New Covenant

[thessalonian]

1. No, I'm not trusting in me to do anything right so that I won't fall from grace.

2. Eph 3:20, 21.

3. Romans 2

4. Ya better have some works when you go to the great pearlys in the sky or they aren't going to open for ya dude.

Semantics - all semantics - just add the word grace and you think you are trusting grace - you are trusting you.

Twist away my friend. There is a clear distinction in what I am saying. A man can build a skyscraper to heaven theoretically, fill it with poor, and still go to hell. You say I believe he would go to heaven or at least that is what your "semantics" chide implies. It is not my fault you cannot see the difference.

[quote:b102b]1. Then explain fall from grace - how does one fall from grace? Give me an example of one falling from grace - what does he have to do or not to do?

In choosing sin men make a mockery out of Christ's crusifixion. Therefore we must acknowledge our sin before God and repent (by his grace). If we do not we slide deeper and deeper in to sin, telling him we do not wish to have him reside in us, until eventually he will grant our wish. Sin is what causes our fall from grace my friend. That is the severe error of OSAS. It neglects the fact that Jesus Christ came to this earth to free us from sin. It removes the focus on sin and striving by his grace for holiness "be perfect as I am perfect" that OSAS so neglects. I am not saying it is completely ignored but it is neglected.

"2. Nothing there about works and salvation. Ephesians talks of works that the saint is called unto good works but those works have no bearing on justification - works are fruits of salvation not the basis of salvation."

What you do here is isolate ephesians such that romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25 have no bearing on it. Works do not justify. That is quite true and I never said they did. But one who is doing good is not doing evil. Thus the justification and sanctification taking place in him by the power of God are more effective. I do agree they are the fruit and not the cause, except that doing good means we are not doing evil and thererfore sliding. But you say they have no power. Would you even claim they have a part in our sanctification? Doudtful.

3. Better check your context - Paul is building a case here and is way back prior to Calvary and in someplaces before the law was even given so you are on shakey ground.

10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Well at least your admitting it says what it says. So there were Gentiles doing good before Calvary? Isn't this verse spoken to the Romans? Gentils. Sorry, I don't by the two kingdoms nonsense. Please answer my question above about John 3:16 and John 10:28. Thanks.

4. So there you have - you are depended on your works. You are waiting on getting to the pearly gates and then you will be judged according to what you carry with you? That is what you just said! :o

[/quote:b102b]

No. I am depending in God working in me. Without him and his grace I can do no good. Twist it some more. Deny Romans 2:4-8. Write it out of your bible like you do the four Gospels which I don't ever recall seeing you quote. Ignore Psalms and Proverbs. Make void the word of God with your false Gospel.

 

[Terral]

We are Under Grace And NOT Under Mosaic Law

Hi Wavy:

Thank you for writing.

Terral Original >> This verse is quoted in Hebrews 8:8 concerning the New Covenant the Lord God will make with Israel and Judah, which has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the members of the “body of Christ.â€Â

Wavy >> Well, you are basing this argument off of your preconceived views of these "two churches/two gospels", as you make clear in your thread on this subject. But judging what I say against your dogma does not make me wrong, sorry to say.

Why “quote me >>†to ramble about something else? This topic is far too easy to understand. The New Covenant has everything to do with the houses of ISRAEL AND JUDAH. Your Opening Post above is all over the map and represents incoherent and meaningless attempts to bring those for whom Christ died back under Mosaic Law. Paul makes it clear that we are under grace and NOT under law (Romans 6:14). We have been saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works. Ephesians 2:8-9. We have been justified by faith apart from works (Romans 4:4-6). That does NOT include being brought back under Mosaic Law, especially if you are a Gentile “without the Law†(Romans 2:14-15) from the beginning. Nothing in you much too long post here is going to change any of that, sorry to say . . .

Terral Original >> Paul wrote letters to the New Testament churches like the Colossians and Thessalonians without quoting one verse of the Old Testament.

Wavy >> Colossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men? Same terminology Messiah uses in Matthew 15 and Mark 7, indicating he is referencing Isaiah 29:13. (snip)

Heh . . . “The same terminology?†What kind of nonsense is that? We see the same ‘terminology’ about God, the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 and in the New Testament. That does not place everybody in the bible within the same ‘dispensation.’ Those believing our gospel for today (Christ and Him crucified = 1 Corinthians 2:2) are part of the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) given to Paul for us. Christ is speaking ‘to’ Israel only in the Four Gospels (Matthew 15:24) like Paul addressing those for whom He died in his Epistles. You sir do NOT know the difference, which is why your interpretations are indeed errant, wayward and dead wrong.

Wavy >> If Paul is not directly quoting "OT" scripture, he is certainly basing his doctrine firmly upon it.

Please . . . Paul teaches the same ‘grace’ doctrine to everyone believing our gospel in all his Epistles. He even teaches that NO ONE is our judge about keeping the Sabbath, because those are mere ‘shadows’ (Colossians 2:16-17) of things to come. Where do you find that kind of teaching to Israel in the Old Testament? Get real . . .

Terral Original >> Many fail to realize that the last time Paul’s says “As it is written†to quote an OT prophet was in Galatians 4:27. From there to Philemon you must strain to even find where Paul uses bits of phrases from the OT in his letters to the Gentile dominant “body of Christ.â€Â

Wavy >> Nevertheless, he does quote them. He does not have to say "it is written". He expected his students to know the scripture. (snip)

Bit’s and pieces . . . that was my point . . . Paul is an educated Pharisee with more Old Testament Scriptural training than all the other NT writers combined. We should expect his work to contain idiomatic expressions from the Old Testament. That changes NOTHING about what he taught as ‘sound doctrine’ (1 Timothy 4:6, 2 Timothy 4:3) that is contrary and directly opposes Mosaic Law. Paul quoted the prophets to the Corinthians, but taught them, saying,

“Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake; “For the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains†(Psalm 24:1). If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake.†1 Corinthians 10:25-27.

