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My take on Trinity

TonyChanYT

Member
Disclaimer: I am not against people using the term Trinity.

Isaiah 9:

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Do these titles refer to the same person?

The term person is loaded with anthropomorphism. I prefer to stick to the wording of the Scripture and use the term witness instead.

See

The word "Trinity" is not written in the Bible. I'd avoid using the term. I try to stick to the words and wording of the Bible as much as possible. The term was first used by Tertullian around 200 AD. I am not against the concept of the Trinity. I am not even against the word "Trinity". My point is that I prefer not to use the term Trinity in argumentation.

On the other hand, Berean Literal Bible, Acts 17:

29 Therefore, being offspring of God, we ought not to consider the Divine Being [Θεῖον, Theion, G2304] to be like to gold or to silver or to stone, a graven thing of man's craft and imagination.
KJB translated Θεῖον as "Godhead"; NKJB used "Divine Nature".

The term Trinity is loaded and not in the Bible. The term Divine Being (G2304) is in the Bible. I would use that instead of Trinity.

See also Is "elohim" singular or plural?.
 
Isaiah 9:6 (part 1)

Isaiah 9:6
(From my personal studies)

Many (but not all) trinitarians will tell you that Is. 9:6 proves that Jesus is God.

Is. 9:6 says –

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” - NASB.

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words “Mighty God, Eternal Father,” then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father”

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah all right but in a subordinate sense. In other words, Christ is “a mighty god” in the same sense that God’s angels were called “gods” and the judges of Israel were called “gods” by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), and Moses was called “a god” by Jehovah himself. This is the interpretation of Is. 9:6 by the WT Society at this time (1986).

Yes, men and angels were called gods (elohim - Hebrew; theos - Greek) in a proper, but subordinate, sense by Jehovah and his inspired Bible writers (see the DEF and BOWGOD studies). Although they were given this elevated title in a proper sense (not false gods), it was obviously with the clear understanding that it in no way implied a comparison with the Most High, Only True God. (A bank employee calling his boss, the head of the bank, “the president” would certainly not imply an equality of position, power, etc. with “The President” [of the USA].)

The word “god” as understood by those who used that term simply meant a “mighty one” - see Young’s Concordance. In fact the word “Mighty” as found at Is. 9:6 (Gibbor in the original Hebrew) is also applied to the angels at Ps. 103:20 (see a modern concordance such as the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible).

It is interesting that the ancient translation of the Old Testament that Jesus frequently quoted, the Septuagint Version, renders Is. 9:6: “and his [the Messiah’s] name is called the Angel [ἄγγελος, messenger] of Great Counsel.” (And a footnote in Zondervan’s Edition adds that the Alexandrine text renders it, “Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come.”) The very early (ca. 160 A.D.) Christian Justin Martyr quoted Is. 9:6 also as “The Angel of mighty counsel” - “Dialogue With Trypho,” ch. LXXVI.

So, just as “Lord” was applied to anyone in authority: angels, masters over servants, husbands, etc., so, too, could “god” be applied to anyone (good or bad) who was considered a “mighty one.” Of course only one person could be called the “Most High God,” or the “Only True God,” or the “Almighty God”!

In the same way, “Eternal Father” could mean that the Messiah is one who has been given eternal life and through him God has brought eternal life to many others. (We might make the comparison that the Heavenly Father has brought men to life in this world through their earthly fathers.) This would be intended in a clearly subordinate sense and not to take anything away from the ultimate honor, glory, worship, etc. due the Most High God and Father in heaven - Jehovah.

At any rate, even most trinitarians do not confuse the two separate persons of the Father and the Son. They do not say the Son is the Father. They say the Father and the Son are two separate individual persons who are equally “God”!

Therefore, since we obviously cannot take “Eternal Father” in the literal sense to mean that Jesus is the Father, we cannot take the rest of that same name (esp. ‘Mighty God’) in its literal highest sense and say that Jesus is Mighty God, etc., either.

