Growth New Testament Greek for free

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Responding to #2. Since you believe the 'spirits' are those of departed human beings (your answer to #1), do you believe the Bible teaches in 1 Pet 3:19 that unbelieving human beings who are now spirits will be given a second chance of salvation?

Oz

1 Peter 3:19, IMO, does not teach that we get a second chance.
I believe the whole premise of the N.T. is to decide NOW about one's afterlife because then it'll be too late.

There's a denomination here in Italy that does teach that we get a second chance because of Jesus' words: neither will that sin be forgiven in this world (age?) or the next.... But this concept goes against every other verse spoken by Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I always thought "preached to the spirits in prison" was related to the "righteous" people in the "Abraham's Bosom" side of the Hades that was then, that described in parable in Luke 16.

I thought these souls were taken to Heaven after the Cross, which has been called "The Harrowing of Hell".

I don't know why Jesus would preach to those souls in "Torments" (Tartarus) - I always thought they just stayed in Hades where they were.

I agree with you.
What you've stated makes the most sense to me since the good, saved persons were in Abraham's Bossom...

BUT:

1. Why did Jesus have to preach to them if they were already saved? They just could have been freed to go to heaven after the cross.

2. Why is Noah mentioned, in 1 Peter 3:19 for instance?
Wouldn't EVERYONE that did not believe then deserve a second chance?

 

[Anto9us2]

Lawyers, Essenes, Pharisees, and Sadducees were SECTS or types of Jews, Sanhedrin was a BODY or council jointly run by diverse Jews.

I never heard of Essenes in the Sanhedrin, I thought of Essenes as avoiding the Temple. "Lawyers" I guess could be Pharisees or Sadducees...

The Sanhedrin I thought to be a "Temple body", of course, the sects could be all over - I think one time Paul tried to get out of a jam by pitting Sadducees against Pharisees claiming he was in trouble because of believing in the resurrection, which Pharisees believed in and Sadducees did not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lawyers, Essenes, Pharisees, and Sadducees were SECTS or types of Jews, Sanhedrin was a BODY or council jointly run by diverse Jews.

I never heard of Essenes in the Sanhedrin, I thought of Essenes as avoiding the Temple. "Lawyers" I guess could be Pharisees or Sadducees...

The Sanhedrin I thought to be a "Temple body", of course, the sects could be all over - I think one time Paul tried to get out of a jam by pitting Sadducees against Pharisees claiming he was in trouble because of believing in the resurrection, which Pharisees believed in and Sadducees did not.

I'd have to agree with you.
The Essenes removed themselves from society and lived as "monks".
I can't remember too much about them but this I know for sure.

 

[Anto9us2]

I never saw a "second chance" have anything to do with preaching to spirits in prison, I am bewildered on that.

Jesus preached to OT "good guys" and said "we're leaving - way is open to Heaven now"

PRISON I see as the whole unseen realm described in Luke 16 (that's what HADES means in Greek - unseen).

It used to include bad souls and OT saints souls - now only has unbelievers - OT saints were taken to Heaven

PRISON in the sense of Luke 16 parable - no one can go from Torments to Abraham's Bosom or vice versa - a great gulf divides them, and no soul good or bad can leave the whole HADES realm, that's why it's a prison

What would Jesus preach to the TORMENTS/TARTARUS crowd other than say "yer outta luck"?

But then Christ takes believers with him - that's the harrowing of hell

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

The Greek Septuagint (LXX) translated the Hebrew Sheol of the OT as Hades.

Oz

That i know but as you know ,plenty of words on,Greek don't translate to English ,Hebrew its word for is is historia,borrowed from,the Greek sane with synagogue.that's from,the same word synod,and ekkesia.


I'm,well aware of greek and its why in the tanakh I prefer Hebrew ,the Name of God isn't master as in slave owner as that is what Adonai means,it was used to by the 70 to try to honor the YHWH usage but since they couldn't translate the letters by for consonants they choose the word for lord .

What letter is the koine Greek for the yod,the hey,vah,hey.?

When you are trying to pronounce the actually Name to Greeks it wouldn't be without problems.thus my point of why its not a literal translation to Greek.your posts have shown why we shoukd know Greek.

Funny there's a greek restaurant here whose menus use modern Greek ,I was able because of math make out the some of words on,the wall.


I could go into the word for soul in Greek ,three of them ,pneuma,air,spirit,breathe psyche,mind ,soul,soma,flesh
Also in the lxx psuche
Versus the Hebrew ,nephesh,nephesh chaya,ruach,and that y word for the connection to God we have only .

We could digress into how Pluto was also used in 259 bc.

 

[Anto9us2]

It's not all clear.
In the OT, sometimes it seems souls have no consciousness in Sheol - sometimes souls do have consciousness, Samuel' s soul is called up by a witch at the behest of King Saul...

It is conceivable to call the "good side" of HADES as PARADISE, ABRAHAMS BOSOM, or HEAVEN even, but it's not the real upper heaven. It's ambiguous - where did Enoch and Elijah go, the two who did not die?