Suppose a Gentile invites a Jew in the Old Testament to dinner and the main course is pig’s feet and ham hocks? Would he obey Mosaic Law by “eating anything that is set before you without asking questions?†Paul uses Psalm 24:1 to prove beyond all doubt that even believing Jews today are just fine eating anything set before them AND even at the house of unbelievers. Let’s see you try to prove your case for obeying Mosaic Law from these verses. Good Luck . . .

Wavy >> Isaiah 57:19. These expressions are used in several places in the Tanakc referring to exiled Israel (who is "afar off") and Jewish Israel (those who are "near/nigh"). This ties into exactly what "mystery" Paul speaks of here concerning the nations and the ekklesia and why he seems to wrongly and out of context apply scripture to them that applies to Israel.

Holy Molies . . . Your notion that certain ‘expressions’ here and there equate to “Paul is teaching us to obey Mosaic Law†is just foolishness. I can hardly believe you are trying to pass this off as anything Scriptural for believing Christians today. Christ is the “END OF THE LAW†for righteousness to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES.†Romans 10:4. If you are a believer in our Gospel to become an active participant in Christ’s death, burial and resurrection (Galatians 2:20 = crucified with Christ), then you are NOT under the tutor (Galatians 3:23-25) of Mosaic Law . . . PERIOD.

Wavy >> We won't get into this, as I have a different explanation of what this "mystery" is, other than the pressupposed idea that it was the building of a separate entity "church", which you promote.

Your belief system does not even acknowledge that any ‘mystery’ (Ephesians 5:32) “His body†Church (Colossians 1:24) even exists. That too is more nonsense that is beyond me how anyone can believe that way. Of course, you are free to believe anything you like, even if those things have no basis in Biblical Fact.

Wavy >> But to throw something interesting into this discussion, it is seen from Ephesians 6:2-3 that Paul quoted Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16, the "first commandment with promise" . He says the Ephesians will have a long life on the land (word "earth" here should be properly rendered "land" if you look it up in the Strong's, keep the quote consistent with the scripture, and realize it is the same word used for "land" in the LXX as it was given to Israel). This proves the Ephesians' heritage.

You are kidding . . . right? Paul just taught these Ephesians that they have been seated in the heavenly places “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6-7) for the ‘ages to come.’ He told them that God put “all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him (Christ) as Head over all things to THE CHURCH.†Ephesians 1:22. He told these same Ephesians that “the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known THROUGH THE CHURCH to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places†(Ephesians 3:10). And you want us to believe that these same Ephesians have a heritage with Israel ON THE LAND? Heh . . . Now that is funny. The Romans are members to the “body†(Romans 12:4-5) of Christ and the Corinthians are members of the same “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 12:27) and the Ephesians are members of the ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12), just like the Colossians (Colossians 1:24) and every other church Paul addresses in his Epistles. Paul is telling all of them and us that our citizenship is IN HEAVEN (Philippians 3:20) and that we are to keep our eyes fixed on things above where Christ is at the right hand of God (Colossians 3:1-4).

Your Legalistic mumbo jumbo does not mean anything and quite frankly I can see no reason to continue discourse with someone so far out in left field that his seat is somewhere in the bleachers; if not across the street someplace. Anyone following your teachings is FAR beyond the reach of any lifeline this bible thumper can throw them.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[wavy]

Well, I was going to offer my own refutation of the things you said above.

But I feel things are getting to hostile. I meant no offense.

Peace,

Eric

 

[cj]

Re: We are Under Grace And NOT Under Mosaic Law

Your Legalistic mumbo jumbo does not mean anything and quite frankly I can see no reason to continue discourse with someone so far out in left field that his seat is somewhere in the bleachers; if not across the street someplace. Anyone following your teachings is FAR beyond the reach of any lifeline this bible thumper can throw them.

Just up the road from me is a mumbo-jumbo teacher.

Man does he know where to find everything in the bible.

Red highlighter, green highlighter, yellow highlighter,..... you name it he knows it, and where to find it, and has it already highlighted.

But try discussing just one series of verse that articulate a single thought of God,.... sorry, no can do, he needs to jump to this scripture and that scripture, and this one over here and that one over there. And then of course he needs to "explain" the difference between the tribes, ask if you eat meat and worship on Saturday or Sunday.

I've tried on many a day, but the spirit simply couldn't continue. Sometimes it is just necessary to simply withdraw.

I still think dearly about him and have a desire to reach him, but we need to be able to discern when the stiff-neckedness produced out of the same human corruption that God spoke of regarding the Jews just cannot be overcome with the speaking of the truth alone. Jesus even said this.


In love,
cj

 

[Terral]

Hi CJ:

Thank you for writing.

CJ >> Just up the road from me is a mumbo-jumbo teacher. Man does he know where to find everything in the bible. Red highlighter, green highlighter, yellow highlighter,..... you name it he knows it, and where to find it, and has it already highlighted . . .

Please . . . Like what your teacher says down the road means something . . . One of these days you will actually “quote >>†something from the discussion and offer credible testimony using Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15. Every time I am notified that you have responded to one of my posts, then your reply is a few sentences of meaningless dribble. Wavy is trying to drag those for whom Christ died back under Mosaic Law and you are taking his side in this thread. I cannot quote from your attempts to apply Scripture to anything in this discussion, because you refuse to use any in your posts. Do you teach that the “New Covenant†has application to our ‘His body’ Church (Colossians 1:24) of the Pauline Epistles? If so, then please explain how that works. Do you also feel like Wavy here that believers in our gospel today are under Mosaic Law? If so, then where does Paul ever teach that?

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[cj]

Terral,.... again, take some time before you respond to the posts of others in a way that may make you look silly.

I was actually agreeing with you, but I guess you have become somewhat offended by our little confrontation on another board.

Please . . . Like what your teacher says down the road means something . . .