In addition to the distinct possibility of the use of the secondary subordinate meanings of the titles such as “God/god” as explained by Bible language scholars (see the BOWGOD study), we can see by the actual renderings of some trinitarian Bible translators at Is. 9:6 that they believe such subordinate meanings were intended by the inspired Bible writer.

Instead of “Mighty God,” Dr. James Moffatt translated this part of Is. 9:6 as “a divine hero;” Byington has “Divine Champion;” The New English Bible has “In Battle Godlike;” The Catholic New American Bible (1970 and 1991 revision) renders it “God-Hero;” and the REB says “Mighty Hero.” Even that most-respected of Biblical Hebrew language experts, Gesenius, translated it “mighty hero” - p. 45, Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon.

Also, The NIV Study Bible, in a f.n. for Ps 45:6, tells us:

“In this psalm, which praises the king and especially extols his ‘splendor and majesty’ (v. 3), it is not unthinkable that he was called ‘god’ as a title of honor [cf. Isa 9:6].” (Bracketed information included in original footnote.)

In addition, Rotherham has rendered “Eternal Father” as “father of progress,” and the New English Bible translates it: “father of a wide realm.”

The above-mentioned Bible translations by trinitarian scholars which apply the words in the name at Is. 9:6 in a subordinate sense directly to Jesus clearly show that they do not believe this scripture implies an equality with Jehovah the Father.

But, some may ask, if ‘a mighty god’ were intended in this name, why is “God” given a capital ‘G’ in most translations of this name?

The answer is that in English translations of names we often find the major words within a name (or title) are capitalized. This is similar to the way book titles, names of buildings, ships, etc. are written in English. ‘The Lord of the Rings,’ ‘The World Trade Center,’ ‘The Empire State Building,’ ‘Allure of the Seas’ (cruise ship), etc., are modern examples.
 
Isaiah 9:6 (part two)

And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name at Is. 9:6 is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen above) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best-known Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his King” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.

This is why another name the Messiah is to be called by at Jer. 23:6 is rendered, `The LORD [YHWH] IS Our Righteousness' in the following Bibles: RSV; NRSV; NEB; NJB; ESV; JPS (Margolis, ed.); Tanakh; Byington; AT; CEB; GW; LEB; NLT; The Voice; and ASV (footnote). Of course other translations render it more literally by calling the Messiah "The LORD [YHWH] Our Righteousness" to help support a `Jesus is God' doctrine. Some of these (such as the NASB, NRSV, RSV, ESV, AT, and NEB) actually render the very same name at Jer. 33:16 as "The LORD [or Jehovah] is Our Righteousness"!

(Unfortunately for "Jesus is Jehovah" advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.)

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3

Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - -They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [1]“quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [1]“For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a few trinitarian scholars who dare to say it, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.
 
Disclaimer: I am not against people using the term Trinity.

Isaiah 9:


Do these titles refer to the same person?

The term person is loaded with anthropomorphism. I prefer to stick to the wording of the Scripture and use the term witness instead.

See

The word "Trinity" is not written in the Bible. I'd avoid using the term. I try to stick to the words and wording of the Bible as much as possible. The term was first used by Tertullian around 200 AD. I am not against the concept of the Trinity. I am not even against the word "Trinity". My point is that I prefer not to use the term Trinity in argumentation.

On the other hand, Berean Literal Bible, Acts 17:


KJB translated Θεῖον as "Godhead"; NKJB used "Divine Nature".

The term Trinity is loaded and not in the Bible. The term Divine Being (G2304) is in the Bible. I would use that instead of Trinity.

See also Is "elohim" singular or plural?.
You and JLB will get along very well.
He agrees with you.
 
A lot of words going round and round.
GOD the Father said, " This is My Beloved Son. "
That is two elements of the trinity.
Jesus said he would send the Spirit to us, that makes three elements of the trinity.


