My Warped View

[TyCowboy]

I'm late to jumping into the fray, and I'll admit that my own personal stance is that our salvation is a free gift, but it obligates us to a life spent in His will, which involves work, giving, charity, etc...but only those done out of His will, and for the right motives. I'll also go so far as to admit that I'm not nearly as schooled in apologetics and the like as many of my brothers and sisters here.

That said, I think that the example of the American educational system as a basis of comparison to the free gift of salvation is a flawed comparison from a logical point of view on a couple of levels. The chief one that I see is that the gift of grace is an quantitative either/or logical proposition. Either you are saved, or you're not. Education is a subjective and rather qualitative in nature. One can be educated, but not the level of another. I have Bachelors degree in Business and will have an MBA soon. That doesn't mean that I am nearly as well educated in matters of health or science as someone with a lifetime of experience but no formal education. Education is subjective, while salvation is not.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but the acceptance of a gift of grace (something by definition unearned and undeserved) can have the consequence (perhaps a poor word choice) of requiring action to be in the will of God. God has often used Christians to act as his hands and feet...as the body of the church should be...however, I question the ability of deathbed (thief on the cross) conversion/confession and acceptance, if any sort of public work were required for salvation. We can argue the concept of heavenly crowns or rewards being stored up in heaven all day, but the fundamental issue (and perhaps I'm missing your point) of salvation to the best of my understanding of the Word is a matter of faith in Jesus, and in Him alone.

Ty.

 

[unred typo]

quote by TyCowboy on Tue Nov 27, 2007:
I'm late to jumping into the fray, and I'll admit that my own personal stance is that our salvation is a free gift, but it obligates us to a life spent in His will, which involves work, giving, charity, etc...but only those done out of His will, and for the right motives. I'll also go so far as to admit that I'm not nearly as schooled in apologetics and the like as many of my brothers and sisters here.

Welcome to the thread. I am not schooled in apologetics at all unless you count the school of hard knocks so don’t feel bad. Anyone with at least half a brain and pretty thick skin is welcome here, even someone with less brain as long as they have an opinion they aren’t afraid to defend. We don’t bite. Much. :-D

quote by TyCowboy:
That said, I think that the example of the American educational system as a basis of comparison to the free gift of salvation is a flawed comparison from a logical point of view on a couple of levels. The chief one that I see is that the gift of grace is an quantitative either/or logical proposition. Either you are saved, or you're not. Education is a subjective and rather qualitative in nature. One can be educated, but not the level of another. I have Bachelors degree in Business and will have an MBA soon. That doesn't mean that I am nearly as well educated in matters of health or science as someone with a lifetime of experience but no formal education. Education is subjective, while salvation is not.

Naturally, I have to disagree. The comparison works OK, because there is a point at which we graduate in the free school system. Either we get our diploma or not. At the end of our trials and testing of this life, we are judged by our works and either we are saved or not, and also by degrees, (some tenfold, some hundredfold.) The point is, the education is a complete package offered freely to every child for the taking, but also for the working out. Not only must it be worked out, but without the child applying himself to the task, it only benefits him to the degree that he puts forth the effort.

You have taken the education example to another level by going beyond the free education of my illustration anyway, but I see what you mean. Let me turn it back to you. Can a child who has not learned to read, or write, or do arithmetic, graduate? Would they be considered an educated person? Now, in salvation, can a person who does not apply himself to the teaching of Christ, and learn how to love and forgive, be merciful, humble and righteous, be counted worthy of eternal life? If we do not submit ourselves to the leadership of Christ, we have not attained the salvation that has been freely offered to us, any more than the child who has not submitted himself to the teaching of the education system, be educated by that system.

quote by TyCowboy:
Perhaps I'm wrong, but the acceptance of a gift of grace (something by definition unearned and undeserved) can have the consequence (perhaps a poor word choice) of requiring action to be in the will of God. God has often used Christians to act as his hands and feet...as the body of the church should be...however, I question the ability of deathbed (thief on the cross) conversion/confession and acceptance, if any sort of public work were required for salvation.

Your position is not that far from mine in this but I’ll try to make the distinction for the sake of argument. (we love that :wink: ) What you haven’t acknowledged is the thief’s acceptance of the lordship of Jesus Christ over his life. He has true repentance and forgiveness of those who crucified him ( “we are here justly†) and by asking that Christ remember him when he comes into his kingdom, we see he recognizes his kingship and openly surrenders to his rule over him. In so doing, he gets an honorary degree. He got his education right there in the principal’s office. At such a cost, I would rather have the chance to go through the system, as it were.

quote by TyCowboy:
We can argue the concept of heavenly crowns or rewards being stored up in heaven all day, but the fundamental issue (and perhaps I'm missing your point) of salvation to the best of my understanding of the Word is a matter of faith in Jesus, and in Him alone.