Read it again,... I was actually making fun of the person who believes he is a teacher of the bible.

He's not my teacher, so I don't know where you get that from.

One of these days you will actually “quote >>†something from the discussion and offer credible testimony using Scripture.

Young saint, I can quote scripture with the best of them, but the bible tells us not to cast pearls before swine, meaning, if I were to quote you scripture, because of your poor scriptural understanding you would be like the Pharisees who stood next to God and called Him of Satan.

When I see that a believer is young in understanding of the truth I go to where they are and beging with them at that point.

You simply are not ready for the meat of the scriptures.

2 Timothy 2:15. Every time I am notified that you have responded to one of my posts, then your reply is a few sentences of meaningless dribble.

What does darkness have with light. You call what I write dribble, so what? What I write test your understanding, and when you fail to respond in the Spirit I know that I must come a little lower in order to reach you.

My purpose isn't to have "reasoning sessions" with you, my purpose is to draw you out of the darkness you're choosing to be in.

Just the fact that you can't grasp this basic ministry principle is evidence that you are weak in scriptural understanding.

Wavy is trying to drag those for whom Christ died back under Mosaic Law and you are taking his side in this thread.

You're funny.

I tell you what young saint, why not ask Wavy how much of a supporter of his I am,.... then get back to me.

I cannot quote from your attempts to apply Scripture to anything in this discussion, because you refuse to use any in your posts.

Anything you have to say about scripture would be erroneous because you are drawing from the wrong source.

Do you teach that the “New Covenant†has application to our ‘His body’ Church (Colossians 1:24) of the Pauline Epistles?

The reality of the new covenant of God manifests itself as the Church.

By your question seriously I doubt you know what the new covenant actually is.

If so, then please explain how that works.

It works according to the principle of life and is for the economy of God.

Did you get that?

Do you also feel like Wavy here that believers in our gospel today are under Mosaic Law?

Terral, go read some of my posts and then get back to me on that.

If so, then where does Paul ever teach that?

See above.



Terral, in all love, you're not reading very clearly what others write. Don't be so quick to write down your responses, take your time, and even limit yourself, meaning, take a day or two off before you respond.

Its okay, we're not going anywhere. And by being slow to respond you give the Spirit in you more time to correct whatever needs to be corrected in your thinking.

Understand this, writing on these boards is as much a learning experience for the writer as it is for the reader.

God didn't bring you here to teacher others, He brought you here to teach you something and have you grow in Him.

And it is as you grow in Him you will express Him more and more in your writing to others, and they in turn will grow as a result of your experience with Him.

This is the principle that underpins His building of the Church.

You grow individually, I grow individually,... and in Christ this growth becomes corporate oneness and thus the Church is built up.


In love,
cj

 

[Terral]

Now I See Why We Have Ignore Buttons

Hi CJ:

CJ >> You simply are not ready for the meat of the scriptures.

Heh . . . I cannot imagine more fruitless and ridiculous chatter than what comes from your posts. Congratulations on being the very first to impress upon me the importance of the ignore button. LOL . . . meat indeed . . . and from one who never uses Scripture, but is more impressed by the sound of his own rambling . . . GL with that . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[cj]

Re: Now I See Why We Have Ignore Buttons

Heh . . . I cannot imagine more fruitless and ridiculous chatter than what comes from your posts. Congratulations on being the very first to impress upon me the importance of the ignore button. LOL . . . meat indeed . . . and from one who never uses Scripture, but is more impressed by the sound of his own rambling . . . GL with that . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

What can I say.

You falsely accuse me of supporting the speaking of another and then call my setting you straight on the matter "ridiculous chatter."

Really Terral, all you did was prove my point.


As for my scripture quoting, again Terral, I'm not here to impress you with my ability to cut and paste.


Try to understand this,... you may quote scripture,..... but in-between the scripture you still need to speak your own words. And the words you speak add up to nonsense.


You seem to think that sticking some scripture in the middle of nonsense will make the nonsense appear sensible. It doesn't, it simply exposes your lack of scriptural understanding.


I speak from my stand in Christ, just as Paul spoke from His stand in Christ.

Or maybe you have not realized that Paul had no NT scriptures to quote when he was speaking to others.

When I feel it necessary I will quote scripture, but so far you have given me no reason to do so simply because your points are so weak and off-base with the truth.

Honestly Terral, nothing that you're speaking is scriptural, its just some wayward thoughts that have no grounding in Christ.

God says this sort of speaking is not even worthy of our responding to it.

And I'm not, I'm responding to others who might read your foolishness and take some of it to heart.

But I doubt you have any understanding of what I mean as I believe you to have little understanding of what ministry is.


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

Re: We are Under Grace And NOT Under Mosaic Law

...

 

[AVBunyan]

Why do folks spend so much time discussing doctrines and issues that have nothing doctrinally to do with saints in this age? :o

The average saint today is not even grounded in the basic doctrines (justification, etc.) and yet there are all these threads on doctrines that have no practical bearing on anything that will make the saint a more useful saint. :-?

Amazing - sad - a shame. :

God bless

 

[mutzrein]

Well said. And what could it possibly have to do with gentiles anyway?

 

[Terral]

Christians Are Under Grace And NOT Under Mosaic Law

Hi Wavy:

Wavy >> There is no need for this.

We agree. You are here doing everything to drag those for whom Christ died back under Mosaic Law, which is a form of modern day “Legalism.†The funny thing is that you select which parts of Mosaic Law to follow and disregard the rest. What does Paul teach on this very topic and even one of the Ten Commandments?

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.†Colossians 2:16-17.

“No one†means NO ONE is our judge in regard to any food or drink, Jewish festivals, new moons or even the keeping of the Sabbath, because ALL OF THESE THINGS are mere shadows things to come. Mosaic was the ‘tutor’ leading Israel TO Christ (Galatians 3:23-27), but even those under Mosaic Law were justified BY FAITH.