Jesus told repentant thief on cross next to him "today you will be with me in paradise".

The "soul sleep" doctrine comes from OT verses that say "the dead cannot praise thee in Sheol"

But not all OT references agree about souls being unconscious in Sheol.

 

[jasonc]

It's not all clear.
In the OT, sometimes it seems souls have no consciousness in Sheol - sometimes souls do have consciousness, Samuel' s soul is called up by a witch at the behest of King Saul...

It is conceivable to call the "good side" of HADES as PARADISE, ABRAHAMS BOSOM, or HEAVEN even, but it's not the real upper heaven. It's ambiguous - where did Enoch and Elijah go, the two who did not die?

Jesus told repentant thief on cross next to him "today you will be with me in paradise".

The "soul sleep" doctrine comes from OT verses that say "the dead cannot praise their in Sheol"

But not all OT references agree about souls being unconscious in Sheol.

Abraham's bosom isn't found in Judaism. I can post info on paradise(gan eden) sheol, and gin himmon, but nothing is taught about that in Judaism in the midrash, the Talmud Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud on that at all. which is odd given how metalicus the man rashi preserved the Talmud as he wrote it down over fear of all jews who knew it would be dead.

that is why I see that as a parable about what God felt about how we treated each other in context of the previous chapters this makes sense and Jesus used the parable to show that jewish view on sheol to them using their own words against them. that doesn't mean that the idea of hell(which as an eternal judgement has yet to happen for all) see the last book for that, as hades, the sea and the grave after the judgement are cast into the lake and also the judged are first giving up the dead in them. the graves and the sea and hades so how can it be that this is a good doctrine about what hell is? its not

 

[jasonc]

in Greek thought, though less common hades is used as the word for grave, in sheol, like hades, the idea of the souls there in are like shadows. at least we don't have the idea of charon and having to cross styx to get to the place by placing coins(two dimetres).

 

[Anto9us2]

So we have ambiguous OT references to whether souls are conscious in Sheol - we have ONE PARABLE in Luke 16 and the repentant thief going to OT "Paradise"

We have Jesus telling Mary M.
"Don't touch me, I have not yet ascended to my Father" yet a little later, Mary M. And "the other Mary" are holding Him by the feet, and apparently it's okay then - so it's all complicated...

 

[jasonc]

So we have ambiguous OT references to whether souls are conscious in Sheol - we have ONE PARABLE in Luke 16 and the repentant thief going to OT "Paradise"

We have Jesus telling Mary M.
"Don't touch me, I have not yet ascended to my Father" yet a little later, Mary M. And "the other Mary" are holding Him by the feet, and apparently it's okay then - so it's all complicated...

to him who overcometh will I sit down with in the garden of eden. that is an idea from the sages, the sages taught that the moshiac would come and when it was all said and done, the earth would be gone and all of the righteous would be in eden with God and the garden would as it was and well look at what is said its pretty close.

the idea of paradise is close to that.

 

[Edward]

Thanks Ed,,,but knowing other languages, I know this does not really work....as OzSpen has stated, there are nuances in other languages that are lost in the English.

The way the lexicons translate a word is the same as in the bible....I don't believe it's any better. I have used this method on a very few occasions but don't find it very helpful.

I believe our bibles have been translated well and don't think too much about this...I know I'm missing something but it doesn't worry me.

Don't you think we should be looking at the "concepts" Jesus wanted to teach and not get stuck on every single word? There used to be a member here that could argue a word for pages. I'm not sure Jesus words are remembered in that way. Do you?

Idk about arguing every word on a forum but in private study it seems worth it to me. I like reading that kind of stuff. Seeing the original root words and stuff. There was a time when I read the Dictionary regularly, lol.

Besides, there was a time when that, study to show thyself approved scripture spoke to me, and I realized that I hadn't even ever read the entire bible through cover to cover, and I didn't want to have to explain one day, that I never even read His book! So then, after 3 readings cover to cover that verse spoke again about the BlueletterBible and there it was, lol. So I use it and it surprises me sometimes.

 

[OzSpen]

1 Peter 3:19, IMO, does not teach that we get a second chance.
I believe the whole premise of the N.T. is to decide NOW about one's afterlife because then it'll be too late.

There's a denomination here in Italy that does teach that we get a second chance because of Jesus' words: neither will that sin be forgiven in this world (age?) or the next.... But this concept goes against every other verse spoken by Him.

wondering,

I completed the article and upload to my homepage this afternoon, 1 Peter 3:19: Proclamation to spirits in prison

Would you and others on the forum please examine the article and give feedback on what is not consistent with the rest of Scripture (the Acts 17:11 principle)?

I am working on the exegesis of 1 Peter 3:20-21 (ESV):

because [or, when] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ​

Is the literal meaning, 'Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you', a literal and correct understanding of this verse?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

It's not all clear.
In the OT, sometimes it seems souls have no consciousness in Sheol - sometimes souls do have consciousness, Samuel' s soul is called up by a witch at the behest of King Saul...

