

Wrong again.

What I said was

SHOWING to people does not equal SHOWING to God or that people cannot SHOW something that’s false.

A third clear misrepresentation of what I did say.

Do you really think you’re doing a service to the Lord here? I don’t.

Another bad way to argue your point is to say the same false accusation over and over again until you begin to believe it’s true.

Isn’t misquoting someone a clear violation of the ToS here? And you’ve just done it at least three times in one post.

The only thing more absurd and illogical would be for you to now start calling me names.

 

[dadof10]

I said:
But “show†does not equal reality.

That is blatantly absurd way to argue your point/evidence to misquote my opinion and what I’ve said. I pretty much know my opinion and what I said, thank you. And I’ve clearly stated it and the posts are there to review by anyone reading them.
You are using childish logic and you’re not fooling anyone here by this method that you so often use to argue your points.

Take her down a notch, Chessman. Didn't you leave off a little bit of what "you said" above? Let's go to the video tape. From post #58

I asked: So, as I said, James 2 is talking about SHOWING (or indicating or proving or displaying) a person's true, saving faith, correct?

You answered:Yes, I believe that is correct. SHOWING to people does not equal SHOWING to God or that people cannot SHOW something that’s false.

I asked: This means that logically it's possible for a person to show, to all humans he comes in contact with, that he is saved/justified, correct?

You "said": Yes. I’d say that is correct. But “show†does not equal reality.

You have agreed with BOTH of my contentions, that James 2 is talking about "showing true faith", and that it's possible to show to people that he is saved. You then go on, in the same sentence, to say but we really don't know if the "true saving faith", which was shown or displayed or proved, is true saving faith. This is what I'm reacting to. The statements are inconsistent.

Wrong. I said

Only God can say what is “True, saving faithâ€.

A second clear misrepresentation of what I said.

Then why did you agree with the statement "This means that logically it's possible for a person to show, to all humans he comes in contact with, that he is saved/justified, correct?"

If you made a mistake and didn't mean to agree, simply say so. There is no need to escalate a misunderstanding into a personal attack.

You have said you have known people who do good deeds, and show their true faith,

Wrong again.

What I said was

SHOWING to people does not equal SHOWING to God or that people cannot SHOW something that’s false.

A third clear misrepresentation of what I did say.

I asked: Now, have you ever known a person who fits the mold I've outlined above, then REVERTED to their former life? I submit it's, unfortunately, pretty common.

You answered:yes. I’m sure there are people for example that select Christian=Yes, but in fact they are not truly saved.

Then, just to be sure, in my last post to you, I wrote: Is this what you meant to write? If so, then OSAS=No or "justified" in James doesn't mean "shown to be righteous".

Again, it seemed inconsistent, so I was asking for clarification.

Do you really think you’re doing a service to the Lord here? I don’t.

Another bad way to argue your point is to say the same false accusation over and over again until you begin to believe it’s true.

Isn’t misquoting someone a clear violation of the ToS here? And you’ve just done it at least three times in one post.

No, it's not. Neither is misquoting yourself, as you did above.

The only thing more absurd and illogical would be for you to now start calling me names.

:biglol Where did that come from?

I asked you a question in my last post, that was lost in all the accusations.

You said: "Only God can say what is “True, saving faithâ€.

I asked: Then what does James mean? What are we "showing"?

Maybe it's best to take a step back and clarify your exact take on James 2 and justification. In James 2..

1) Does justification mean "shown to be righteous"?
2) Do "good deeds" show a true faith as opposed to a "said" or dead faith?
3) Is this true faith demonstrated to God or man or both?

That's enough for now.

 

[Grappler]

John 6:37 "All that the Father has given me will come to me
and whoever comes to me i will never cast out."
My salvation does not depend on me but on my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." I hear his voice

From an Administrator ...
OSAS fails at about OS - Once Saved.
The Biblical model of salvation involves repentance & regeneration,
and then the believer enters a state of salvation,
and those who persevere "to the end, shall be saved."
OSAS incorrectly identifies regeneration as "getting saved" past tense.
It mistakes the beginning for the end.

From a Moderator ...
We can reject God. Or shipwreck our faith as Paul warned.
The entire new testament is a warning against such.
Our free will continues AFTER SALVATION.
If God wanted robots, he coulda done so in the beginning.

From little old me ...
Eternal life is guaranteed, if you keep in the faith
... i.e. if you don't break the covenant, as in New Covenant.
Same as in the Old Covenant ...
God's "chosen people" broke their covenant with God,
thus disqualifying themselves from God's covenant promises.
Can you believe it? ... God scattered 99% of them all over the desert floor!
Paul warned us several times that this was an example for us to heed!
Many many dozens of warnings to the churches about falling away, etc.
You need to ask yourself WHY?

I disagree. You just don't want to accept John 6:37 do you? "ALL that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." This one little verse kills your arguement.

 

[Grappler]

What you give or don't give credit to means nothing to me nor my Father. I didn't say 'you don't know the Father and I do'...stop posting falsehoods. Why are you jealous of those us who know the Father and that have a relationship with him through his Son Jesus?

What are you talking about "posting falsehoods"? Are you daft? Go read YOUR post from this thread, #13.


I know my Father and ye dishonor me when ye say that i do not, but i forgive thee and pray that one day ye shall know my Father also


You pray that some day that I know "your" Father. Which means I don't now.

Kid, get off your high horse and stop making such hypocritical comments about ME making false comments. Can't you even remember what you wrote?

If you can prove that OSAS is true, prove it with Scripture citations, not your own subjective experiences of God knows what...

A lot of people said "Lord, Lord" and Jesus never knew that person. Says a lot about self-promotion, doesn't it...

You know Jesus as you obey the commandments, not just because you said so. And when/if you stop obeying the commandments, you don't have Jesus. Simple as that. Thus, OSAS is false, despite your wishful thinking and your little smiley faces.

1 John 5:12

Scripture you say? John 6:37 "All that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." My salvation does not depend on me but on my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." I hear his voice francis.

Grappler, the scripture does not say "all who hear my voice are sheep"... it says the sheep hear the voice. I cited John 6:66. Some followed Jesus - and LEFT...

Now, only at the last judgment will we be able to tell whether that "baahh" from you is a sheep or a goat...

Yes i know...i paraphrased it. I hear Jesus' voice and i follow him...that makes me a sheep....baaa....baaa. Oh and he also said he would never cast me out because i came to him because the Father gave me to him. I paraphrased that as well....hope you don't mind. I was wondering if you are nervous? You know....since you are waiting until the last judgment in order to find out if you are a sheep or a goat?

 

[Grappler]

How many times can i be born-again?

Once, at water baptism.

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3)

This is initial salvation and it is by Grace alone. Through sin, you can lose this salvation, which is NOT the same thing as becoming "un-born". Again, Jesus doesn't stretch the analogy to the point of being ridiculous.

You are wrong about water baptisim but that is another discussion....hey...that would be good topic for you to start. I do agree with you that one can only be born-again once though. The difference is i believe that once you are born-again you stay that way and you do not. My question now would be if i can lose my salvation through sin just how much sin does it take for God to say 'ok grappler...no salvation for you anymore'? Could you answer that so that i know just how much sin i can commit? Also if I do get my salvation taken from me as you say is possible....can i get it back?? Remember you said that one can only be born-again one time so it seems if i lose my salvation then it is over....no repentance...is that how it works?