National Israel is cursed forever !

[savedbygrace57]

Mk 11:

11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.


The nation of Israel at one time in world history was representative of Gods covenant people here on earth and had many spiritual advantages over and above all other nations of the world..rom 3:

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The oracles of God, meaning in short, important spiritual matters of the True God..

rom 9:

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Much had been given to them as a nation in order to preserve her separated from all other nations, in order for the messiah, to be born under Gods Law, to die the accursed death for the seed of Abraham..

Now Israels history as the special covenant people of God was riddled with unfaithfulness to God and apostasy, however, God tolerated her existence up unto the promised seed was born, lived and died under the Law..

After the death of Christ, of which national Israel was the chief culprit in bringing about, God Judged that nation as unworthy of eternal life acts 13:

45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

This is here a final confirmation of God rejecting and leaving Israel, the ethnic jews under His Judgment..

This is confirmed too in matt 21:

33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Israel as a nation , ethnic wise, had lost her distinction and spiritual privileges of being that nation that represented the kingdom of God on earth, and that privilege was being granted to a nation, the gentile church, which would bear that precious spiritual fruit unto God..This is too expressed in rom 11:

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

They have been cast away..and this casting away is final, as far as nationally is concerned, but not individually..but national Israel who, because of her favored position, should have bore fruit, because of the outward advantages, which the fig tree indicated, but did not bear fruit, God cursed that nation, and that forever..



14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

National Israel will never again have spiritual significance in this world, all those advantages are forever forfeited, but this was always part of Gods eternal plan and purpose for that people..

matt 21:

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


It was the Lords doings, and as the wise man says:

ecc 3:

14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..

 

[veteran]

The curse is upon those of the seed of Israel that refuse Christ, not the seed which God called which did believe, and which Apostle Paul said in Romans 11:1-5 that God had not forgotten. Even the Salvation Promise came through the seed of Israel in order to go to the Gentiles, for it was Israelites that were called to first preach the Witness of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Also, the fig tree which our Lord Jesus cursed was not about national Israel, but about the rotten basket of figs in the fig tree parable, a parable our Lord Jesus referred to, but is written in Jeremiah 24. It's about the 'tares' in the parable of the tares of the field. The good wheat in that parable especially represents national Israel, the good seed, along with believing Gentiles.

National Israel, which is about the believing remnant of Israel with whom God's Birthright stayed with, will NEVER be destroyed, and NEVER was cursed. That's how Salvation has been able to go to all nations after Christ died on the cross. National Israel is not about the nation state of Israel in the middleast today which was formed under the authority of the U.N., because those today mostly still refuse Christ Jesus, though there is a small remnant among even them which does believe on Christ Jesus as The Saviour.

And here's Apostle Paul's perspective on the matter, which some apparently have a hard time wanting to include in their understanding...

Rom 11:24-29
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)

Those verses is Apostle Paul declaring how we Gentiles are not to be puffed up in our "own conceits" about even the seed of Israel that has still yet to accept Christ Jesus as The Saviour. It is God Himself that has blinded those, so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles. That's why they are enemies of The Gospel, but one day that will all change, for as Paul says there the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. That means God will not reverse His calling upon the seed of Israel. That Message MUST be included with the subject of Romans 9 of the idea of a spiritual Israel.

Rom 11:30-32
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)

Thus it is NOT Biblical, and not Christian Doctrine, to claim even non-believing Israel is cursed forever.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The casting of them away !

This ceasing of national Covenant Israel because of Her unbelief, was of the Lords doing Matt 21:42

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

It is marvellous in our eyes..Its the greek word :

thaumastos:


wonderful, marvellous

worthy of pious admiration, admirable, excellent

passing human comprehension

causing amazement joined with terror

marvellous

extraordinary, striking, surprising

It was a mystery unfolding, a plan being manifested..

Now rom 11:15

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Lets not kid ourselves, National Israel has been cast away, that is rejected, but for a noble eternal purpose.

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world[to God], what shall the receiving of them[ the elect remnant foreknown] be, but life from the dead?

