New Covenant

[thessalonian]

One other note. No AV we do not wish to be Jews. The Jews sacrificed animals. These of course never took away sin. They simply forshadowed the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice of the Lamb of God who takes away all sin. You distort the New Covenant because you cannot reconcile James with Paul. Yet you ignore verses like Romans 2:4-8. We are not "saved" by works as in they do not make us Christians and cleanse us of our sin. But to be saved there must be works in our lives or Romans 2:4-8 which is rendered void as are the words of Jesus in the Gospels that you call another gospel with your friend terral.

 

[thessalonian]

One other note. No AV we do not wish to be Jews. The Jews sacrificed animals. These of course never took away sin. They simply forshadowed the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice of the Lamb of God who takes away all sin. You distort the New Covenant because you cannot reconcile James with Paul. Yet you ignore verses like Romans 2:4-8. We are not "saved" by works as in they do not make us Christians and cleanse us of our sin. But to be saved there must be works in our lives or Romans 2:4-8 which is rendered void as are the words of Jesus in the Gospels that you call another gospel with your friend terral.

 

[thessalonian]

double debug post

 

[cj]

This is a straw man. The issue is not whether we have an all encompassing knowledge of the truth. The issue is whether we can be taught the fullness of the truth and whether we can tell if something is truth or error. Quite clearly the Bible says yes to both of these. "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". "Those who worship me MUST worship in spirit and in truth". "You know the truth". Shall I quote more.

I wonder Thess, did you study something to come to know what a cool sea breeze feels like?


Its a very sad thing when a believer equates intimate oneness with learnt knowledge.

But, as we see a believer falling into this error if we are in our spirit we can know the truth of their ways.


In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

That's a nice little speach AV. Now can you tell me why Paul says "ALL SCRIPTURE is useful for correction....". Why is it in the context of the old testament:

Folks - you're killing me here. The scriptures say:

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Notice the first thing scripture is for is doctrine. After the doctrine is there then the scriptures are for the rest.

Example - I can learn from the OT sacrifices but they are not doctrine for me today. Example - Numbers was not written to me but for me.


I read and believe all the scriptures and learn from them all - Rom. 15:4 but I do not doctrinally apply what is not doctrinally for me.

I do not know how I can be much clearer that this. You are assuming something about me that is not so. :o

 

[AVBunyan]

But to be saved there must be works in our lives

Why not re-phrase by saying, "If one is saved then there will be works in their life." There is a difference.

God bless 8-)

 

[thessalonian]

Notice the first thing scripture is for is doctrine.

Oh, that makes it better. NOT! What doctrine do you support with OT scriptures AV. Am I missing something here. You have nullified the word of God with your dispensationalists theology. Your word splitting is a distinction without a difference that does nothing to refute what I have said and what I think.

I am afraid you are being killed. Spiritually. That isn't funny.

 

[Terral]

The New Covenant Has NOTHING To Do With Christians

Hi Wavy:

Thank you for starting this thread. The first reading of your Opening Post (OP) was laborious and tedious at best. The best OP’s clearly state your hypothesis in an opening thesis statement, which is hard to select from the entire body of your work. However, the highlights of your beliefs expressed here ‘appears’ to be that Christians today are to keep Mosaic Law, which is most certainly a mountain of hogwash. You wrote:

Wavy >> A New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) It's really heartbreaking that people use this scripture to disprove true torah keeping, when in fact, it's saying just the opposite. This may be insightful to you. Let's take a look: Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith יהוה, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

This verse is quoted in Hebrews 8:8 concerning the New Covenant the Lord God will make with Israel and Judah, which has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the members of the “body of Christ.†Ephesians 4:12. Paul wrote letters to the New Testament churches like the Colossians and Thessalonians without quoting one verse of the Old Testament. Many fail to realize that the last time Paul’s says “As it is written†to quote an OT prophet was in Galatians 4:27. From there to Philemon you must strain to even find where Paul uses bits of phrases from the OT in his letters to the Gentile dominant “body of Christ.†You continue, saying,

Wavy >> I want to stop here. This verse is very important. Sadly, the only words that are noticed by people in this verse are usually "new covenant". That's all people see, and then some assume this automatically connotes a different torah where we don't have to keep it the "old way".

