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My take on Trinity

I am neither.

Your labels are offensive.
I never said you were and I didn't label you. The belief, however, that the name of Jesus is the name of YHWH--apart from being nonsensical as I pointed out--is straight out of Jesus Only/Oneness theology, which at root is Modalsim.

If you dont believe Jesus is the name of the LORD, then that is your choice.
I don't believe it because it's not biblical. If the name of the LORD (God) is Jesus, then Trinitarianism is false and Jesus is the only person that is God. And, again, to say "Jesus is the name of the name of Yahweh," makes no sense. It is to conflate a title (Lord) with a name (in Hebrew, YHWH; in English, "the LORD").

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13

What is the name of the LORD that you call on to be saved?
Joe 2:32a And it will happen—everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be rescued, (LEB)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
...
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (ESV)

As a quote from Joel 2:32, Paul is saying that to call on the name of Jesus is to call on the name of Yahweh. He can say that because Jesus is Yahweh (the LORD); he is God. But God is triune, so God is not Jesus. It stands to reason then that Jesus cannot be the name of God, or Jesus would also be the name of the Holy Spirit and the Father. Not to mention that the NT makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is the name of the Son, the God-man, only.

Clearly Paul understands that Jesus is the name of the LORD; YHWH the LORD God.
Clearly Paul does not or we would then have to conclude that Paul doesn't believe that either the Father or the Holy Spirit are God.

By quoting Joel, Paul reveals that Jesus is the LORD of the Old Testament.
Paul is showing that Jesus is deity, that he is God, but nowhere does Paul say that Jesus is all of God. Again, that would be Oneness theology.

Your denial of the plain and clear truth of the scriptures is evident.
There are some nuances that you seem to be missing in these passages.

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13
Which I completely agree with.
 
Yes, I read the verse correctly.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7


These three settles it...



JLB
τι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ,? ὁ λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα·
There is no punctuation in scripta continua.
 
I don't believe it because it's not biblical.

IF you don’t believe Jesus is the name of the LORD then that is your choice.


What is the name of your Lord?



JLB
 
τι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ,? ὁ λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα·
There is no punctuation in scripta continua.

The scripture says these three are one.


Three is clear.


No punctuation needed to understand three.
 
Joe 2:32a And it will happen—everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be rescued, (LEB)

YAHWEH is not the Hebrew.

YHWH is the Hebrew.

Paul refers to Joel 2 in his teaching to the Romans, and directly refers to the name of YHWH (LORD) as Jesus; the only name by which men are saved.


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:13




JLB
 
IF you don’t believe Jesus is the name of the LORD then that is your choice.
It’s biblical. Again, you’re conflating a title with a name.

What is the name of your Lord?
Jesus, although, the Father is also called Lord (Matt 7:25, for instance) and LORD [YHWH] in the OT is the name of the triune God.

Paul refers to Joel 2 in his teaching to the Romans, and directly refers to the name of YHWH (LORD) as Jesus; the only name by which men are saved.


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:13
I’ve explained this already. He is not saying “the name of YHWH is Jesus.” That creates a significant problem—YHWH is the name of the triune God, so you’re saying that Jesus is the name of the name of God, which is nonsensical.
 
The scripture says these three are one.


Three is clear.


No punctuation needed to understand three.
Except you’re saying there is only one by promoting Oneness theology.
 
Hey All,
The Trinity (three distinct personalities all called God) showed up in the first three chapters of Genesis. Take a look.

Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Verses 1-2 show God the creator, and the Spirit of God. In two verses Moses distinguishes two separate personalities of God. (By the way, the Hebrew word used for God is plural; "elohim." {I am going on memory here so sorry if I misspelled that.})

In chapter 3 God appears to Adam and Eve in a physical body. It says the voice of God, but voices don't walk. Neither do Spiritual beings. That rules out the God the father. We know He is Spirit. It also rules out God the Holy Spirit. Spirit is part of His name. So who is left? (In my best Dana Carvy church lady impression: "Well now, who could it be? Who, who, who indeed. Could it be Jesus?")

If the concept is provable, then the term is useable. The church saw the solar system as geocentric--earth was the center of the solar system.