The point of my analogy was to show how salvation, a free gift, is attained by each person through works of faith, love, and obedience. I wrote it to counter claims made in other threads here, that works were in no way counted toward an individual’s salvation, when scripture plainly exclaims that we will be judged by our works for salvation. Faith and works go together to bring us salvation freely offered to all.

 

[Christopher]

Some of you people think I have a warped view of works and grace. But, my view is biblical and unfortunately, yours is the warped one. (Those with closed minds may quit reading here)

I hope you were being ironic.

 

[n2thelight]

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Grace is the source, and faith is the means by which we obtain the grace of God. It is through our faith that we believe. Faith is the action that causes us to do what we do, and comes by our acting on our belief. That action we take, because of our belief, is sustained by our confidence in God, that when we do what we are asked to do, He will fulfill His promises to us.

Faith needs a focal point to activate, and Jesus Christ and the Word of God is that focal point. With God's promises, and teachings in our mind, we have the firm foundation to act upon. Faith is not stagnate, it is action. We do not act blindly, but our actions are based on a solid foundation: the Word of God.

The "confidence" we have has no hesitation, for because of God's commitment to us, through His Word, we in turn have that same sure commitment to our "faith" in God. That faith in God then takes us to God's "grace", His unmerited favor, and forgiveness to each of us. Even though we fall short.

Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Many people take this verse and say "works will not save you". That is true. It is God's grace that brings about salvation. By yourself, you simply are not able to do anything to earn God's salvation from sin, and it's penalty.

This Ephesians 2 stresses, as Christians, we are fellow servants, and workers in Christ, and that our works will not save us, salvation just doesn't come that way. It is God that gives us all that we have, such as the gift of teaching, or as prayer warriors, or singing, or even laboring and planting seeds of God's word in the minds of others. Even being helpful with the "kind attitude" and a smile to lift others, is a gift. What ever that gift might be, we can't take credit for it, for all the credit and glory goes to the Father, and to His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you don't belief that, why would you spend any time in His work, or even call yourself a Christian. For, to you, your faith would be in a dead man. So any works you perform are all part of God's overall plan, and what ever gifts and works you do must fit into that plan. You do the works because you are saved, and not to be saved. Get it? Then in performing those works, God rewards His children for being faithful.

As we do our work, it is the Holy Spirit that directs and develops our working gifts that they can be used effectively.

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

There are those who say; "grace is all I need". The warning to us, is to stay clear of them. Their "faith" is dead, as there is no action in their belief, and definitely no confidence in the work or words of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is not pleased with "lazy Christians". He doesn't have much use for their unfruitfulness.

"Workmanship" means God's "handiwork". God made each of us for a purpose, and that purpose is to do good works. This isn't something that happened overnight, but God "before ordained", before you were even conceived, God had plans for your good works to be used in His overall plan.

 

[unred typo]

quote by onelove :
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Grace is the source, and faith is the means by which we obtain the grace of God. It is through our faith that we believe. Faith is the action that causes us to do what we do, and comes by our acting on our belief. That action we take, because of our belief, is sustained by our confidence in God, that when we do what we are asked to do, He will fulfill His promises to us.

Faith needs a focal point to activate, and Jesus Christ and the Word of God is that focal point. With God's promises, and teachings in our mind, we have the firm foundation to act upon. Faith is not stagnate, it is action. We do not act blindly, but our actions are based on a solid foundation: the Word of God.

The "confidence" we have has no hesitation, for because of God's commitment to us, through His Word, we in turn have that same sure commitment to our "faith" in God. That faith in God then takes us to God's "grace", His unmerited favor, and forgiveness to each of us. Even though we fall short.

Thanks for your input. We’re not as far apart in our beliefs as it may seem at first glance. The differences are key to where we go from there I suppose.

When I restate what you said above, it seems like we are on the same page to me, unless I have misunderstood you.

The right to become the sons of God is given to us by the grace of God. The faith that we have in God is that, by believing God and following what Christ taught, we will be made into the children of God. This option is not something God owed us because we deserve it, but because he loves us and is willing to allow us this chance to get back into his good graces again, even though we have all, in the past, rebelled against him and his ways.