“But before faith came (guess who is still here Wavy), we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ (but some refuse to come), so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come (true believers in our gospel), we are NO LONGER under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through FAITH in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized INTO CHRISThave clothed yourselves with Christ.†Galatians 3:23-27.

How many ways does Paul have to tell you that BELIEVERS are NOT under the tutor any longer??? Those living under Mosaic Law (like you claim, but do not keep yourself) are living in the time BEFORE FAITH CAME. If your beliefs reflected that you have believed our gospel (and they most certainly do not), then Christ would be the END OF THE LAW for you also (Romans 10:4). Gentiles were NEVER under Mosaic Law from the beginning (Romans 2:14-15 = “without the Lawâ€Â) and you teach that somehow believing the Gospel places the “body of Christ†(Ephesians 4:12) back under BONDAGE. That is just foolishness and for some reason you are blinded (2 Thessalonians 2:11) from seeing this simple truth. Jews were trying to do the same thing to these Galatians and Paul warned them, saying,

“But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have IN Christ Jesus, in order to bring US (believers) into bondage. But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.†Galatians 2:4-5.

I am telling the saved Christians on this Board about the same “liberty which we have IN Christ Jesus,†but you are the one trying to sneak in and spy out that liberty and bring them under your bondage of LEGALISM. Paul refutes your Legalism, saying,

“For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was NOT through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law (Romans 6:14), there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law (kingdom 'bride' in John 3:29), but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all . . .â€Â. Romans 4:13-16.

Those hearing (Romans 10:17) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) our gospel for today are under grace and NOT under law (Romans 6:14). If you presumptions are correct (and they are all dead wrong), then those who are of the Law are heirs AND faith is made void AND the promise NULLIFIED. That is because the Law BRINGS ABOUT WRATH, but where there IS NO LAW (Christ’s body is not under the tutor), there is also NO VIOLATION. Every true believer has been crucified WITH CHRIST (Galatians 2:20) to be raised with Him also (Colossians 3:1), so that God has seated us “IN†the Heavenly places “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6-7). We HAVE DIED (Colossians 2:20) and our very lives are hidden with Christ IN GOD. Colossians 3:3.

All of your attempts to bring my brothers and sisters “IN†Christ Jesus under Mosaic Law are being exposed by the Light (Ephesians 5:13), as you continually attack the very fundamental teachings of Paul to everyone “IN†Christ Jesus. Your theology does not even recognize our mystery “church†(Ephesians 5:32) and the combined mumbo jumbo of all your Legalistic tactics amount to NOTHING. The very premise of everything you say in trying to drag others using your chains of Mosaic Law is flawed, which undermines most every syllable of your testimony on this Board. Anyone tricked into following your brand of Legalism is worthy to be called your disciple, because they added works of your Law to the gospel itself that must be accepted by faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The only reason your posts are not placed in the ‘ignore’ position is because someone needs to warn others about the dangerous Legalism you carry here.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

We are Under Grace And NOT Under Mosaic Law

Hi AV:

Thank you for writing on this thread. You wrote,

AV >> Why do folks spend so much time discussing doctrines and issues that have nothing doctrinally to do with saints in this age?

You should be “quoting >>†Wavy and pointing out his errors using Scripture like Paul did for the Galatians, when false brethren sneaked in to spy out their liberty “IN†Christ Jesus to bring them “under bondage.†Galatians 2:4-5.

AV >> The average saint today is not even grounded in the basic doctrines (justification, etc.) and yet there are all these threads on doctrines that have no practical bearing on anything that will make the saint a more useful saint. Amazing - sad - a shame.

A shame? The shame is that more true ‘brethren’ IN Christ Jesus are not taking the stand against this form of modern day Legalism. The wolf is in the chicken house and you ran out with nothing in your hands. Turn on the Light and expose those trying to drag your brothers and sisters back under Mosaic Law. When everyone can see the enemy clearly, then they can spot him coming from miles away. The “New Covenant†(Hebrews 8:8) has NOTHING to do with the members of the “body of Christ†(Ephesians 4:12), because we are “IN†Christ already and seated in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). Our lives are already hidden with Christ ‘IN’ God (Colossians 3:3).

We can get NO CLOSER to being “IN†God than we are already through Paul’s “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message. Israel of the flesh will be saved by the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) in the upcoming “times and epochs†(Acts 1:6-7) restoration period of the “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2). God will offer the “New Covenant†TO THEM and all of those brought into the kingdom of God ON EARTH through the “Gospel of the Kingdom.†You have heard the old adage that ‘blood is thicker than water.’ Well, that is the difference between Paul’s Gospel #2 and the Gospel of the Kingdom #1 in this post ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 ).

We must warn the members of Christ’s body about the traps of Legalism and those trying to drag them back under Mosaic Law. Otherwise our intentions will become suspect at the judgment over our own works (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Thank you again for writing against this Legalism.

In Christ Jesus and NOT under law (Romans 6:14),

Terral

 

[wavy]

The funny thing is that you select which parts of Mosaic Law to follow and disregard the rest.

Not true.

Those living under Mosaic Law (like you claim, but do not keep yourself) are living in the time BEFORE FAITH CAME.

That scripture must be interpreted properly. Because Hebrews 11 lists a number of Israelite witnesses who were justified by faith before the torah was given.

As far as all you Galatians quotes and Romans quotes about not being "under law" and Christ being the "goal of the law", I have already commented on them. Repeating them does not do anything...

You also ignored a lot of what I said. Example:

He teaches clear torah to Timothy. Example:

1 Timothy 5:18
For the scripture saith, "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn." And the labourer is worthy of his reward.
1 Timothy 5:19
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before "two or three witnesses."

Deuteronomy 25:4 and Deuteronomy 19:15.

 

[Terral]

Wavy Keeps The "Whole Law." Heh . . . Right . . .

Hi Wavy:

Thank you for writing.