Nicolaus Copernicus came along in 1543, and introduced a heliocentric view of the solar system. The Sun, rather than the Earth, was at the center of the solar system. This view was provable. Heliocentric is now the term used to describe our solar system.

Similarly, Trinity is the term to describe what Scripture teaches about the three separate and distinct personalities of the one God. Good discussion people. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
No punctuation needed. Father and Word are the same.
They are both God in substance, but they are different “persons.” The eternally preexistent Word became flesh in the person of Jesus; the Father did not. John 1:1 makes it clear that they are not the same.
 
Disclaimer: I am not against people using the term Trinity.

Isaiah 9:


Do these titles refer to the same person?

The term person is loaded with anthropomorphism. I prefer to stick to the wording of the Scripture and use the term witness instead.

See

The word "Trinity" is not written in the Bible. I'd avoid using the term. I try to stick to the words and wording of the Bible as much as possible. The term was first used by Tertullian around 200 AD. I am not against the concept of the Trinity. I am not even against the word "Trinity". My point is that I prefer not to use the term Trinity in argumentation.

On the other hand, Berean Literal Bible, Acts 17:


KJB translated Θεῖον as "Godhead"; NKJB used "Divine Nature".

The term Trinity is loaded and not in the Bible. The term Divine Being (G2304) is in the Bible. I would use that instead of Trinity.

See also Is "elohim" singular or plural?.
Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.
Bullinger.

Elohim is Plural.
J.
 
IF you don’t believe Jesus is the name of the LORD then that is your choice.


What is the name of your Lord?



JLB
Many Bibles falsely translate God's personal name (YHWH) as "LORD" (all caps). This includes the KJV (except Ps. 83:18 for some reason). When these Bibles actually intend the meaning of "Lord" (single cap), they translate it that way.

My God is YHWH (Yahweh, or Jehovah in Ps. 83:18, KJV, ASV, and others). The title "Lord" may be honestly applied to God, Jesus, and others in authority (even including husbands by wives).
 
My God is YHWH (Yahweh, or Jehovah in Ps. 83:18, KJV, ASV, and others). The title "Lord" may be honestly applied to God, Jesus, and others in authority (even including husbands by wives).
The Names of God
I have often heard Christian sources refer to the Judeo-Christian God as "the nameless God" to contrast our God with the ancient pagan gods. I always found this odd, because Judaism clearly recognizes the existence of a Name for God; in fact, we have many Names for God.

The most important of God's Names is the four-letter Name represented by the Hebrew letters Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh (YHVH). It is often referred to as the Ineffable Name, the Unutterable Name or the Distinctive Name. Linguistically, it is related to the Hebrew root Heh-Yod-Heh (to be), and reflects the fact that God's existence is eternal.

In scripture, this Name is used when discussing God's relation with human beings, and when emphasizing his qualities of lovingkindness and mercy. It is frequently shortened to Yah (Yod-Heh), Yahu or Yeho (Yod-Heh-Vav), especially when used in combination with names or phrases, as in Yehoshua (Joshua, meaning "the Lord is my Salvation"), Eliyahu (Elijah, meaning "my God is the Lord"), and Halleluyah ("praise the Lord").

The first Name used for God in scripture is Elohim. In form, the word is a masculine plural of a word that looks feminine in the singular (Eloha).

The same word (or, according to Maimonides, a homonym of it) is used to refer to princes, judges, other gods, and other powerful beings. This Name is used in scripture when emphasizing God's might, His creative power, and his attributes of justice and rulership. Variations on this name include El, Eloha, Elohai (my God) and Elohaynu (our God).

God is also known as El Shaddai. This Name is usually translated as "God Almighty," however, the derivation of the word "Shaddai" is not known. According to some views, it is derived from the root meaning "to heap benefits." According a Midrash, it means, "The One who said 'dai'" ("dai" meaning enough or sufficient) and comes from the fact that when God created the universe, it expanded until He said "DAI!" (perhaps the first recorded theory of an expanding universe?). The name Shaddai is the one written on the mezuzah scroll. Some note that Shaddai is an acronym of Shomer Daltot Yisrael, Guardian of the Doors of Israel.