What makes you believe for one instant that one syllable from the mouth of God is less important than any other? The supposition you are trying to make has nothing to do with anything written in Jeremiah or anything from the entire Old Testament. Has Christ died for anyone in Jeremiah anything? No! Christ is still the ‘end of the Law’ for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4) our gospel. Paul teaches that even keeping the Sabbath is a mere ‘shadow’ (Colossians 2:16-17) of things to come for the members of Christ’s body.

The key to understanding ‘the truth’ about the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8) is that these things have NOTHING whatsoever to do with those hearing (Romans 10:17) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) Paul’s “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message. Think about these things very clearly with your Bible open and the point will become bright as day. Israel and Judah are tribes in this earth on this planet and in the Promised Land (Genesis 15:18). Those of us “IN†Christ Jesus are seated “IN†Him (Ephesians 2:6) even now, which is why Paul says our citizenship is in heaven (Philippians 3:20). You were crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20) and God has already raised you up with Him (Colossians 3:1), so that your very life is hidden with Christ “IN†God (Colossians 3:3). We anticipate being ‘caught up’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17 *), when the ‘day of the Lord’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) is at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2) to forever be with the Lord*. Christ cannot make any ‘New Covenant’ with those already “IN†His Body. That is for those still trying to become “one†with Him through this same Covenant made with others. Paul’s gospel became God’s tool for baptizing us into the one body (1 Corinthians 12:13, which is “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 12:27). How much nearer can you come to Christ if you are “IN†Him already? That concept is not even part of the vocabulary of those already “IN†Christ Jesus. Anyone teaching this “New Covenant†doctrine ‘for Christians’ is trying to sell you a way of earning what God has already given us for free (Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8-9). They teach every form of "Legalism" and be careful, because their teachings will put your eye out.

Waxy >> “But there is something very important in this verse. There are two parties mentioned here: the house of Judah and the house of Israel. Notice how both divided houses are distinguished here from each other, as will be seen as significant later. This also rebukes any doctrine that "gentiles" as a separate entity from Israel as Yahweh's people are part of this covenant. Let us not add to the Word when the Word says no such thing. Those from the nations/gentiles can become a part of this covenant through Messiah, but as such, they are considered Israel.â€Â

Your teaching here becomes distorted and even convoluted, as you are trying to convict the reader while introducing new information simultaneously. Israel and Judah are mentioned separately, because the ‘prince’ is given a portion (Ezekiel 45:7, Ezekiel 48:21) like the twelve tribes (Judah’s one portion = Ezekiel 48:7) and he and his seed are descended from Judah. The Lord God is rebuilding the ‘tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16-18), and Ezekiel sees David on the throne during this time (Ezekiel 34:21-25). None of that has anything whatsoever to do with the members of Christ’s body in the world today; ZERO. We represent the mystery church (Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24-27) that NONE of the OT prophets were given to see. NEVER allow anyone to try and deceive you into believing that those for whom Christ died are under Mosaic Law! What does Paul teach ‘to’ you?

“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one "IN" Christ Jesus.†Galatians 3:23-28.