Where does this belief that we have in God, that we can trust him to fulfill his promises, come from? God gives it to us through his being faithful to his promises to Abraham and Israel. When we see how he continued to bring about his promise to Abraham, while still punishing Israel when it strayed from following him, we can see that God was the ever faithful one and he can be trusted with saving us if we follow him faithfully. Our faith in God is given to us the same way our earthly fathers gave us faith in them; by being trustworthy and dependable and proving they could be counted on to do what they promised.

I don’t think either of us believes that God opens our hearts and pours in a quart of faith. So the faith that we have is based on what we see in scripture of God’s faithfulness or in real live answers to our own prayers. This is available to all, in that it has not been refused to any who come to God in truth.

quote by onelove :
Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Many people take this verse and say "works will not save you". That is true. It is God's grace that brings about salvation. By yourself, you simply are not able to do anything to earn God's salvation from sin, and it's penalty.

This Ephesians 2 stresses, as Christians, we are fellow servants, and workers in Christ, and that our works will not save us, salvation just doesn't come that way. It is God that gives us all that we have, such as the gift of teaching, or as prayer warriors, or singing, or even laboring and planting seeds of God's word in the minds of others. Even being helpful with the "kind attitude" and a smile to lift others, is a gift. What ever that gift might be, we can't take credit for it, for all the credit and glory goes to the Father, and to His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you don't belief that, why would you spend any time in His work, or even call yourself a Christian. For, to you, your faith would be in a dead man. So any works you perform are all part of God's overall plan, and what ever gifts and works you do must fit into that plan. You do the works because you are saved, and not to be saved. Get it? Then in performing those works, God rewards His children for being faithful.

This is where we have differing views. While what you say has a certain appeal, in that it has a humble sounding quality to it, it is a subtle shift of the responsibility from our human abilities and gifts from God to future ‘expected gifts’ from God. God has already given to each person gifts that they have not utilized. The ‘dead’ man, the flesh nature, in most people is very much alive and is in control of those gifts. The Spirit of God is available and waiting to help every person to take over the controls of the body and put it to work for God.

As far as taking credit for following Christ, and using our gifts to do his will, why do you step back from receiving the reward promised? This is not faith in what God said, but the opposite. God said, by faithful continuance in good works, we would inherit eternal life. He is going to glorify those who obeyed. For you to shun and disdain this praise from God is to have a false sense of humility. We should eagerly seek the praise that comes from God, and not the praise that comes from man. We will be praised by God when we obey him. If that is not a precious thing, I don’t know what is. Do you not live to hear; ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your Lord’?

quote by onelove :
As we do our work, it is the Holy Spirit that directs and develops our working gifts that they can be used effectively.

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Yes, this I agree with. As we put our body to work, doing things that God has commanded of us, giving to others, helping others, visiting the sick, those in prison, and locked in nursing homes, etc., the Holy Spirit leads us into the works that will be most helpful to further his will in the world.

quote by onelove :
There are those who say; "grace is all I need". The warning to us, is to stay clear of them. Their "faith" is dead, as there is no action in their belief, and definitely no confidence in the work or words of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is not pleased with "lazy Christians". He doesn't have much use for their unfruitfulness.

Again, amen.

quote by onelove :
"Workmanship" means God's "handiwork". God made each of us for a purpose, and that purpose is to do good works. This isn't something that happened overnight, but God "before ordained", before you were even conceived, God had plans for your good works to be used in His overall plan.

This is where we may part again. God has ordained that all should do his will, and every person has a calling from God to obey him, especially those that claim to be ‘following’ his son. God planned way back in eternity past that he would write his laws on our hearts and employ his Holy Spirit to lead and direct every person to follow those commands. He also gave us free will to choose to reject that leading if we so desired. Only those who choose to follow him will be rewarded with eternal life.

quote by onelove :
When we come to ask ourselves, and say, "Where did I learn this?" "How did I get this?" "Who taught me this?" it is astonishing to find how much we have imbibed from man, and from tradition; and not directly and for ourselves, from the Word of God

That is most certainly true. Constantly, we have to be on guard. Every day, thanks to songs and sermons we hear and read, and ungodly programs on various media sources around us, we have to weed out some false notion or another that was planted by the enemy of our souls.

 

[unred typo]

Some of you people think I have a warped view of works and grace. But, my view is biblical and unfortunately, yours is the warped one. (Those with closed minds may quit reading here)

I hope you were being ironic.

Nope, you can quit reading if you have a closed mind. Not much point in discussing it, is there?