Terral Original >> The funny thing is that you select which parts of Mosaic Law to follow and disregard the rest.

Wavy >> Not true.

That is your reply? Okay, Wavy. How many of the over 600 ordinances of Mosaic Law do you keep? Since you are keeping the ‘whole Law’ (James 2:10), then your reply should include over 600 entries. Good Luck . . .

Terral Original >> Those living under Mosaic Law (like you claim, but do not keep yourself) are living in the time BEFORE FAITH CAME.

Wavy >> That scripture must be interpreted properly. Because Hebrews 11 lists a number of Israelite witnesses who were justified by faith before the torah was given.

Every word from God must be interpreted properly. Are you inferring that a man is justified today by anything other than by faith apart from works (Romans 4:4-6) and obedience to our Gospel? What does Paul say?

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous shall live BY FAITH." Romans 1:16-17.

Here is the deal in a nutshell: Nobody in the OT had the opportunity to obtain the ‘righteousness OF GOD’ by faith apart from works to obtain ‘eternal life’ (Romans 6:23) by God’s grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Has Christ died for anyone in the OT? No. However, the danger here is that some among us are trying to establish their ‘own righteousness’ with this “keep the Law†business. Paul writes on this topic, saying,

“Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness AND seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.†Romans 10:1-4.

I gave you Paul’s teaching on the differences between ‘before faith came’ and ‘now that faith has come’ (Galatians 3:23-27), but you choose to run back into the OT to justify your Legalism. If you understood that God’s Own righteousness is being imputed to those believing our gospel APART FROM THE LAW (Romans 3:21-26), then you would not be trying to substitute that with something else.

Wavy >> You also ignored a lot of what I said . . .

Everything written in these posts is not worthy of a reply . . .

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[wavy]

Re: Wavy Keeps The "Whole Law." Heh . . . Right .

That is your reply? Okay, Wavy. How many of the over 600 ordinances of Mosaic Law do you keep? Since you are keeping the ‘whole Law’ (James 2:10), then your reply should include over 600 entries. Good Luck . . .

Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that all 613 commandments (as interpreted by the traditional Rabbis) do not apply to every individual...

Also, I have a thread on the first page that talks about this very thing.

Are you inferring that a man is justified today by anything other than by faith apart from works (Romans 4:4-6) and obedience to our Gospel?

No. However, you must believe the right thing...

What does Paul say?

[quote:450c5]“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous shall live BY FAITH." Romans 1:16-17.

[/quote:450c5]

Or, more accurately, the just shall live by his faith, or have the faith of the Messiah. Not merely faith in Messiah. The faith of Yahshua is spoken of all over the NT.

Examples: Romans 3:32, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 3:12, Philippians 3:9, James 2:1, Revelation 14:2,.

Here is the deal in a nutshell: Nobody in the OT had the opportunity to obtain the ‘righteousness OF GOD’ by faith apart from works to obtain ‘eternal life’ (Romans 6:23) by God’s grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

This is wrong. Paul gives Abraham as a perfect example in the 4th chapter of Romans. What do you mean?

Romans 4:1
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Has Christ died for anyone in the OT? No.

What? I'm sure you've read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah. To die for Israel was his main objective! The very Israel mentioned in the "OT".

However, the danger here is that some among us are trying to establish their ‘own righteousness’ with this “keep the Law†business. Paul writes on this topic, saying,

[quote:450c5]“Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness AND seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.†Romans 10:1-4.

[/quote:450c5]

Exactly. Some unbelieving parts of Jewish Israel try to reject Messiah on account of "works of law", not realizing Messiah is the actual goal of the law.

He is not saying believe in Messiah and reject the torah. That would contradict Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, and Romans 8:7 for examples in this same letter.

He's saying you cannot trade Messiah for torah. That's a contradiction because the torah is supposed to reveal him to you:

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I gave you Paul’s teaching on the differences between ‘before faith came’ and ‘now that faith has come’ (Galatians 3:23-27), but you choose to run back into the OT to justify your Legalism.

Where did this come from? You didn't explain any differences. And why is reading the Tanakc going "back"?

If you understood that God’s Own righteousness is being imputed to those believing our gospel APART FROM THE LAW (Romans 3:21-26), then you would not be trying to substitute that with something else.

I'm not substituting it. As a matter of fact, Paul "runs back" to the "OT" to validate this statement:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

An example?

Isaiah 45:24
Surely, shall one say, in יהוה have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isaiah 45:25
In יהוה shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Without Paul "running back" here, his assertions would not be true. All he is saying is that because all have sinned (Romans 3:23), we need righteousness imputed to us apart from or outside of what comes from the torah because we've all broken the torah. Therefore we cannot be justified in it. That's not the reason it was given, and so, Yahweh's imputed righteousness does not do away with a torah lifestyle, which is performed because of Yahweh's imputed righteousness (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Everything written in these posts is not worthy of a reply . . .

Well, I thought that if you claimed Paul taught Timothy in direct contradition to torah, and yet he commands him specifically to perform torah, that would be worth replying to...

 

[Terral]

We Obtain The Righteousness Of God By Faith Apart From Works

Hi Wavy:

Thank you for writing.

Terral Original >> That is your reply? Okay, Wavy. How many of the over 600 ordinances of Mosaic Law do you keep? Since you are keeping the ‘whole Law’ (James 2:10), then your reply should include over 600 entries. Good Luck . . .

Wavy Backtracks >> Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that all 613 commandments (as interpreted by the traditional Rabbis) do not apply to every individual... Also, I have a thread on the first page that talks about this very thing.

That is it? Thank you for making my point . . . Please provide that list of how many you obey and disregard anytime you wish.

Terral Original >> Are you inferring that a man is justified today by anything other than by faith apart from works (Romans 4:4-6) and obedience to our Gospel?

Wavy >> No. However, you must believe the right thing...