The ‘tutor’ here is Mosaic Law that the Lord God (Jesus Christ of OT = Malachi 3:1) used to draw Israel to Himself. If you have believed our gospel, then the ‘faith of Jesus’ (Romans 3:26) is already your possession and “Christ in you†(Colossians 1:27) is already a reality. You have already been justified by faith and you are NO LONGER under Mosaic Law. If you have truly believed that Jesus is Lord AND that God has raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9), then you have been ‘baptized into Christ’ and already clothed with Him. That means when God looks at you He sees His Only Begotten Son and there is NO greater Eternal Security that THAT. There is no such thing a Jew OR Greek, or a male OR female “IN†Christ Jesus where you are already “ONE†with all yorothers to have believed the gospel for the past 2000 years. This “New Covenant†is for ISRAEL and those seeking to come to the Lord God through THEIR OWN WORKS (James 2:24). When anyone tries to sell you this “New Covenant†Doctrine saying that you are under the Law, then tell them “No thank you, because I am already “IN†Christ Jesus through obedience to the Gospel.â€Â

Thank you for starting this thread and for this opportunity to show the difference,

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

 

[thessalonian]

But to be saved there must be works in our lives

Why not re-phrase by saying, "If one is saved then there will be works in their life." There is a difference.

God bless 8-)

The difference is that I don't hold to your OSAS theology which says that if you don't do anything what difference does it make? Further the works are not automatic and finally they are motivated by the grace of God. Grace is not irresistable and if one resists grace he will "FALL" from it. Falling from grace has severe eternal consequences. It's called eternal damnation. By the way do you agree with Mr. Terral that John 3:16 and 10:28 when used for ES or OSAS are perversions of scripture? Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[AVBunyan]

The difference is that I don't hold to your OSAS theology which says that if you don't do anything what difference does it make?

No, Thess - you don't hold to my view of justification - one's view of justification determines his view on eternal security. Your view on justification is wrong.

By the way - I learn towards that if a person has no good works or fruit then there was most likely never a real work of regeneration.

I believe a regenerated person will show forth good works and fruit.

God bless 8-)

 

[thessalonian]

No, Thess - you don't hold to my view of justification - one's view of justification determines his view on eternal security. Your view on justification is wrong.

Back at ya. : Justification is by grace alone. Your theology says the power of God working in and through us (eph 3:20,21, that book you say we all need) has no power at all.

Do you agree with Terral that John 3:16 and John 10:28 should not be used to justify the OSAS/ES doctrines?

Thanks

 

[AVBunyan]

Back at ya. : Justification is by grace alone.

You do not believe grace alone if you believe one can be in grace (saved I prsesume?) and then you can fall from grace. I've read your posts - You use all the key words, grace, faith, Christ, etc. but when it gets right down to it Thess is trusting Thess to either do right or keep from doing wrong so you won't "fall from grace". Works - this is not grace alone.

God bless

 

[wavy]

Re: The New Covenant Has NOTHING To Do With Christians

This verse is quoted in Hebrews 8:8 concerning the New Covenant the Lord God will make with Israel and Judah, which has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the members of the “body of Christ.â€Â

Well, you are basing this argument off of your preconceived views of these "two churches/two gospels", as you make clear in your thread on this subject.

But judging what I say against your dogma does not make me wrong, sorry to say.

Paul wrote letters to the New Testament churches like the Colossians and Thessalonians without quoting one verse of the Old Testament.

Colossians 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Same terminology Messiah uses in Matthew 15 and Mark 7, indicating he is referencing Isaiah 29:13.

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

^Isaiah 59:17.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul making full use of the remez/hint levels of Hebraic understanding, alluding to Ezekiel 28:2 and Daniel 11:36.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

^Isaiah 11:4 (the word for "spirit" and "breath" being the same).

If Paul is not directly quoting "OT" scripture, he is certainly basing his doctrine firmly upon it.

Many fail to realize that the last time Paul’s says “As it is written†to quote an OT prophet was in Galatians 4:27. From there to Philemon you must strain to even find where Paul uses bits of phrases from the OT in his letters to the Gentile dominant “body of Christ.â€Â

Nevertheless, he does quote them. He does not have to say "it is written". He expected his students to know the scripture.

