[_ Old Earth _] NCSE Laments TBOE Recent Decisions

[Crying Rock]

Crying Rock wrote:

Can you make a living cell's membrane?

Barbarian wrote:

Yes, it's surprisingly easy. It's just a bilayer of phospholipid molecules...

...But any biochemist could make a cell membrane.

Crying Rock wrote:

This team recieved a large grant for something you can already do:

"Researchers from Stanford and five other institutions have been awarded a four-year, $1.6 million grant from the National Science Foundation to construct artificial cell membranes that mimic the activities of real ones."

"The hope is to build artificial membrane systems that are as close to a biological membrane as we can get right now," says Longo, associate professor of chemical engineering and materials science at UC-Davis."

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/augu ... 82405.html

You should call them ASAP and let them know you already know how to pull off this simple feat!!

Also warn them:

I don't think they're going to like how this plays out in the classroom. The issue of the complexity of the cell will allow science teachers to undercut ID's claims.

...the question of complexity of the cell, because it shows that the most fundamental (pun intended) part of the cell is incredibly simple. The cell membrane is a very simple bilayer of simple molecules that spontaneously form into vesicles in water. One can certainly conceive of a better cell membrane, but this one works well enough, and being the first element in the living cell (because a cell membrane is the one absolutely essential element) it was understandably quite simple...

 

[Barbarian]

Interesting. I showed you the most primitive membrane, without all the add-ons. The modern one, BTW, has the same basic structure, with a lot of proteins inserted in the bilayer, doing various things.

A somewhat more advanced synthetic cell membrane had already been patented:
US Patent 5962638 - Peptides and synthetic cell membranes
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5962638/claims.html

 

[Crying Rock]

A somewhat more advanced synthetic cell membrane had already been patented:
US Patent 5962638 - Peptides and synthetic cell membranes
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5962638/claims.html

Interesting, though the complexity of living cells' membranes has prevented highly intelligent individuals from coming anywhere close to constructing one.

Crying Rock wrote:

Can you make a living cell's membrane?

Barbarian wrote:

Yes, it's surprisingly easy.

 

[Barbarian]

Interesting, though the complexity of living cells' membranes has prevented highly intelligent individuals from coming anywhere close to constructing one.

Someone patented one, a few years ago.

And that was a complex, modern one, not a primitive cell membrane. Put the basic molecules of a cell membrane in water, and they spontaneously form vesicles.

That's another clue. The cell membrane would have to be self-constructing. And it is.

 

[Crying Rock]

Interesting, though the complexity of living cells' membranes has prevented highly intelligent individuals from coming anywhere close to constructing one.

Someone patented one, a few years ago.

And that was a complex, modern one, not a primitive cell membrane.

No, that is a synthetic cell membrane which does not come anywhere close to the complexity of a biological cell membrane. And it is not self-constructing. Intelligence constructed the membrane.

Crying Rock wrote:

"Researchers from Stanford and five other institutions have been awarded a four-year, $1.6 million grant from the National Science Foundation to construct artificial cell membranes that mimic the activities of real ones."

"The hope is to build artificial membrane systems that are as close to a biological membrane as we can get right now," says Longo, associate professor of chemical engineering and materials science at UC-Davis."

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/augu ... 82405.html

 

[Barbarian]

No, that is a synthetic cell membrane which does not come anywhere close to the complexity of a living cell membrane.

It's much more complex than the simplest "living' cell membrane. That one is just one molecule, repeated over and over. (see illustration) And of course, the cell membrane is not "living"; what we call "life" is the interaction of the parts of a cell. With the exception of a few organelles, which have their own DNA and metabolic processes, (they are highly evolved endosymbiotic bacteria) no part of the cell is "alive."

And it is not self-constructing.

Turns out that it is. Put the basic units of the cell membrane in water, and they spontaneously form a bilayer, which then forms vesicles. This is one of the reasons ID is not accepted by most scientists; if the cell was "designed", you would not expect the first component to be so simple.

On the other hand, if it was created by an omnipotent God, that would make perfect sense.

Intelligence constructed the membrane.

No. It comes together with no sign of intelligence at all. The only Intelligence is the One who created the universe so such wonders could appear without design.

 

[Crying Rock]

Can you make a living cell's membrane?

Barbarian wrote:

Yes, it's surprisingly easy. It's just a bilayer of phospholipid molecules...

...But any biochemist could make a cell membrane.

Crying Rock wrote:

This team received a large grant for something you can already do:

"Researchers from Stanford and five other institutions have been awarded a four-year, $1.6 million grant from the National Science Foundation to construct artificial cell membranes that mimic the activities of real ones."

"The hope is to build artificial membrane systems that are as close to a biological membrane as we can get right now," says Longo, associate professor of chemical engineering and materials science at UC-Davis."

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/augu ... 82405.html

Crying Rock wrote:

Interesting, though the complexity of living cells' membranes has prevented highly intelligent individuals from coming anywhere close to constructing one.

The Barbarian wrote

A somewhat more advanced synthetic cell membrane had already been patented:
US Patent 5962638 - Peptides and synthetic cell membranes

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5962638/claims.html

Crying Rock wrote:

No, that is a synthetic cell membrane, which does not come anywhere close to the complexity of a living cell membrane.

