National Israel is cursed forever !

[savedbygrace57]

vet says:

Covenant Israel, National Israel, those are confusing terms not actually written

There is nothing confusing about them, you just dont understand Gods plan..covnenat Israel is Jesus christ, representd by National Israel..the key is understanding that Jesus christ is Israel..There are many things not actually written in scripture, and its a reason for that..

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet :

Paul teaches that blindness from God is His doing, and, that it will one day be removed by God's Hand. So there's every reason to think that when that fulness of the Gentiles time comes in, even the unbelieving of Israel will have their eyes opened by God Himself, and believe on Christ Jesus.

The blindness of Israel [ nationally ] was in part because there would be a remnant within her of the election of grace, until the end of the church age [ the fulness of the gentiles] at which time the second coming is due.

The only unbelieving jews that will believe will be individual jews of the election of grace, but the nation of Israel itsself is cut off forever..that national covenant is ceased..

 

[faithtransforms]

Veteran wrote:

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Thank you! Exactly what I was going to post until I saw you'd already posted it. If they believe, God is ABLE and WILLING to graft them in again. Plain and simple.

Savedbygrace, your distinction between the "nation" of Israel and individual jews does not make any sense. If someone happens to belong to the nation of Israel but become a believer, are they ineligible for salvation? Hogwash.

 

[samuel]

The number of Jews coming to faith in Jesus, has nothing to do with the elect of the nation Israel. Those who come to faith in Christ, are a part of the Church, and again have nothing to do with the reserved elect from the nation Israel.

If you read the book of Hosea, this is about the Nation of Israel, and its future restoration. I think its really bad the Churches no longer teach the Bible, but how can they! most of them don't even know which book is the Bible anymore. Some people really need it. :yes

The stuff that is flying around in this thread, is called Replacement Theology. It is unGodly, anti-Semitic, and a damnable heresy. And I wouldn't want to be found on judgment day, guilty of holding to it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

samuel:

The number of Jews coming to faith in Jesus, has nothing to do with the elect of the nation Israel.

Yes it does, thats the only way jews can be saved, if they belong to the election of grace..Its always only been a remnant within the nation that God counted as His People israel rom 9:27

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The rest were blinded..

 

[samuel]

Yes it has to do with the remnant coming to faith in Jesus, as their Messiah. But nothing to do with the same faith as that of Grace, in which the sacrifice of blood saved. It is Grace for Grace, extended to the Jewish people.

This is simply to see as Messiah, the one they refused and sacrificed. They get their expected coming Messiah just as they would have the first time around, had they not been blinded in part. And the whole Nation all 12 tribes of them, will be restored from that remnant. That is what the Millennial Kingdom is all about, God fulfilling his promises to the Jews, not the Church.

It is a little hard to see the slight differences in the Grace through Jesus here, but it is what it is.

 

[samuel]

Forums are not really my cup of tea. I find it hard to deal with a one sided conversation, I was never a letter writer.

What I am trying to get across is there is the Church, and then there is National Israel. Yes all salvation is based on Jesus sacrifice, but does not apply to Israel in the same exact way that it does to the Church. Maybe there is someone here, that is more adept to explaining things by proxy than I, that can get this across.

I can do much better in an interactive conversation, and several times have threatened to never post on a forum again. I really do not have the talent for it.

 

[Son of Israel]

Son of Israel,

Paul is clearly speaking of his jewish brothers and the nation of Israel in Romans 11. I am not quite sure what you are arguing? Are you saying that the country Israel will not be saved, but that individual jews will be?

Yes faith
Just the way Jesus has always been doing it. Just like what Paul was saying.
If Jesus was going to save the "country" or the "nation" like the Pharisees thought, Then He would have answered them affirmatively when asked and He would have saved them from the Romans. But He never said anything of the sort, instead, He showed us it is one person at a time who enters into the Kingdom of God, when Christ Himself enters into each of us when we receive Him
Christ is only interested in saving each individual who comes to Him by the Gospel. That IS the Gospel
Any other "gospel" as though "natural" Israel is saved outside of how Christ has been saving us for 2000 years now, is heresy.
That is what Romans 11 is saying. When all those are saved who "come in out of the Nations" then is the end! Israel is saved!
All of us are Israel saved, all of us are entering the Kingdom of God when we receive Christ!
That is the good news Gospel, no more "Jew or Greek, bond or free" etc etc. That is clear or is certainly should be.