Example:

Ephesians 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Isaiah 57:19. These expressions are used in several places in the Tanakc referring to exiled Israel (who is "afar off") and Jewish Israel (those who are "near/nigh"). This ties into exactly what "mystery" Paul speaks of here concerning the nations and the ekklesia and why he seems to wrongly and out of context apply scripture to them that applies to Israel. We won't get into this, as I have a different explanation of what this "mystery" is, other than the pressupposed idea that it was the building of a separate entity "church", which you promote.

But to throw something interesting into this discussion, it is seen from Ephesians 6:2-3 that Paul quoted Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16, the "first commandment with promise" . He says the Ephesians will have a long life on the land (word "earth" here should be properly rendered "land" if you look it up in the Strong's, keep the quote consistent with the scripture, and realize it is the same word used for "land" in the LXX as it was given to Israel). This proves the Ephesians' heritage.

What makes you believe for one instant that one syllable from the mouth of God is less important than any other?

I never implied this. It must be a misunderstanding on your part.

The supposition you are trying to make has nothing to do with anything written in Jeremiah or anything from the entire Old Testament. Has Christ died for anyone in Jeremiah anything? No! Christ is still the ‘end of the Law’ for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4) our gospel. Paul teaches that even keeping the Sabbath is a mere ‘shadow’ (Colossians 2:16-17) of things to come for the members of Christ’s body.

I don't quite grasp what you are trying to say here, but it seems to be based off of the accusation that I believe some of Yahweh's Word is less important than other parts...

Anyway, Christ did die for those in Jeremiah. This is what the book of Hebrews reveals. I also suspect that you are using Romans 10:4 to say that the torah is "done away with" or that Messiah "ended" it. That is a misunderstanding of the word telos used here and a distortion of context (also, if it is used in this way, a contradiction of Romans 3:31 among others).

As far as Colossians, I have a whole study on that we can get into separately and privately if you want to.

The key to understanding ‘the truth’ about the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8) is that these things have NOTHING whatsoever to do with those hearing (Romans 10:17) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) Paul’s “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message.

Well, you haven't proven this with scripture...

Christ cannot make any ‘New Covenant’ with those already “IN†His Body. That is for those still trying to become “one†with Him through this same Covenant made with others.

I don't exactly see overwhelming scriptural evidence for these claims...

Paul’s gospel became God’s tool for baptizing us into the one body (1 Corinthians 12:13, which is “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 12:27).

I want to stop here and note that Paul identifies the Corinthians as Israelites by saying that the children of Israel in the wilderness with Moses were, as he said, "our fathers".

This would be weak argument, as some have accused me, only if he said some one like Abraham, but he said the ones who passed through the sea. He can't mean all the children of Israel with Moses were "spiritual fathers". Many of them were unbelieving and perished in the wilderness...

How much nearer can you come to Christ if you are “IN†Him already? That concept is not even part of the vocabulary of those already “IN†Christ Jesus. Anyone teaching this “New Covenant†doctrine ‘for Christians’ is trying to sell you a way of earning what God has already given us for free (Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8-9). They teach every form of "Legalism" and be careful, because their teachings will put your eye out.

Again, no solid scriptural evidence. This is just an opinion based on opinion about scripture.

Israel and Judah are mentioned separately, because the ‘prince’ is given a portion (Ezekiel 45:7, Ezekiel 48:21) like the twelve tribes (Judah’s one portion = Ezekiel 48:7) and he and his seed are descended from Judah.

I see this as very vague. There is absolutely no reservation for these Ezekiel passages having anything to do with the divided houses of Israel in Jeremiah 31 that I can see. It looks more like Numbers 2 and 3. But I'll continue reading what you have to say..

The Lord God is rebuilding the ‘tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16-18), and Ezekiel sees David on the throne during this time (Ezekiel 34:21-25). None of that has anything whatsoever to do with the members of Christ’s body in the world today; ZERO. We represent the mystery church (Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24-27) that NONE of the OT prophets were given to see. NEVER allow anyone to try and deceive you into believing that those for whom Christ died are under Mosaic Law! What does Paul teach ‘to’ you?