Paul here would have Loved to see some of His kinsmen according to the flesh converted to Christ from their unbelief as He was, and so seeing , because most of them were dead in sin and blind, it would be as life from the dead.

Those in the Nation of Israel who were yet sons of God by election, the remnant of the election of grace, would be made alive from the dead..lk 15:24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

So rom 11 15 as some erroneous teach, is not speaking about a future restoration of national covenant Israel, thats gone, but Paul was speaking about seeing some of his brethren according to the flesh, being grafted back into the olive tree..as he was..

 

[samuel]

Did you ever read any Old Testament, like Isaiah or Ezekiel. Both have many prophesies about Israel, and its future restoration. Wherever you learned that Israel has no future restoration you need to unlearn it, and get your theology straight.

 

[Son of Israel]

Mk 11:

11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.


The nation of Israel at one time in world history was representative of Gods covenant people here on earth and had many spiritual advantages over and above all other nations of the world..rom 3:

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The oracles of God, meaning in short, important spiritual matters of the True God..

rom 9:

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Much had been given to them as a nation in order to preserve her separated from all other nations, in order for the messiah, to be born under Gods Law, to die the accursed death for the seed of Abraham..

Now Israels history as the special covenant people of God was riddled with unfaithfulness to God and apostasy, however, God tolerated her existence up unto the promised seed was born, lived and died under the Law..

After the death of Christ, of which national Israel was the chief culprit in bringing about, God Judged that nation as unworthy of eternal life acts 13:

45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

This is here a final confirmation of God rejecting and leaving Israel, the ethnic jews under His Judgment..

This is confirmed too in matt 21:

33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Israel as a nation , ethnic wise, had lost her distinction and spiritual privileges of being that nation that represented the kingdom of God on earth, and that privilege was being granted to a nation, the gentile church, which would bear that precious spiritual fruit unto God..This is too expressed in rom 11:

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

They have been cast away..and this casting away is final, as far as nationally is concerned, but not individually..but national Israel who, because of her favored position, should have bore fruit, because of the outward advantages, which the fig tree indicated, but did not bear fruit, God cursed that nation, and that forever..



14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

National Israel will never again have spiritual significance in this world, all those advantages are forever forfeited, but this was always part of Gods eternal plan and purpose for that people..

matt 21:

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


It was the Lords doings, and as the wise man says:

ecc 3:

14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..

Correct, totally and completely.
Burned with fire as befitting that self widowed abomination whore as Christ clearly states.

 

[Son of Israel]

Did you ever read any Old Testament, like Isaiah or Ezekiel. Both have many prophesies about Israel, and its future restoration. Wherever you learned that Israel has no future restoration you need to unlearn it, and get your theology straight.

Lol Samuel. That fulfillment was in Christ beginning 2000 years ago by the Gospel.
The Church is Israel saved.
Israel is not those national zionists over in the middle east. That is the widowed whore of abomination guilty of the blood of the saints and the prophets. Surely you don't for one moment think that the prophets considered the Pharisees who crucified Jesus as having some form of "restoration" do you?

As a Jew redeemed by Christ, I am very curious of your answer.

Son of Israel

 

[samuel]

Most of Present Isreal has no promise, only destruction. But God has a remnant, of which he will restore Isreal after the tribulation (times of Jacobs trouble). What do you think the Millennial Kingdom is all about. It is not the Church! if that is what someone has taught you.

 

[Son of Israel]

And here's Apostle Paul's perspective on the matter, which some apparently have a hard time wanting to include in their understanding...

Rom 11:24-29
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)

Rom 11:30-32
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)

Thus it is NOT Biblical, and not Christian Doctrine, to claim even non-believing Israel is cursed forever.

Veteran, I am a Jew who received Christ and see that Paul's words above that you quoted refer to me and others like me aka the "remnant". We are the only true Israel because we received Christ.
No matter how hard you might try you can't force them into some private interpretive endtime futuristic prophetic application.

This O.P. is about whether those who call themselves "Israel" in the middle east ARE Israel. As students of the Word, we know that THEY are not.