Another significant Name of God is YHVH Tzva'ot. This Name is normally translated as "Lord of Hosts." The word "tzva'ot" means "hosts" in the sense of a military grouping or an organized array. The Name refers to God's leadership and sovereignty. Interestingly, this Name is rarely used in scripture. It never appears in the Torah(i.e., the first five books). It appears primarily in the prophetic books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi, as well as many times in the Psalms.

Writing the Name of God
Jews do not casually write any Name of God. This practice does not come from the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a prohibition against swearing by God's Name falsely or frivolously (the word normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood").

Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better.

The commandment not to erase or deface the name of God comes from Deut. 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our God. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of God.

It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form, and recent rabbinical decisions have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God on web sites like this one or in BBS messages: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it.

Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Heh (10-5), is normally written as Tet-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Heh is a Name. See Hebrew Alphabet for more information about using letters as numerals.

Pronouncing the Name of God
Nothing in the Torah prohibits a person from pronouncing the Name of God. Indeed, it is evident from scripture that God's Name was pronounced routinely. Many common Hebrew names contain "Yah" or "Yahu," part of God's four-letter Name. The Name was pronounced as part of daily services in the Temple.

The Mishnah confirms that there was no prohibition against pronouncing The Name in ancient times. In fact, the Mishnah recommends using God's Name as a routine greeting to a fellow Jew. Berakhot 9:5. However, by the time of the Talmud, it was the custom to use substitute Names for God. Some rabbis asserted that a person who pronounces YHVH according to its letters (instead of using a substitute) has no place in the World to Come, and should be put to death. Instead of pronouncing the four-letter Name, we usually substitute the Name "Adonai," or simply say "Ha-Shem" (lit. The Name).

Although the prohibition on pronunciation applies only to the four-letter Name, Jews customarily do not pronounce any of God's many Names except in prayer or study. The usual practice is to substitute letters or syllables, so that Adonai becomes Adoshem or Ha-Shem, Elohaynu and Elohim become Elokaynu and Elokim, etc.

With the Temple destroyed and the prohibition on pronouncing The Name outside of the Temple, pronunciation of the Name fell into disuse. Scholars passed down knowledge of the correct pronunciation of YHVH for many generations, but eventually the correct pronunciation was lost, and we no longer know it with any certainty. We do not know what vowels were used, or even whether the Vav in the Name was a vowel or a consonant. See Hebrew Alphabet for more information about the difficulties in pronouncing Hebrew. Some religious scholars suggest that the Name was pronounced "Yahweh," but others do not find this pronunciation particularly persuasive.

Some Christian scholars render the four-letter Name as "Jehovah," but this pronunciation is particularly unlikely. The word "Jehovah" comes from the fact that ancient Jewish texts used to put the vowels of the Name "Adonai" (the usual substitute for YHVH) under the consonants of YHVH to remind people not to pronounce YHVH as written. A sixteenth century German Christian scribe, while transliterating the Bible into Latin for the Pope, wrote the Name out as it appeared in his texts, with the consonants of YHVH and the vowels of Adonai, and came up with the word JeHoVaH, and the name stuck.

Just a thought.
J.
 
Many Bibles falsely translate God's personal name (YHWH) as "LORD" (all caps). This includes the KJV (except Ps. 83:18 for some reason). When these Bibles actually intend the meaning of "Lord" (single cap), they translate it that way.

My God is YHWH (Yahweh, or Jehovah in Ps. 83:18, KJV, ASV, and others). The title "Lord" may be honestly applied to God, Jesus, and others in authority (even including husbands by wives).
Except that it isn't falsely translated as "LORD." The Septuagint uses the Greek kurios, "Lord," in place of YHWH. The NT writers also used kurios to translate YHWH in passages they quoted from the OT.
 
Except that it isn't falsely translated as "LORD." The Septuagint uses the Greek kurios, "Lord," in place of YHWH. The NT writers also used kurios to translate YHWH in passages they quoted from the OT.
The day on which the Pharisees succeeded in abrogating the ancient Sadducean custom of having the Sacred Name written in public documents was celebrated as a great day of thanksgiving (explained correctly by Dalman, against R. H. 18b; compare with Yadayim, iv. 8, "Wo upon you, ye Sadducees, who write the name of the temporary ruler alongside of the Sacred Name!").