Nothing in Ephesians or Colossians promotes a separate entity "mystery church". This phrase is not even in scripture. He speaks of a mystery concerning Messiah and the ekklesia but does not say the "church" is a mystery. The nature of his mission is the "mystery". We can talk about this some other time...

And, maybe the prophets did not see it themselves, but they indeed wrote about whatever this mystery is (Romans 16:25-26) which I can offer a different explanation of what it is other than presupposing a "mystery church".

[quote:57c58]“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one "IN" Christ Jesus.†Galatians 3:23-28.

The ‘tutor’ here is Mosaic Law that the Lord God (Jesus Christ of OT = Malachi 3:1) used to draw Israel to Himself. If you have believed our gospel, then the ‘faith of Jesus’ (Romans 3:26) is already your possession and “Christ in you†(Colossians 1:27) is already a reality. You have already been justified by faith and you are NO LONGER under Mosaic Law. If you have truly believed that Jesus is Lord AND that God has raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9), then you have been ‘baptized into Christ’ and already clothed with Him. That means when God looks at you He sees His Only Begotten Son and there is NO greater Eternal Security that THAT. There is no such thing a Jew OR Greek, or a male OR female “IN†Christ Jesus where you are already “ONE†with all your brothers to have believed the gospel for the past 2000 years. This “New Covenant†is for ISRAEL and those seeking to come to the Lord God through THEIR OWN WORKS (James 2:24). When anyone tries to sell you this “New Covenant†Doctrine saying that you are under the Law, then tell them “No thank you, because I am already “IN†Christ Jesus through obedience to the Gospel.†[/quote:57c58]

Well, we won't get into Galatians right now, but you are judging me off of what you already believe without concrete proof that it is right...

You are basically applying scriptures incorrectly, imo. I see you quote James here that the new covenant is for those who wish to do their own works (not in scripture however, and nothing in James implies this; you superimposed it). This comes from not knowing how to reconcile James with Paul.

So I'll stop right here, because I can tell I'd be typing all night and we'd be talking for a LONG time only to reach...yes, fruitlessness and more hostility towards each other because of different views.

Peace and love in ha Mashiach Yahshua.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

: :angel: :P :D 8-) :evil: :-? :o :roll: :fadein: 8-) WEEEEE!
Just thought you people might need a break!!! PEACE

 

[wavy]

thanx, lol. you are right of course. : :-D

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Don't worry them 2 sticks will be joined 1 day!

 

[thessalonian]

Back at ya. : Justification is by grace alone.

You do not believe grace alone if you believe one can be in grace (saved I prsesume?) and then you can fall from grace. I've read your posts - You use all the key words, grace, faith, Christ, etc. but when it gets right down to it Thess is trusting Thess to either do right or keep from doing wrong so you won't "fall from grace". Works - this is not grace alone.

God bless

No, I'm not trusting in me to do anything right so that I won't fall from grace. Left to myself without grace I would fall from it and you must admit that without grace you would not be in grace. :o It's pretty obvious. When I walk by sight and not by faith, I produce nothing. My life turns in to a mess and I hurt the people around me. When I walk on faith, trusting in Christ and his holy spirit to guide me I bring order to my family and to those I come in to contact with. I cannot produce 30, 60, or 100 fold without grace. The power of God working in me. But you separate works from grace. To do so means that we can produce 30, 60, or 100 fold on our own. Or is that the Gospel of the Kingdom preaching that you have buddied up with terral on. I have noticed that you don't often quote from the four Gospels. Sorry. Paul quite clearly states it in another manner in Eph 3:20, 21.

[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

This verse must hurt your ears. We can do grace by the grace of God and that grace working in us is powerful! It is not on our own so that we may boast. Twist it back to saying that I claim these works are my own that God performs in and through me. And bear false witness against me. Of course all will see your lie in print. :o So post away. :-D I also know that Romans 2:4-8 hurts your ears so I will post it as well again.