(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none "effect". For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Its a no brainer.

The only means by which the Word of God has "effect" or "meaning" is by receiving Christ and becoming Israel which has been going on for 2000 years now.

It's called, "The Gospel".

It appears that you are attempting to nullify scripture meaning and replace it by endorsing the "dispensationalism" theory started in Glasgow Scotland in 1830 and perpetuated by false teachers like Scofield.

Throw that stuff away, it is a "Jewish fable" and has no reason to exist than to rob the Church of Her Israel heritage and hand it over to those in bondage and wickedness in their antichrist existence.

(2Ti 4:4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(Tit 1:14) Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

National Israel is fully and indisputably antichrist down through time since Christ and is to this day...

(2Jn 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Don't be decieived!

Love in Christ,

Son of Israel (NOT the middle east "Israel" lol)

 

[Son of Israel]

Most of Present Isreal has no promise, only destruction. But God has a remnant, of which he will restore Isreal after the tribulation (times of Jacobs trouble). What do you think the Millennial Kingdom is all about. It is not the Church! if that is what someone has taught you.

I and others like me, Jews who receive Christ, are that remnant.
I only learn from Jesus Christ and His Apostles by His Holy Spirit.
And Israel most certainly is the Church according to them.
No man taught me this, only God.
But a "man" appears to be attempting to say otherwise...

 

[faithtransforms]

Son of Israel,

Paul is clearly speaking of his jewish brothers and the nation of Israel in Romans 11. I am not quite sure what you are arguing? Are you saying that the country Israel will not be saved, but that individual jews will be?

 

[veteran]

Veteran, I am a Jew who received Christ and see that Paul's words above that you quoted refer to me and others like me aka the "remnant". We are the only true Israel because we received Christ.
No matter how hard you might try you can't force them into some private interpretive endtime futuristic prophetic application.

If you're of the seed of Israel and have believed on Christ, then you're part of that remnant of Romans 11:1-5 which Paul spoke of at the start of the chapter, not the later group he spoke in the Rom.11 verses I posted. The later group is about unbelieving Israel, and PAUL DECLARES there that God has blinded those so His Salvation could go to the Gentiles, but that eventually all Israel will be saved.

Rom 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(KJV)

Now if you want to go against what that Scripture says there, that's not my problem.

This O.P. is about whether those who call themselves "Israel" in the middle east ARE Israel. As students of the Word, we know that THEY are not.

Oh, but yes they still are, that is those there which were actually born of Israel, because there were many in the past that only took the name Jew, and weren't born of Israel. How can I be certain of this per God's Word? Simple, because in 1 Kings 11 when God split Israel into two separate 'houses', He promised He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. And that group in Jerusalem properly represents the "house of Judah" in God's Word. Then, God promised He will eventually join both that "house of Judah", AND the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) which are still lost to the world today, and make them one stick in His hand (Ezek.37). That event is about the future restoration of Israel under Christ Jesus, and is what Samuel is referring to. Several of God's OT prophets wrote about that future event.

(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none "effect". For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Its a no brainer.

The only means by which the Word of God has "effect" or "meaning" is by receiving Christ and becoming Israel which has been going on for 2000 years now.

It's called, "The Gospel".

It appears that you are attempting to nullify scripture meaning and replace it by endorsing the "dispensationalism" theory started in Glasgow Scotland in 1830 and perpetuated by false teachers like Scofield.

You're totally way off-base, and reveal you've missed a lot of prophesy written in the Old Testament that is still yet to come to pass. And applying Dispensationalism to what I'm saying is actually the opposite meaning, for it's Dispensationalists that like to throw away the concept of God eventually restoring the seed of Israel to their original inheritances under Christ in final. It's dispensationalists that likes to throw away the last part of what Paul taught in Romans 11 so they might create a whole new Gentile Church idea which they think Israelites must come under.