It's much more complex than the simplest "living' cell membrane. That one is just one molecule, repeated over and over. (see illustration)

So why is it that researchers are being granted big grants to construct membranes which may slightly approach the complexity of cell membranes of living organisms?

…no part of the cell is "alive."

I don’t think anyone is arguing that individual components of a living organism are living. I think it is obvious I was referring to cell membranes from living organisms.

Crying Rock wrote:
Interesting, though the complexity of living cells' membranes has prevented highly intelligent individuals from coming anywhere close to constructing one.

The Barbarian wrote:
Someone patented one, a few years ago.

And that was a complex, modern one, not a primitive cell membrane.

No, that is a synthetic cell membrane, which does not come anywhere close to the complexity of a biological cell membrane. And it is not self-constructing. Intelligence constructed the membrane.

Crying Rock wrote:

And it is not self-constructing.

The Barbarian wrote:

Turns out that it is.

.

Crying Rock wrote:

It is?

“…constructing the membranes by the Langmiur-Blodgett technique…â€Â

“…amino acid residue selected from a group …â€Â

“…amino acid or dipeptide residue selected from a group…â€Â

“…residue selected from a group…â€Â

“…amino acid residue selected from a group…â€Â

“…amino acid or dipeptide residue selected from a group…â€Â

“…process for the preparation of a compound of formula…â€Â

“…comprises one or more inserted light-driven proteins and which can act as solar cell …â€Â

“…process for the production of the synthetic cell membrane…â€Â

“…introducing a substrate…â€Â

“…activating the peptide…â€Â

“… coupling the peptide to said lipid residues…â€Â

“…adding liposomes…â€Â

“…an inserted membrane protein…â€Â


http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5962638/claims.html

synthetic- Produced artificially, especially in a laboratory or other man-made environment.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/synthetic

Crying Rock wrote:

Intelligence constructed the membrane.

The Barbarian wrote:

No. It comes together with no sign of intelligence at all.

Crying rock wrote:

“…constructing the membranes by the Langmiur-Blodgett technique…â€Â

“…amino acid residue selected from a group …â€Â

“…amino acid or dipeptide residue selected from a group…â€Â

“…residue selected from a group…â€Â

“…amino acid residue selected from a group…â€Â

“…amino acid or dipeptide residue selected from a group…â€Â

“…process for the preparation of a compound of formula…â€Â

“…comprises one or more inserted light-driven proteins and which can act as solar cell …â€Â

“â€ess for the production of the synthetic cell membrane…â€Â

“…introducing a substrate…â€Â

“…activating the peptide…â€Â

“… coupling the peptide to said lipid residues…â€Â

“…adding liposomes…â€Â

“…an inserted membrane protein…â€Â

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5962638/claims.html

synthetic- Produced artificially, especially in a laboratory or other man-made environment.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/synthetic

 

[Barbarian]

Not the artificial one. The natural one.


Phospholipid bilayer
Spontaneously assemble
to form closed bilayers

Phospholipid bilayers
spontaneously seal to form
closed compartments

The two faces of a
membrane (cytosolic and exoplasmic) are
asymmetrical in lipid and protein composition
http://www.uta.edu/biology/wilk/classno ... branes.pdf

 

[Crying Rock]

Not the artificial one. The natural one.

The membranes of living organisms that can't be reproduced by the most intelligent chemical engineers in the world?

 

[Barbarian]

The membranes of living organisms that can't be reproduced by the most intelligent chemical engineers in the world?

The most primitive ones, yes. As you read, you just take these phospholipids, put them in water, and they form a bilayer, which then forms vesicles.

BTW, it is true that an even simpler cell membrane exists. Archaea have a monolayer, with a simpler chemical composition. In essence, it's a polar molecule with two polar heads, which greatly improves the stability of the membrane in very harsh environments.

The archaea are much different than bacteria or eukaryotes, and live mainly in places were conditions are similar to that of the early earth. So that's a bit more evidence that ID has it wrong. The earliest known organisms have even simpler membranes.

And as you see, biologists are now finding ways to produce more evolved membranes.

 

[Crying Rock]

Crying Rock wrote:

The membranes of living organisms that can't be reproduced by the most intelligent chemical engineers in the world?

And as you see, biologists are now finding ways to produce more evolved membranes.

And biologists = intelligence.

 

[Barbarian]

And biologists = intelligence.

Yep. We can eventually figure out how nature does it, and copy. Turns out that evolutionary processes are more efficient than design.

But why wouldn't they be? "Design" is what we do. Nature is what God does.

 

[Crying Rock]

And biologists = intelligence.

"Design" is what we do. Nature is what God does.

Then we're just arguing semantics. What your calling God's nature is what I refer to as God's

design.

At least we agree God is behind it all.

I'll leave it at that.

I think we've beaten this issue to death.

 

[Barbarian]

Then we're just arguing semantics. What your calling God's nature is what I refer to as God's
design.

Being a Christian, I'm unwilling to demote God to "designer."