Nationalism As a Religion

[jasoncran]

even though its awesome that a yankee would know of the nature of the war of nothern agression:D, can we not go into the civil war and the confederecy?

 

[farouk]

even though its awesome that a yankee would know of the nature of the war of nothern agression:D, can we not go into the civil war and the confederecy?

I was almost going to ask about that, but, you're right, we need not go there.

I guess the whole thing about centering Bible teaching on flag pledges, or not doing so, means different things to different people. (Or I'm not sure exactly what I mean.) From up here, I can't presume to mean what Americans mean, or some Americans mean, about the subject. So it's a good subject for you guys, really.

 

[Pard]

Me being a Yank is just more evidence of God's wicked sense of humor

And I don't feel that the pledge is part of my church at all. Sure, most everyone in my church loves America, in fact most everyone in my church comes from another country (mostly Mexico and India) and they know what bad countries are like and are very adamant about praising God for the opportunity to come to a country where they don't have to be in fear. But we don't pledge ourselves to anything. We don't even have a flag in the worship area.

 

[farouk]

Me being a Yank is just more evidence of God's wicked sense of humor

And I don't feel that the pledge is part of my church at all. Sure, most everyone in my church loves America, in fact most everyone in my church comes from another country (mostly Mexico and India) and they know what bad countries are like and are very adamant about praising God for the opportunity to come to a country where they don't have to be in fear. But we don't pledge ourselves to anything. We don't even have a flag in the worship area.

P.

Well, I see, yes.

Certainly you guys have got many privileges in the US.

Mexico and India were mentioned; I'm sure those countries — very different in some ways — have some nice parts, too.

 

[Pard]

Yeah, I am sure they have nice parts, but if they were from the nice parts I am sure they'd have stuck there. From what I've been told those from India were pretty much stuck in a state of poverty because of a caste system. The people from Mexico I know personally were adopted by a family at our church because they had their home destroyed by a drug gang on the southern border of Mexico (where the drugs from South American come through).

 

[farouk]

Yeah, I am sure they have nice parts, but if they were from the nice parts I am sure they'd have stuck there. From what I've been told those from India were pretty much stuck in a state of poverty because of a caste system. The people from Mexico I know personally were adopted by a family at our church because they had their home destroyed by a drug gang on the southern border of Mexico (where the drugs from South American come through).

P:

Yes, I've heard that some areas have a lot of difficulties and violence in Mexico.

I think that there are about 100 million ppl in Mexico (with Mexico City among the largest in the world). I guess not everywhere in Mexico is the same as the parts with all the violence.

I like the design of the Mexican flag, btw.

(and Mexican food! )

 

[Pard]

My tongue likes Mexican, but somewhere along the line I begin to disagree with it! :toofunny

 

[farouk]

My tongue likes Mexican, but somewhere along the line I begin to disagree with it! :toofunny

Maybe it's the hot peppers.

(But I think I've digressed a bit.)

 

[lesjude]

I am sorry for you you do not see the bondage you are in.

Please explain.
I am certainly willing to consider anything you have to say.

 

[jasoncran]

lol the flag with the idea that comes from the aztec legend.the star of david is one that well i like besides old glory.

 

[lesjude]

P:

Yes, I've heard that some areas have a lot of difficulties and violence in Mexico.

I think that there are about 100 million ppl in Mexico (with Mexico City among the largest in the world). I guess not everywhere in Mexico is the same as the parts with all the violence.

I like the design of the Mexican flag, btw.

(and Mexican food! )

Violence and lawlessness is everywhere in Mexico. It is a failed state. It is only a matter of degree of the lawlessness as to the location one is in.

 

[Sinthesis]

Nationalism As a Religion
Nationalism, just as religion has its fathers of the 'faith', its 'sacred' writings, symbols, its creeds and oaths of allegiance, songs/hymns of praise, it's shrines, its heroes of the 'faith' and martyrs, defenders of the 'faith', the crime of treason/heresy, requirements/demands for sacrifice and service, and financial obligations. Nations grant 'absolution' for acts done to defend it that other wise would be crimes. It has willing followers who pledge their lives, fortunes, sacred honor, and families to defend it. It has rewards for service, ideals and goals that unite believers, and offers an identity that transcends self for the perceived common good.
When a Christian worships at the altar of nationalism/patriotism he is simply bowing down to another religion just as Nebuchadnezzer required.
Christians worship at this altar when they send their sons and daughters off to fight, kill, be maimed and die in its carnal wars, allow their children to be brain washed by the propaganda of US history, engage in the uncleanness of partisan politics, swear oaths to serve it, and pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth that is the symbol of a nation that has done at least as much evil as good in the world, as well as within its own borders.
Shadrach, Meshack, and Abed-Nego understood this and so refused to bow down. They knew what kingdom they were citizens of just as Daniel did, and the true nature of ALL earthly kingdoms. Christians do not seem to know this and pay a very high price because they do not.
First it is pledging allegiance to something that as Christians we cannot support and is a lie. This nation is not under God in the sense it obeys Him, there is NOT liberty and justice for all, and that God's name is Jesus.
Here is what a believer should do for the nation he is in:
1 Timothy 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)



2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
Please be aware that Nero was killing Christians by the 100's when this and Romans 13:1-10 were written.


Romans 13:1-7

New King James Version (NKJV)

Submit to Government

13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

Please be aware that Nero and Paul both died in the '60s.

You might also want to re-read the Book of Daniel. Shadrach, Meshack, and Abed-Nego, not to mention Daniel, were all loyal servants of Nebuchadnezzar to the purposes of God. Their service to Babylon and faith in God stood as a lamp post to light the gentile world.

 

[lesjude]

Please be aware that Nero and Paul both died in the '60s.

You might also want to re-read the Book of Daniel. Shadrach, Meshack, and Abed-Nego, not to mention Daniel, were all loyal servants of Nebuchadnezzar to the purposes of God. Their service to Babylon and faith in God stood as a lamp post to light the gentile world.

They killed no one. They did not compromise on the light they had. And refused to bow down to the King or his God and in this they were NOT loyal. In point of fact they saved lives.
There is nothing wrong with being a loyal citizen by obeying the laws, praying for government, and honoring the leaders by not criticizing them. Killing for the unregenerate government and swearing its oaths is quite different and against the scripture.
Daniel did make a serious mistake in Dan 2:46-47 which may be the reason he and his friends had to make the "trips" they did. He never made it again however see Daniel 5:17.
I see the principle of a prophet/man of God speaking a word from God to a national ruler for good. It was done with George Bush Sr. He did not listen and was not elected for a second term.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Please explain.
I am certainly willing to consider anything you have to say.

Reba, I would like an explanation too.

I don't follow you.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I am sorry for you you do not see the bondage you are in.

Reba?

This one!

 

[reba]

I read lesjude as being in bondage. Not just from the posting in this thread but around these forums.

 

[lesjude]

I read lesjude as being in bondage. Not just from the posting in this thread but around these forums.

Explain please.