Apostle Paul was very clear also that it's the Gentile believers that must come under the "commonwealth of Israel" and the original Promises God gave to the chosen seed of Israel (Eph.2). You see, the remnant of Israel that believed NEVER left nor lost those Promises, having received them BEFORE Salvation was even preached to the Gentiles. This is why the NT shows it was the seed of Israel that received the Promise of Christ first in order to preach The Gospel to the Gentiles. Because others of Israel refused did not make that Promise of none 'effect' for the remnant of Israel. The remnant of Israel that believed were first in it.

Throw that stuff away, it is a "Jewish fable" and has no reason to exist than to rob the Church of Her Israel heritage and hand it over to those in bondage and wickedness in their antichrist existence.

You simply need a lot more Old Testament study to go along with New Testament study. Then you might better understand that The Gospel Promise was first given to Israel through Abraham, and there has always been a remnant of flesh Israel that believed. Since you're obviously not familiar with what God has declared about Israel's future restoration, even back to the original inheritances of the land which God first promised their fathers, then you don't have credibility for claiming what is a Jewish fable, and what isn't.

 

[veteran]

I and others like me, Jews who receive Christ, are that remnant.
I only learn from Jesus Christ and His Apostles by His Holy Spirit.
And Israel most certainly is the Church according to them.
No man taught me this, only God.
But a "man" appears to be attempting to say otherwise...

In reality, you're only partially correct that Jews who receive Christ make up the Israelite remnant of Romans 11:1-5. Only one group of Israel actually took the title of 'Jew', and it applied only to the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi which made up the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" after Solomon's days. Apostle Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, and that's why he claimed both titles of Jew and Israelite.

And, the 'house of Judah', or Jews, did not even make up the majority of Israelites per history. The ten tribes did not use that title of Jew. Those today who try to say only Jews are the seed of Israel are trying to dump the ten lost tribes of Israel which made up the majority of the chosen seed of Israel. I hear conceited Jews all the time trying to say they're the only ones of the seed of Israel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet quotes:

Rom 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(KJV)

What is this saying ? Is Paul prophesying the salvation of national Israel here ? By No means, for Paul is correcting a misunderstanding that the ethnic jews had, you see, the ethnic jews alone were never Gods Israel, but only a remnant within that nation, the blindness in part is because , there would be in national Israel always a remnant of the election of grace up until the fulness of the gentiles be completed, which is the end of the gospel age.. And So this is how all Israel shall be saved, by the conversion of the elect jews in national Israel and the grafting in of the elect gentiles from the world, those combine is How all Israel shall be saved..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Lets compare eph 2:11-22 with rom 11:

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Now the olive tree in rom 11 17 is covenant Israel [ not national Isreal]and its branches, the ones not being broken off because of unbelief, are jewish people of the nation of israel, then when the gentiles are taken from their wild olive tree [ rom 11 17] and are grafted in with that Israel [ covenant Israel], then they become part of covenant Israel too..eph 2:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Note, the saints, which would be those branches not broken off of covenant Israel, those broken off were not saints..

The True olive tree is covenant Israel of which the grafted in gentiles become part of.

For the gentiles [ the elect ones] are no longer strangers to covenant israels promises eph 2:12, 19 but are now recognized heirs of the same promises that covenant israel is heir to, with those branches that were not broke off by Gods Judgment for unbelief..

BTW those natural branches that were broken off were not part of Gods Israel of promise from Gods perspective, they were not His foreknown people see [ rom 11:2],

for they had been cut off from the Israel of promise, so we have pauls classic rom 9:6 " that they are not Israel which are of Israel "..

You see, some in covenant Israel had no root see [ matt 13: 20-21 and Jn 15: 1-7] and were not chosen in christ [ Israel] the True seed israel..

These jews were cut off from the olive tree [ covenant israel ] made spiritually blind [ see Jn 9 :39] and the chosen gentiles have been made to see [ jn 9:39] and grafted into covenant Israel, the Olive tree, so now are of covenant israel along with the natural Jews who were not cut off.. For christ is the True house of Israel heb 3:

6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Holding fast with confidence is not a condition of being of christ house, but a manifestation or effect of being of His House..