Heh . . . believe the right thing? That is it? Please forgive, but this is not even good chat . . .

Terral’s Original Verses >> “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous shall live BY FAITH." Romans 1:16-17.

Wavy >> Or, more accurately, the just shall live by his faith, or have the faith of the Messiah. Not merely faith in Messiah. The faith of Yahshua is spoken of all over the NT. Examples: Romans 3:32, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 3:12, Philippians 3:9, James 2:1, Revelation 14:2,.

If you are going to write your posts in English, then please write in English. There is no Yahshua anywhere in my Bible. We agree that one lives by the “faith of Jesus†(Romans 3:26), but the point is over the ‘righteousness of God’ and how one obtains that. The saving ‘faith’ you are talking about comes from hearing the gospel itself (Romans 10:17) and the ‘righteousness of God’ is imputed upon that faith by God Himself (Romans 4:4-6) apart from any works. Thus far your Legalism is void from this post.

Terral Original >> Here is the deal in a nutshell: Nobody in the OT had the opportunity to obtain the ‘righteousness OF GOD’ by faith apart from works to obtain ‘eternal life’ (Romans 6:23) by God’s grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Wavy >> This is wrong. Paul gives Abraham as a perfect example in the 4th chapter of Romans. What do you mean? Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Where did Abraham go upon seeing death? Into heaven? No. Let’s stop comparing apples we have today “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6-7) to the oranges of righteousness that men had before God and one another in the OT. Abraham went down to Sheol “and he was gathered to his people†(Genesis 25:8) just like everybody else with the fathers. The ‘faith of Jesus’ you are talking about above was milled out for us at Calvary. Even Peter and the Twelve had no access to that in the Four Gospels. The term ‘faith’ is not even used in the Gospel of John (NASB) to demonstrate the fact that our saving “faith of Jesus†was still “IN†Him.

Terral Original >> Has Christ died for anyone in the OT? No.

Wavy >> What? I'm sure you've read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah. To die for Israel was his main objective! The very Israel mentioned in the "OT".

Nobody pointed to Isaiah 53 to prove Jesus Christ was the “Son of God†2000 Years ago. The chief priests and scribes and Pharisees were all well aware of Isaiah 53, but they crucified Christ anyway. Satan knows this Bible better than anyone here and he never understood Isaiah 53 pointing to Christ dying for our sins, or he would have NEVER crucified the Lord of Glory. 1 Corinthians 2:6-8. The fact that prophecy appears in the Old Testament does not ‘save’ anyone from there sins.

Here is the problem with your theory: If anyone could obtain the saving “faith of Jesus†BEFORE Christ died for our sins, then there is another avenue to have sins forgiven right now today. Is there another way to the Father but through His Only Begotten Son? NO! Did Abraham profess his faith in our Lord Jesus Christ; believing that He is Lord and God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9)? No. That was quite impossible, and because you can run into the OT and find a prophecy changes NOTHING about that fact. Gospel messages are PREACHED and prophecies are uttered from the mouths of prophets allowing us to know God’s will. The fact that someone hears a prophet pointing to Calvary in the OT gives NOBODY eternal redemption. Otherwise Christ came and died FOR NOTHING. When God raised Christ from the dead, then He led a host of captives (Ephesians 4:8) into the heavenly and you can bet the house that Abraham was among them.

Terral Original >> However, the danger here is that some among us are trying to establish their ‘own righteousness’ with this “keep the Law†business. Paul writes on this topic, saying, “Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness AND seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.†Romans 10:1-4.

Wavy >> Exactly. Some unbelieving parts of Jewish Israel try to reject Messiah on account of "works of law", not realizing Messiah is the actual goal of the law. He is not saying believe in Messiah and reject the torah. That would contradict Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, and Romans 8:7 for examples in this same letter. He's saying you cannot trade Messiah for torah. That's a contradiction because the torah is supposed to reveal him to you:

“Messiah†(mashiyach #4899) is the name of the ‘king of Israel’ translated “anointed†37 times and just twice into “Messiah†(Daniel 9:25-26). The Greek version is “Messias†(#3323 = anointed) used only twice in John 1:41 and John 4:25. You will not find Paul saying that anyone is baptized into “Messias,†because that is Christ’s name “according to the flesh.†Paul teaches that while we once knew Christ according to the flesh (Messiah), we know Him that way “NO LONGER.†2 Corinthians 5:16-17. The reason is that “Christ Jesus†is larger than this entire universe and all things in this creation are held together (Colossians 1:17) “IN†Him. Therefore, when you say “Messiah,†then I am thinking of Jesus Christ walking around on the earth 2000 Years ago. If that is what you mean, then our thinking is light years apart and we are not even in the same universe.

Part of Israel’s blindness (Romans 11:25) to these things of ‘the mystery’ (Ephesians 3:3) is over this concept of “Messiah†being a physical ‘King of Israel.’ It is not that Christ is the goal of the Law. Jews are bound under the tutor of Mosaic Law to lead them to Christ, so they can be justified by the same ‘faith of Jesus’ as Gentiles who know nothing about keeping Mosaic Law. Both Jew and Gentile are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works. Ephesians 2:8-9. That tells you Jews are not WORKING through the Law to find Christ, but that the types and shadows enfolded within Mosaic Law itself points directly to Jesus Christ. Your point about Abraham is that men have always been justified by believing God, but God imputing His Rightousness upon those with the ‘faith of Jesus’ is a completely different thing entirely. Paul says we become the ‘new creation’ (Galatians 6:15) “created IN Christ Jesus†(Ephesians 2:10), which means we are something totally NEW. If the same thing took place for Abraham, then Paul is a liar in giving us this teaching in the New Testament. The fact that Abraham was gathered to his people tells you that Paul is teaching something new here in the New Testament.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[wavy]

Re: We Obtain The Righteousness Of God By Faith Apart From W

That is it? Thank you for making my point . . . Please provide that list of how many you obey and disregard anytime you wish.