Romans 2
[4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
[5] But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Ya better have some works when you go to the great pearlys in the sky or they aren't going to open for ya dude. Sorry. This passage makes your faith alone, I can say "Lord, Lord" and get in because Jesus said that the Jews couldn't and Paul preached a different gospel nonsense, complete nonsense. You better move on the grace that God gives you dude. Don't resist.


Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

AV,

Seems you are only reading half my posts. Or is it that you are ignoring this question.

Do you agree with Terral that John 3:16 and John 10:28 should not be used to justify the OSAS/ES doctrines?

It has it's own post now. Give us an answer. Thanks.

 

[thessalonian]

By the way AV, I think there is a hugely mistaken view of grace in Protestantism. For protestants it seems to me, grace is God being nice and forgetting everything. That's all well and good and God does forgive us, not because we deserve it but because he loves us. But grace is more than just God being nice. Grace moves the world. If it did not then things would not turn out okay in the end. If grace were only a part of the lives of true Christians then before that true Christian became true Christian God would have no part of moving him toward Christ. It would mean that a man could provide for himself and not have any need to thank God for the food and the clothes and the roof over his head. Quite to the contrary, this is exactly why those who are not Christians may be found guilty. They neglect God almighty who by grace, through them, gives them the abilities and means to do these things. This is called natural grace and it is for all men. It also brings men closer to God by helping them to recognize him in nature. The eye that is so complex, the beauty of the butterfly or the mountain is God speaking to man that he exists. This is grace bringing men to God. There is also God acting directly on the man, speaking to him truths that move him closer to God. This is called actual grace. But it is not within a man yet, such that he is among the saved. It is external. It is when the grace of God becomes internal, i.e. sanctifying grace, that man is cleansed of his sin and actually becomes a new creation in Christ, a friend of God, a son of God able to do good. This grace in man produces habitual grace whereby we do good naturally and out of habit rather than continue in sin out of habit. So grace is not just God being nice. It is God actually bringing about change in the world. It is the Holy Spirit moving upon the earth, drawing men near to him. It is the people we run in to in our lives that give us those words we need to hear to draw us toward him, for they are moved by grace. It is that thought that we have as we look at a flower that tells us that such beauty did not come out of chaos. I see people on this board struggling with the issue of how a man can come to Christ and be saved if he has no faith and then has faith. Did he get the faith by himself such that he can claim it. No. But then that means that he was recieving the grace of God. But that means that he was recieving grace before faith and that simply can't be. Or can it.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. No, I'm not trusting in me to do anything right so that I won't fall from grace.

2. Eph 3:20, 21.

3. Romans 2

4. Ya better have some works when you go to the great pearlys in the sky or they aren't going to open for ya dude.

Semantics - all semantics - just add the word grace and you think you are trusting grace - you are trusting you.

1. Then explain fall from grace - how does one fall from grace? Give me an example of one falling from grace - what does he have to do or not to do?

2. Nothing there about works and salvation. Ephesians talks of works that the saint is called unto good works but those works have no bearing on justification - works are fruits of salvation not the basis of salvation.

3. Better check your context - Paul is building a case here and is way back prior to Calvary and in someplaces before the law was even given so you are on shakey ground.

4. So there you have - you are depended on your works. You are waiting on getting to the pearly gates and then you will be judged according to what you carry with you? That is what you just said! :o

I am already redeemed, sealed, regenerated, justified, an adopted son, sanctified, glorified, seated in the heaveny places, saved, forgiven (past and future sins) - my position in Christ is perfect right this very moment and cannot be undone by me. Can you say the same?

You are waiting on death and then the pearly gates to be judged for your entrance. Your judgement will be a future one - my was a past judgment - already done.

I'm already there and in glory in Christ. I've already been judged and God has delcared me righteous and forgiven based upon the merits of Jesus Chist and his work at cavlary.

God bless