It is conceivable to call the "good side" of HADES as PARADISE, ABRAHAMS BOSOM, or HEAVEN even, but it's not the real upper heaven. It's ambiguous - where did Enoch and Elijah go, the two who did not die?

Jesus told repentant thief on cross next to him "today you will be with me in paradise".

The "soul sleep" doctrine comes from OT verses that say "the dead cannot praise thee in Sheol"

But not all OT references agree about souls being unconscious in Sheol.

I believe when Jesus told the thief that he would be with Jesus that day in paradise...it's referring to hades in Luke 16.

 

[Anto9us2]

I think that too, wondering, I see HADES at that time as containing both Tartaus/Torments as well as PARADISE/Abraham's Bosom...

 

[Anto9us2]

There are things that are non-essential things, not matters of dogma, that I remain undecided about - the nature of "spirits in prison", the identity of Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany, these things I may never know for sure, and big deal.

As far as "Abraham's Bosom" not being in Judaism - well, the Top . Jew brought it up in that parable, so big deal if it wasn't in a Talmud.

Certain things we have very sparse scripture to go on, most people believe Satan took a third of the angels with him, as far as I can tell, a very figurative passage in Revelation talks about the Dragon taking a third of the stars from heaven and - wAllah - the doctrine of 1/3 bad angels and 2/3 good angels

 

[Anto9us2]

If we have a scripture that Jesus descended into hell, then Jesus descended into hell.

If we have a parable where Jesus says beggar Lazarus went to Abraham's Bosom, then we had an Abraham's Bosom at the time, even if beggar Lazarus and rich man are made-up people.

Angels falling from heaven and now becoming demons, well, chronology in Revelation seems all scrambled. That would have happened prior to man's existence. Some things in Revelation already happened, are happening now, and will happen in the future, IMO.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Interesting topic....

What will those 2,000 years from now think "I get you" means?
I understand you
I agree with you
? Quite a difference.

Is the NLT The Living Bible?
I have several, including the NASB (which is my favorite) and also the Living Bible.

The NASB is a more literal translation and the Living Bible translates the idea instead of the words...although the NASB translates the thought too.

So the Living Bible's translation will depend more on WHO is doing the translating and how that person(s) understand any one verse to state.

What say you?

Lol. You're reminding me of a story where they wanted to test an interpretation software and sent the phrase "The flesh is weak, but the spirit is strong" through several languages and it came back "The meat is bad, but the wine is good."

 

[Anto9us2]

As far as "importance of Greek" - look at Isaiah' s famous prophecy: "Behold a virgin shall conceive", well, Hebrew ALMA can simply mean a woman of marriage-able age, but when Septuagint was translated, Greek word is PARTHENOS - a VIRGIN virgin - it's a dual prophecy - some kid in Isaiah' s time, in a natural birth, was a sign to the king.

By the time of Jesus, the word in Septuagint was VIRGIN. I am under the impression that most OT quotes in NT are Septuagint rather than Masoretic. I used to have THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE, a good feature of it was, in the NT, all quotes, paraphrases, allusions to OT - were set off in ITALICS.

But much commentary in New Jerusalem Bible is too liberal for me. A quick litmus test - any Bible, go to introduction to Daniel.

If Daniel is portrayed as a real guy in Babylonian Times - that's conservative.

If book of Daniel is portrayed as EX EVENTU prophecy, and written in Macabeean tines, that' s liberal.

Daniel is in THE WRITINGS, not THE PROPHETS, yet again, we have the Head Shed Jew of all calling him "Daniel the Prophet"

 

[jasonc]

As far as "importance of Greek" - look at Isaiah' s famous prophecy: "Behold a virgin shall conceive", well, Hebrew ALMA can simply mean a woman of marriage-able age, but when Septuagint was translated, Greek word is PARTHENOS - a VIRGIN virgin - it's a dual prophecy - some kid in Isaiah' s time, in a natural birth, was a sign to the king.

By the time of Jesus, the word in Septuagint was VIRGIN. I am under the impression that most OT quotes in NT are Septuagint rather than Masoretic. I used to have THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE, a good feature of it was, in the NT, all quotes, paraphrases, allusions to OT - were set off in ITALICS.

But much commentary in New Jerusalem Bible is too liberal for me. A quick litmus test - any Bible, go to introduction to Daniel.

If Daniel is portrayed as a real guy in Babylonian Times - that's conservative.

If book of Daniel is portrayed as EX EVENTU prophecy, and written in Macabeean tines, that' s liberal.

Daniel is in THE WRITINGS, not THE PROPHETS, yet again, we have the Head Shed Jew of all calling him "Daniel the Prophet"

The Complete Tanakh (Tanach) - Hebrew Bible - The Jewish Bible with a Modern English Translation and Rashi's Commentary

English translation of the entire Tanakh (Tanach) with Rashi's commentary. This Hebrew Bible was edited by esteemed translator and scholar, Rabbi A.J. Rosenberg.

www.chabad.org

They are very orthodox,Daniel is scripture to them.

David also was called a prophet and wrote the psalms about Jesus .yet not many call king David as such .