I don't disregard anything. It's all scripture. I believe torah obedience is a gradual process. Taking the steps of Abraham (Romans 4:12).

And no, I have not come to full compliance yet. That is not because I have disregarded it. That is because I am learning. You have to be taught it.

Heh . . . believe the right thing? That is it? Please forgive, but this is not even good chat . .

Well, I did answer your "yes" or "no" question. So I don't understand where "that is it?" comes from.

If you are going to write your posts in English, then please write in English. There is no Yahshua anywhere in my Bible.

Not in English. In the Hebrew it is. It is the same name as the one translated "Joshua".

It is the Messiah's proper name.

We agree that one lives by the “faith of Jesus†(Romans 3:26), but the point is over the ‘righteousness of God’ and how one obtains that. The saving ‘faith’ you are talking about comes from hearing the gospel itself (Romans 10:17) and the ‘righteousness of God’ is imputed upon that faith by God Himself (Romans 4:4-6) apart from any works. Thus far your Legalism is void from this post.

I agree with you. How one attains the righteousness of Yahweh is not through works. Never was. Never will be. So you are falsely accusing me (again) about something I did not say.

Where did Abraham go upon seeing death? Into heaven? No. Let’s stop comparing apples we have today “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6-7) to the oranges of righteousness that men had before God and one another in the OT. Abraham went down to Sheol “and he was gathered to his people†(Genesis 25:8) just like everybody else with the fathers.

This is completely off topic. Where he went is not the subject. Whether or not he was justified by faith apart from works was the nature of what I said.

In Abraham's case, in direct contradiction to what you said (that no one in the "OT" was justfied by faith apart from works) he was justified by faith apart from works. Where he went when he died is irrelevant.

The ‘faith of Jesus’ you are talking about above was milled out for us at Calvary. Even Peter and the Twelve had no access to that in the Four Gospels. The term ‘faith’ is not even used in the Gospel of John (NASB) to demonstrate the fact that our saving “faith of Jesus†was still “IN†Him.

This is an argument from silence.

Nobody pointed to Isaiah 53 to prove Jesus Christ was the “Son of God†2000 Years ago.

Because Isaiah 53 does not say anything about "Son of God". This is irrelevant to my original statement. You said Christ died for no one in the "OT". Isaiah 53 is a direct rebuttal of that.

The chief priests and scribes and Pharisees were all well aware of Isaiah 53, but they crucified Christ anyway. Satan knows this Bible better than anyone here and he never understood Isaiah 53 pointing to Christ dying for our sins, or he would have NEVER crucified the Lord of Glory. 1 Corinthians 2:6-8. The fact that prophecy appears in the Old Testament does not ‘save’ anyone from there sins.

They were aware of many things. They just (a) didn't apply them or (b) were ignorant of what it meant.

Besides, this is again off topic. Just because some people didn't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Here is the problem with your theory: If anyone could obtain the saving “faith of Jesus†BEFORE Christ died for our sins, then there is another avenue to have sins forgiven right now today.

This is the problem with your assertions: you don't seem to understand the implications of "faith of". The "faith of" Yahshua was his trust in Yahweh no matter what.

This is how we should believe.

Is there another way to the Father but through His Only Begotten Son? NO! Did Abraham profess his faith in our Lord Jesus Christ; believing that He is Lord and God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9)? No.

We don't know what understanding Abraham had. All we know is that he trusted in Yahweh. The contents of what he believed does not change the nature of the faith: complete trust in Yahweh no matter what he says.

And, btw, we are also told to have the "faith of" Abraham:

Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

His understanding of the Messiah, as little or much as he knew, is seen here:

Genesis 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to thy seed", which is Christ.

Even Moses had an understanding of Messiah!

Hebrews 11:26
Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

The fact that someone hears a prophet pointing to Calvary in the OT gives NOBODY eternal redemption.

Yet Abraham, for example, does have eternal redemption. He and all the faithful in Hebrews 11 saw ahead:

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Otherwise Christ came and died FOR NOTHING. When God raised Christ from the dead, then He led a host of captives (Ephesians 4:8) into the heavenly and you can bet the house that Abraham was among them.

I don't doubt Abraham was among them. However, this does not only speak of the righteous in Abraham's bosom. I believe it has dual application. It declares the freedom of all Israel in exile too, in their captivity.

He quotes this:

Psalm 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that יהוה Elohim might dwell among them.

The few verses down qualify what the "captivity" is:

Psalm 68:22
The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:

Same terminology used here when the children of Israel were delivered out of trouble in the land of Canaan from the pagans:

Judges 5:12
Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.

“Messiah†(mashiyach #4899) is the name of the ‘king of Israel’ translated “anointed†37 times and just twice into “Messiah†(Daniel 9:25-26).

"Messiah" is not a name.

You will not find Paul saying that anyone is baptized into “Messias,†because that is Christ’s name “according to the flesh.â€Â

This is based on nothing but opinion, and lacks substance or relevance in this little discussion.

Part of Israel’s blindness (Romans 11:25) to these things of ‘the mystery’ (Ephesians 3:3) is over this concept of “Messiah†being a physical ‘King of Israel.’ It is not that Christ is the goal of the Law.

Well, as far as "goal of the law", you are arguing with the actual Greek and the context of Romans 10:4.

And Messiah is a physical King of Israel.

Jews are bound under the tutor of Mosaic Law to lead them to Christ, so they can be justified by the same ‘faith of Jesus’ as Gentiles who know nothing about keeping Mosaic Law.

Romans 7:1. Galatians 4:21.

Pagans know nothing about the torah. Those who believe in Messiah have access to it by the scriptures, which validates their faith. As such, they are not "pagans" anymore.

Your point about Abraham is that men have always been justified by believing God, but God imputing His Righteousness upon those with the ‘faith of Jesus’ is a completely different thing entirely.

So you say...