 

[Son of Israel]

The number of Jews coming to faith in Jesus, has nothing to do with the elect of the nation Israel. Those who come to faith in Christ, are a part of the Church, and again have nothing to do with the reserved elect from the nation Israel.

If you read the book of Hosea, this is about the Nation of Israel, and its future restoration. I think its really bad the Churches no longer teach the Bible, but how can they! most of them don't even know which book is the Bible anymore. Some people really need it. :yes

The stuff that is flying around in this thread, is called Replacement Theology. It is unGodly, anti-Semitic, and a damnable heresy. And I wouldn't want to be found on judgment day, guilty of holding to it.

The Dispensationalists and followers of Scofield theology are attempting to rob the Church of Her Israel heritage in the New Covenant Marriage in Christ, and give it away to anti-Christ Jews over in palestine. Now THAT is what Jesus would call "replacement theology. THAT is unGodly, and THAT is a damnable heresy. Christians! YOU are God's Chosen Royal Priesthood! You are the Heirs of Promise of Abraham! You are the Israel Bride of Christ! From within you is the Kingdom of God.

Beware the leaven of the Pharisees!!!

Son of Israel

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

The Dispensationalists and followers of Scofield theology are attempting to rob the Church of Her Israel heritage in the New Covenant Marriage in Christ, and give it away to anti-Christ Jews over in palestine. Now THAT is what Jesus would call "replacement theology. THAT is unGodly, and THAT is a damnable heresy. Christians! YOU are God's Chosen Royal Priesthood! You are the Heirs of Promise of Abraham! You are the Israel Bride of Christ! From within you is the Kingdom of God.

Beware the leaven of the Pharisees!!!

Son of Israel

Son of Israel, boy i dont always agree with you but boy i do this time LOL :amen

 

[samuel]

I do not follow Scofields theology, nor any denominational theologies. There is a distinction between the Church, and the Nation of Israel. God has not abandoned his chosen people; yes their government stinks, just like this one does. But Gods choices are not based on human government, he has his ways of changing those trivial things. God is not a liar, nor an Indian giver, he made certain promises to Israel which he cannot break. As the Scripture says let every man be found a liar, and God be true.

I really don't know how you folks read the Old Testament, or even if you do?. But your argument is flying in the face of God. Yes at the present time he is not dealing with Israel, but in the future that will change, as soon as the Church is complete.

 

[savedbygrace57]

samuel says:

he made certain promises to Israel which he cannot break

Which Israel, for paul sees two rom 9:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[follower of Christ]

Mk 11:

11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:ays:

ecc 3:

14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..

Sorry. Got up and had nothing to do and stopped by.
Just wanted to say 'what a load of crap'.
The owners of this forum should silence your heresies in a more permanent way, S.

READERS.
No, all of Israel has not been cursed. There is a remnent of elect Jews that will come to the Messiah just as many Gentiles will. The COVENANT with Israel that came thru Moses is obsolete, Jews must come thru this covenant and the blood of Christ, but they are NOT cast away entirely or Paul is a liar.
If the WHOLE of Israel had been cast away, then Paul himself, from the tribe of Benjamin, would also be cast out.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:1-5 KJV)

Be good Bereans and STUDY the word when these heresies present themselves.
Take no ones word for anything on an internet forum....



Also;


1.0

"House of Israel "versus "Jews" in the New Testament.

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
Some assert that the words Israel and Jew are referring to the northern and southern kingdoms when used in the NT.
My personal viewpoint is that the terms are used quite generically much of the time and are not meant to show any distinction but instead are simply in reference to the peoples who are descendants of the man Jacob whom God named 'Israel'.

Supporting Evidence
This evidence will simply show that Paul refers to himself as both Jew and Israelite showing conclusively that the two terms ARE used interchangeably in the New testament.

1.1
Paul shows that he IS a "Jew";
[quote:2923h9g1]
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people. Act 21:39

Paul has just said above in no uncertain terms that he is a JEW.
And here;

I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. Are they Hebrews? so am I.
Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
(2Co 11:21-22 KJV)

Paul IS an ISRAELITE by his own admission AND he IS a JEW by his own admission.
This evidence shows us very clearly that the usage of "Jew" and "Israel(ite)" in the NT are not meant to be referring to the two separate kingdoms but that Paul uses these terms quite generically/interchangeably.