No wonder, then, that the Greek translators of the Bible, even though some scribe might now and then write the Tetragrammaton in the archaic Hebrew form on the margin, Π I Π I, as found by Origen (see facsimile attached to article Aquila), took great care to render the name Π I Π I regularly Κυριός, Lord, as if they knew of no other reading but Adonai.

Translations dependent upon the Septuagint have the same reading of the Name.


Not from "superstitious fear" or misapplication of the third command of the Decalogue or of Lev. xxiv. 11, but from a reverential feeling that the Name ought not to be pronounced except with consecrated lips and to consecrated ears, the substitute "Lord" came into use.

Yet this simple measure, introduced to guard the Name against profane use, formed one of the most powerful means of securing to the Biblical God the universal character with which He is invested as the Lord of Hosts and the Ruler of men and nations. YHWH, as the God of Israel, might still be taken as a tribal God; The Lord is no longer the God of one people; He is Lord of all the world, the Only One. Compare Name of God, Shem ha-Meforash, and Tetragrammaton.

Just to corroborate.
J.
 
They are both God in substance, but they are different “persons.” The eternally preexistent Word became flesh in the person of Jesus; the Father did not. John 1:1 makes it clear that they are not the same.
They are not different persons in 1st John 5:7. There is no KAI separating PATHR and LOGOS. John actually makes it clear that the word was the Father i.e. God.
 
Except that it isn't falsely translated as "LORD." The Septuagint uses the Greek kurios, "Lord," in place of YHWH. The NT writers also used kurios to translate YHWH in passages they quoted from the OT.
It is falsely translated because not every LXX uses the term KURIOS, but some use the tetragrammaton instead.
 
They are not different persons in 1st John 5:7. There is no KAI separating PATHR and LOGOS.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning [of the ages] was [already pre-existent] the Word [Christ], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Gen_1:1)

Joh 1:1 The Beginning
In [the]G1722 Prep En Ἐν N1 beginningG746 N-DFS archē ἀρχῇ wasG1510 V-IIA-3S ēn ἦν theG3588 Art-NMS ho ὁ Word,G3056 N-NMS Logos, Λόγος, andG2532 Conj kai καὶ theG3588 Art-NMS ho ὁ WordG3056 N-NMS Logos Λόγος wasG1510 V-IIA-3S ēn ἦν withG4314 Prep pros πρὸς -G3588 Art-AMS ton τὸν God,G2316 N-AMS Theon, Θεόν, andG2532 Conj kai καὶ GodG2316 N-NMS Theos Θεὸς wasG1510 V-IIA-3S ēn ἦν theG3588 Art-NMS ho ὁ Word.G3056 N-NMS Logos. Λόγος.

Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank God for opening the the eyes of our understanding being enlightened-

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,-

J.
 
They are not different persons in 1st John 5:7. There is no KAI separating PATHR and LOGOS. John actually makes it clear that the word was the Father i.e. God.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father [God], the Word [Jesus], and the Holy Spririt: and these three are one.

This reference?
 
They are not different persons in 1st John 5:7. There is no KAI separating PATHR and LOGOS. John actually makes it clear that the word was the Father i.e. God.
I never said anything about 1 John 5:7. That verse most likely wasn't written by John and is a late addition. John was very specific in John 1:1 to make it clear that "the Word was with God," yet also "was God." It makes no sense to say "the Word was with himself," especially when pros ("with") speaks of intimate communion and relationship. The only logical conclusion is that there are at least two distinct "persons" being spoke of.

It is falsely translated because not every LXX uses the term KURIOS, but some use the tetragrammaton instead.
The fact that the NT writers used kurios in place of YHWH when quoting the OT alone shows that LORD is a legitimate replacement for YHWH. You say "not every LXX uses the term KURIOS," so YHWH is falsely translated as LORD. But your statement agrees that at least some LXX do, in fact, translate YHWH as LORD. So, on what basis do you say that LORD is a false translation?
 
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