Paul says we become the ‘new creation’ (Galatians 6:15) “created IN Christ Jesus†(Ephesians 2:10), which means we are something totally NEW. If the same thing took place for Abraham, then Paul is a liar in giving us this teaching in the New Testament. The fact that Abraham was gathered to his people tells you that Paul is teaching something new here in the New Testament.

No, this means individually. If Abraham was justified by faith apart from works, he became a new regenerated individual too.

Same here with Shaul (Saul):

1 Samuel 10:6
And the Spirit of יהוה will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

This principle was not established in the NT.

 

[Terral]

We Are No Longer Under A Tutor

Hi Wavy:

Thank you for writing. One the topic of the “New Covenant†for the houses of Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8:8) which has NOTHING to do with Christians today.

Terral Original >> That is it? Thank you for making my point . . . Please provide that list of how many you obey and disregard anytime you wish.

Wavy Reply >> I don't disregard anything. It's all scripture. I believe torah obedience is a gradual process. Taking the steps of Abraham (Romans 4:12). And no, I have not come to full compliance yet. That is not because I have disregarded it. That is because I am learning. You have to be taught it.

Perhaps that sounds fine and dandy to one without knowledge on the topic of keeping Mosaic Law, but this side of the discussion knows full well that Wavy will never keep the ‘whole Law’ (James 2:10). Those saved by God’s grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) today are members of the ‘dispensation of GOD’S GRACE’ (Ephesians 3:2) and NOT under law (Romans 6:14). Here is where the rubber meets the road on this topic:

“But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.†1 Timothy 1:5-7.

All of this talk about keeping Mosaic Law is ‘fruitless discussion’ and Wavy is the one standing in the shoes of “wanting to be teachers of the Law,†even though he hasn’t the slightest clue about what he is trying to sell to others. There is MUCH WISDOM in ‘knowing’ what the Law teaches right down to the provisions and utensils for the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple. Every doctrinal precept of Mosaic Law for ISRAEL symbolizes and typifies something in heaven above. However, your understanding of those unseen realms is NOT FROM KEEPING THE LAW itself, but from seeing the patterns in the relationships that each has to one another for ISRAEL. Paul says it all to the Colossians in two simple verses that continue to fly over Wavy's head like a jet plane. Wavy might never see the essence of this simple truth, but perhaps others on the way to being caught up in his Legalism will see it. This is more than I like to quote at one time, but follow along slowly:

“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.†Colossians 2:13-17.

Paul carries you from the time before your salvation to describe your active participation with Christ in His conquest over sin and death, as “He made you alive together with Him.†God has “forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt.†God has "taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" itself. The same humiliation that Christ suffered through His beating and nakedness and public display and stumbling to the cross was suffered also by the evil heavenly authorities of this darkness (Ephesians 6:12) who are indeed ‘passing away’ (1 Corinthians 2:6).

We have conquered over all things through our active participation as the members of “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 11:27) NOT because we keep Mosaic Law, but because we were “IN†Christ actively participating in His Passion every step of the way. This is where Paul comes to one of the most important “Therefores†in the whole Bible. He says “Therefore . . . NO ONE is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink OR in respect to a festival or a new moon OR a Sabbath Day (one of the 10 Commandments). Why is Paul saying it is okay to observe or NOT observe the Sabbath Day itself? He teaches that all of these things of Mosaic law are mere “SHADOWS†of what God holds in store for those who are “IN†Christ Jesus in heaven above. Paul says,

“Therefore IF you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, NOT on the things that are on earth (like Mosaic Law). For you have died (dead men are not under the Law) and your life is hidden with Christ IN God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed (Matthew 24:30), then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.†Colossians 3:1-4.

If you wish to bind yourself under the chains of Mosaic Law, even though Paul says you are “no longer under a tutor†(Galatians 3:25), then that is your choice. However, to set yourself up as a ‘teacher of the Law’ directly opposes everything Paul teaches about walking ‘by faith and NOT by sight.’ 2 Corinthians 5:7. There is a much deeper set of truths (the Mystery = Ephesians 3:3) at work in this topic concerning the ministry of death VERSUS the ministry of Spirit that surpasses Mosaic Law. Paul writes, saying,

“But if the ministry of death (under Mosaic Law), in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has NO glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.†2 Corinthians 3:7-11.

The same Mosaic Legal System you are trying to push onto others is in reality the “ministry OF DEATH†and the “ministry OF CONDEMNATION†that Paul is talking about right here. The “ministry of Spirit†and the “ministry of righteousness†have the “glory that surpasses it.†Wavy’s form of Legalism is a giant step BACKWARDS in the clutches of the “ministry OF DEATH†and “CONDEMNATION,†whether he ever wakes up and realizes it or not. The grave DANGER of assuming his Legalistic posture is that you are substituting the things of the “ministry of Spirit†with the MERE SHADOWS contained in Mosaic Law.

Wavy is trapped into running after the things he CAN SEE, instead of keeping his spiritual eyes fixed on Christ at the right hand of God above. Those of you reading this post with Bible’s open seeking ‘the truth’ will find it. Those of you happy to run after the mere shadows can head straight back into the ministry of death and condemnation, because you also are UNWORTHY to be called my brothers “IN†Christ Jesus; walking by FAITH and NOT by sight.

That is my case on this topic and everyone is at liberty to walk in the Light of freedom “IN¢â‚¬Â Christ Jesus, OR to run back into the shadows of condemnation. It is all up to you . . .

If the Mods do not ban me for speaking freely on these topics, then we will begin explanations of "The Mystery" (Ephesians 3:3) that will tie all of this together. While they believe themselves judging my worthiness to write here, in truth they are judging your worthiness to hear "the truth."

Thank you again for writing Wavy, but that is all I have to say on this topic.

In Christ Jesus and NOT under Mosaic Law,

Terral

 

[JM]

Salvation can't be found outside of a Covenant relationship with God.