1.2

Here Paul shows conclusively that the term 'Jews' is used generically to speak about Israel as a whole nation

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
(Rom 3:1-2 KJV)

The Law was given to Israel thru the prophet Moses. It was not just given to the house of Judah. So if 'Jews = ONLY the house of Judah" in every instance we have a terrible conflict in Pauls words above


2.0

Additional Supporting Evidence

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

*IF* Jesus is ONLY sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, then why is He preaching
to "Jews" which are Judah ?

Clearly He has drawn MANY followers from the Jews (Judah) which conclusively shows that
He CANNOT have meant that He has only come for the House of Isreal(ie nonJews), but is excluding
Judah (Jews) entirely.

If He is 'not sent' except to the House of Isreal, and the House of Israel He speaks of is
not including the Jews/Judah, then why is it that He has so many of the Jews who have accepted and are following Him ?

It stands to reason that the use of 'Jew' in the NT is not exclusively talking about Judah versus Israel, but that it IS used in such a manner as to be speaking about the entire Hebrew nation overall.

.[/quote:2923h9g1]

 

[TonkaTim]

Samuel,

What you are espousing is called dispensationalism. It declares two ways. One for the gentiles and another for the Jews. It is based on the "new view" that we are in an age of "dispensation of grace" for the gentiles.

The term "replacement theology" did not come into the modern lexicon until the term "dispensationalism"(new view) became prevalent in western culture. Until the dispensationalism caught hold, the view of Christians was not called replacement theology, it was just considered fulfillment. For one to hold on to the dispensational view one has to ignore many parts of the Bible specifically what the the Apostles taught. All one has to do is read Acts chapters 2,3 the beginning of 4 to see how Christ is for the Jews as much as anyone(over 8000 were saved at the formation of the church). Specifically in Chapter 3 of Acts, One will find Jews(Apostles) preaching Christ Jesus (descendant of Judah(jew)) in the land of the Jews (Judaea) in the city of the Jews(jerusalem) in the temple of the Jews that ALL the prophets of the Jews, ALL the patriarchs of the Jews (including Abraham's promises) are fulfilled in Christ.

I find it ironic that you would call those who follow the "taught" "traditions" that the Apostle Paul instructed us to "hold fast" in 2 Thessalonians 2 the "heretics". The "taught tradtions" of the Apostles and fulfillment is quite obvious in Acts 3 and throughout the Bible. It is considered the historic view since it goes all the way back to the time of Christ and is the teachings of the Apostles. Not only did the Apostles teach it, there disciples taught it. We see it in the writings of the early church fathers who were taught by the Apostles and down through the chain of their students, like Hippolytus, who was the student of Iranaeus, who taugh it, who was the student of Polycarp, who was the disciple of the Apostle John. The historic view, the "taught tradtions" were the dominant view until the early 1970's in the west until Hal Lindsey wrote the book The Late Great Planet Earth. That is when dispensationalism went viral in the west.

So in short we now have 2 dominant views the historic view that has a historical record of "taught tradition" for over 2000 years through the Apostles, the disciples of the Apostles, their students the early church fathers, men like Polycarp, Ignatious, Clemet, Iranaeus, Hippolytus, Jusin Martyr,Luther, Calvin, Richard Hooker, Matthew Henry, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon.

Versus the new view that was started in the early 19th century by the father of dispensationalism John Nelson Darby, who through Cyrus Scofield's reference bible commentaries lead the Hal Lindsey & John Haggee,TBN, view.

This leads to one calling those who hold the historic view anti-semites, well the historic view witnesses to all the One-Way, the fulfillment of Christ as taught by the Apostles, it wants to share the love & joy of knowing Christ with all so no one is lost. The new view declares two-ways (refuted by the Bible, by Christ & the Apsotles) of salvation one for the nations(ethnos-greek=gentiles) and another for the Jews. Two-ways not One-Way. I find the way that denies the Jews hearing the gospel of Christ to be the anti-semitic way because it denies them from hearing the Word, thus denying them Christ. To me that is the most hateful thing in the world, for one to refuse to share Christ with another.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Israel as a nation , ethnic wise, had lost her distinction and spiritual privileges of being that nation that represented the kingdom of God on earth, and that privilege was being granted to a nation, the gentile church, which would bear that precious spiritual fruit unto God..

They have been cast away..and this casting away is final, as far as nationally is concerned, but not individually..but national Israel who, because of her favored position, should have bore fruit, because of the outward advantages, which the fig tree indicated, but did not bear fruit, God cursed that nation, and that forever..