Whether one uses the word or not is irrelevant, God is three in one.
 
God is three in one.

The scripture says these three are one.


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7





JLB
 
You and JLB will get along very well.
He agrees with you.

I may agree with some of his points, mainly because the word Trinity is not a biblical term in which those who deny the divinity of Christ claim that Trinity is not a biblical term.


So to cut out that argument is use Godhead and Elohim.
 
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name at Is. 9:6 is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen above) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Jehovah is a man made name and Is not the name of the LORD.


YHWH is the Hebrew.

The scriptures teach us that Jesus is the Name of the LORD.




JLB
 
We do not worship three God's, we worship one triune God.
Theology sometimes has to be worked out from isolated passages without co tradicting itself.
It is clear that there is God the Father,
That there is a God the Son,
And that there is a God the Spirit.
Three distinct individuals, yet God is One.
 
The scriptures teach us that Jesus is the Name of the LORD.
That is a Oneness and Modalism teaching, not a Trinitarian one. However, to say that "Jesus is the Name of the LORD" actually makes no sense, because it confuses a name for a title. "LORD," as you know, is the English replacement for YHWH. But God's name is YHWH; it is not a title. What you have said is the equivalent of saying that Jesus is the name of God's name.

Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. (ESV)

The issue is better seen in the LEB:

Exo 3:15 And God said again to Moses, "So you must say to the Israelites, 'Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.' (LEB)

Jesus is the name of the Son only, not the Trinity.
 
Last edited:
The scripture says these three are one.


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7





JLB
There is no and or KAI between the Father and the Word. Are you sure that you have read it correctly?
 
There is no and or KAI between the Father and the Word. Are you sure that you have read it correctly?
.................................
Even most trinitarian scholars admit that 1 John 5:7 (as found in the KJV) is a late addition to text and not in any early NT Greek manuscript.

There is no way that Jesus would pray at Jn 17:22 that Christians may be one "just as we (Jesus and the Father) are one" if he were truly God. In that case he would be praying that these Christians become "equally God" with him and the Father!

But even more important is the fact that John did not write the words found at 1 Jn 5:7 in the KJV! And we must consider why trinitarian scholars and copyists felt compelled to add it to the Holy Scriptures.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-john-57-kjv.html
 
However, to say that "Jesus is the Name of the LORD" actually makes no sense

This is sad you don’t believe Jesus is the name of the LORD.

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13


What is the name of the LORD that we call on to be saved?


Here is a hint:

let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10-12





JLB
 
There is no and or KAI between the Father and the Word. Are you sure that you have read it correctly?

Yes, I read the verse correctly.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7


These three settles it...



JLB
 
This is sad you don’t believe Jesus is the name of the LORD.
Not really, since I reject Oneness and Modalism theology as unbiblical.

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13
Yes, "whoever calls on the name of YHWH shall be saved." That is a quote from Joel 2:32. Again, you're conflating a name with a title.

What is the name of the LORD that we call on to be saved?


Here is a hint:

let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10-12
Exactly. Paul's point is that to call on the name of Jesus is to call on the name of YHWH. But it would be incorrect to say that Jesus is the name of YHWH. Again, that is the same as saying "Jesus is the name of the name of God." Jesus is YHWH but YHWH isn't Jesus.
 
Not really, since I reject Oneness and Modalism theology as unbiblical.

I am neither.

Your labels are offensive.

If you dont believe Jesus is the name of the LORD, then that is your choice.

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13

What is the name of the LORD that you call on to be saved?
 
; Yes, "whoever calls on the name of YHWH shall be saved." That is a quote from Joel 2:32. Again, you're conflating a name with a title.

Clearly Paul understands that Jesus is the name of the LORD; YHWH the LORD God.

By quoting Joel, Paul reveals that Jesus is the LORD of the Old Testament.

Your denial of the plain and clear truth of the scriptures is evident.

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13





JLB




JLB
 
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