 

[faithtransforms]

This is off topic, but can someone tell me what O.P. is? Only problem maybe?

 

[samuel]

OP = "Original Poster".

I would expect Anti Semitic attitudes from a lot of people, but a converted Jew ??. Paul had a great sorrow for his blind, lost, brothers and sisters not hatred.

 

[follower of Christ]

Mk 11:

11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:ays:

ecc 3:

14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..

Sorry. Got up and had nothing to do and stopped by.
Just wanted to say 'what a load of crap'.
The owners of this forum should silence your heresies in a more permanent way, S.

READERS.
No, all of Israel has not been cursed. There is a remnent of elect Jews that will come to the Messiah just as many Gentiles will. The COVENANT with Israel that came thru Moses is obsolete, Jews must come thru this covenant and the blood of Christ, but they are NOT cast away entirely or Paul is a liar.
If the WHOLE of Israel had been cast away, then Paul himself, from the tribe of Benjamin, would also be cast out.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:1-5 KJV)

Be good Bereans and STUDY the word when these heresies present themselves.
Take no ones word for anything on an internet forum....



Also;


1.0

"House of Israel "versus "Jews" in the New Testament.

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
Some assert that the words Israel and Jew are referring to the northern and southern kingdoms when used in the NT.
My personal viewpoint is that the terms are used quite generically much of the time and are not meant to show any distinction but instead are simply in reference to the peoples who are descendants of the man Jacob whom God named 'Israel'.

Supporting Evidence
This evidence will simply show that Paul refers to himself as both Jew and Israelite showing conclusively that the two terms ARE used interchangeably in the New testament.

1.1
Paul shows that he IS a "Jew";

But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people. Act 21:39

Paul has just said above in no uncertain terms that he is a JEW.
And here;

I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. Are they Hebrews? so am I.
Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
(2Co 11:21-22 KJV)

Paul IS an ISRAELITE by his own admission AND he IS a JEW by his own admission.
This evidence shows us very clearly that the usage of "Jew" and "Israel(ite)" in the NT are not meant to be referring to the two separate kingdoms but that Paul uses these terms quite generically/interchangeably.

1.2

Here Paul shows conclusively that the term 'Jews' is used generically to speak about Israel as a whole nation

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
(Rom 3:1-2 KJV)

The Law was given to Israel thru the prophet Moses. It was not just given to the house of Judah. So if 'Jews = ONLY the house of Judah" in every instance we have a terrible conflict in Pauls words above


2.0

Additional Supporting Evidence

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

*IF* Jesus is ONLY sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, then why is He preaching
to "Jews" which are Judah ?

Clearly He has drawn MANY followers from the Jews (Judah) which conclusively shows that
He CANNOT have meant that He has only come for the House of Isreal(ie nonJews), but is excluding
Judah (Jews) entirely.

If He is 'not sent' except to the House of Isreal, and the House of Israel He speaks of is
not including the Jews/Judah, then why is it that He has so many of the Jews who have accepted and are following Him ?

It stands to reason that the use of 'Jew' in the NT is not exclusively talking about Judah versus Israel, but that it IS used in such a manner as to be speaking about the entire Hebrew nation overall.

.

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

Sorry. Got up and had nothing to do and stopped by.
Just wanted to say 'what a load of crap'.

That statement is directed at Jesus christ you know..

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

yikes, ya know this is bound to be a touchy subject with many.

I believe i would have to agree that the bible agrees with the o.p. if i am understanding them correctly.

There are still elect jews who have been and will be saved, but as far as the national jewish israel, i agree it is eternally cursed and as a national physical israel does not inherit now. All who will inherit any promise at all do so by coming into faith in Christ Jesus. and WE all believers in CHrist no matter flesh are Israel and it is only believers who inherit.

The common teaching that somehow national israel will be saved and have their seperate promises and be seperate from us and inherit seperate place and promises in a differnt time or " dispensation" from us is totally false. Jesus and paul both made it clear(and it was prophesied in the OT they just did not understand the prophesies) that Jesus would take both groups and make them eternally ONE in Him.