National Israel will never again have spiritual significance in this world, all those advantages are forever forfeited, but this was always part of Gods eternal plan and purpose for that people..

Let's read what thus said the Lord about His people;

Isa. 65
[17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

So here we have God speaking about a time in the future. Let's continue;

[18] But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
[19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

So God will rejoice in the new Jerusalem. Let's see who else will be there;

[21] And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22] They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Now who was it that stayed in the dwellings that Israel built, and who was it that ate the food that Israel grew? It was not Israel! But what does God say? They will now live in the homes they build and eat the food they grow. Who will do this? God says, "mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."

Let's read more;

Jer.30
[3] For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

And at what time will this happen? Let's read;

[7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

This is speaking of the second coming of God.

[10] Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

[17] For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
[18] Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

Now let's read and see if Israel will be cast off forever;

Jer.33
[24] Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
[25] Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
[26] Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Just as God has made a covenant with day and night, that cannot be broken, so is His covenant with the seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.


.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ecc says:

Let's read what thus said the Lord about His people;

Only a remnant in that nation was His people, those foreknown, all the others Jesus said belonged to their Father the devil Jn 8:

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Jesus said to them, they are not of God Jn 8:47

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

I know you dont mean to insinuate that Jesus called jewish people not of God, and yet they were Gods people

 

[samuel]

I would like to know one thing?. What Bible, Church, Teacher, or Preacher, are you people getting all this anti-Semitic theology from. None of it is correct, None of it is of God, and it could very well send you to Hell.
I would drop this stuff quicker than a red hot poker, God has said; I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you (speaking of the Nation of Israel). And that is also a promise he will keep.

 

[savedbygrace57]

samuel says:

(speaking of the Nation of Israel

No He is not, He is speaking of Israel the people which are One with Jesus christ..not the nation, God only had a remnant in the nation at all times..

isa 1:9

Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

If not for a small remnant the Nation of Israel is liken unto sodom and gomorrah, a wicked people to God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

samuel:

I would like to know one thing?. What Bible, Church, Teacher, or Preacher, are you people getting all this anti-Semitic theology from.

There is nothing anti jew about it, for God saves ethnic jews too according to the election of grace, but its you that mistakenly believe that Gods chosen people are a ethnic race, the jews, thats racism..Gods chosen people Israel is not chosen by race but by grace and takes in all the ethnicities of the world..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Israel according to the flesh ! -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 cor 10:18

Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

It would seem quite reasonable from this statement Paul made " Israel after the flesh" that there is also an "Israel after the Spirit" !

Meaning a spiritual Israel of which Paul points out in rom 9:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Now, was Israel after the flesh Gods chosen people ? Yes they were, those Israelites were also called sheep because they were a typical people..

according to our English dictionary typical means:

Exhibiting the qualities, traits, or characteristics that identify a kind, class, group, or category: a typical suburban community.
Of or relating to a representative specimen; characteristic or distinctive.
Conforming to a type: a composition typical of the baroque period.
also typ·ic (-http://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/ibreve.gifk) KEY Of the nature of, constituting, or serving as a type; emblematic.
The Jews according to the flesh were emblematic or symbolical of Gods election of grace [ from amongest all mankind], for their being distinguished nationally as God's chosen people under the the Old Covenant, a National Covenant, they set forth Gods chosen in Christ eph 1:4, unto eternal life titus 1:1-2.

Let it not be misunderstood, just because they had been nationally chosen as Gods covenant people [ rom 9:4 & rom 3:1-2] they did not all of that nation have a interest in the everlasting covenant of grace. They all were accepted in the National Covenant which God made with Abraham and His seed, but this does not give them title nor interest in the everlasting covenant of grace; hence Paul writes in rom 9:6

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And in rom 2:


28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Its spiritual circumcision of the heart that constitutes Gods definition of a true Jew before His eyes.. see phil 3:3

Romans 9 6 and rom 2 27-28 are two of the most enlightening verses in the whole bible in defining Gods definition of a Jew, and yet they are most unappreciated and neglected in mostly all of religion today, in favor of carnal reasoning and traditions of men.

So yes, Israel according to the flesh was a chosen typical people, but the election of grace from all nations are the True Israel of God, the children of promise..

The typical gave way to the anti typical by the shedding of the blood of the New Covenant..

Heb 8:

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.