Paul also made it very clear that ALL promises are IN Christ Jesus and were not made with the jews themselves but with the promised seed and that only IN HIM to any inherit.

It is very sad to me, that Jesus died to break down the wall of seperation, and then sent His SPirit to dwell IN everyone who would believe, knitting us together in ONE BODY where literally IN HIM remain the promises, and to all who abide IN HIM do they go for us to possess them by faith. No more having flesh as a means of profitting anything, that we can all be born from heaven and be no more in the flesh and be just as in love with our brother whose flesh was jewish, as our brother whose flesh is greek- YET false teachers have decieved most of the christian world into believing again in a seperation, a division, a schism, a wall, a barrier. To cut us off from each other, to cut the gentiles off of the promises that Christ gives us IN HIM, and to cut the jewish believers off of the precious body of Christ.


The CHURCH- the BODY OF CHRIST was the eternal plan of God for SONS of God no matter their flesh. WE are a holy nation a spiritual people. There is no need in the eternal plan of God for anyone to be saved outside of that.

 

[veteran]

Lets compare eph 2:11-22 with rom 11:

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Now the olive tree in rom 11 17 is covenant Israel [ not national Isreal]and its branches, the ones not being broken off because of unbelief, are jewish people of the nation of israel, then when the gentiles are taken from their wild olive tree [ rom 11 17] and are grafted in with that Israel [ covenant Israel], then they become part of covenant Israel too..eph 2:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Note, the saints, which would be those branches not broken off of covenant Israel, those broken off were not saints..

The True olive tree is covenant Israel of which the grafted in gentiles become part of.

For the gentiles [ the elect ones] are no longer strangers to covenant israels promises eph 2:12, 19 but are now recognized heirs of the same promises that covenant israel is heir to, with those branches that were not broke off by Gods Judgment for unbelief..

Almost, but not quite. You're getting there though...

Covenant Israel, National Israel, those are confusing terms not actually written. Let's just say the flesh chosen seed of Israel, regardless of where they are in the world...

Rom 11:14-29
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

In this section of Rom.11, Paul is NOT talking about the remnant of flesh Israel according to the election of grace. Those of verse 1-5 are like even the preserved 7,000 elect of Elijah's day which Paul compared them to. And if you only knew, today there's a whole... lot more of those than 7,000.

But these starting at verse 14 are different, YET, Paul's Message of Israel whom God foreknew is about these also, only that these are the rest that were blinded by God per Rom.11:7...

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
(KJV)

Paul pulls from Isaiah 29 about that blindness, the "spirit of deep sleep" which God put upon them. The question is, will God leave that blindness He put upon them forever? No, not forever. And because God did it, are we to treat these as nothings? Paul didn't.


16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, 'The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.'
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

We who have believed on Christ Jesus are not to be "high minded" about their unbelief. Afterall, Paul says God blinded them so Christ's Salvation would come to us.


22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If we who have believed fail to continue in Christ's Grace, then we shall likewise be cut off. So we need to be careful.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Their condition is not abiding in unbelief, to be graffed in again. And who can honestly say they know they won't come to believe? If not all, then how many might? Who can give a number? No one can. And when Paul later says, "And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins' ", who knows that won't mean all Israel like Paul says? Who can go against God's Will in that?

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul teaches that blindness from God is His doing, and, that it will one day be removed by God's Hand. So there's every reason to think that when that fulness of the Gentiles time comes in, even the unbelieving of Israel will have their eyes opened by God Himself, and believe on Christ Jesus.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Can this mean absolutely ALL of unbelieving Israel will turn to Christ Jesus? Isaiah 59 says those that turn from transgression in Jacob. So maybe not absolutely all of them, but how would Paul's hope be for them? That's the hope for them we must go on also.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for The Fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)

Paul's still speaking of unbelieving blinded Israel at this point. They're enemies against The Gospel for our sakes. But to God they are STILL part of His election, and beloved for The Father's sake. That's another pointer by Paul that he felt God will remove their blindness eventually.