Nicolaitans?

[Jethro Bodine]

1) There is no singular "antichrist."

IMO, this suggests that 'the man of lawlessness' is a specific man:

"3...and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming..." (2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 NASB)

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone." (Revelation 19:20 NASB)

IMO, there's no reason to not think the anti-christ is, both, a system of false worship, and a literal person who becomes the focus of that worship. Worship enforced by another literal person by threat of death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said -

25 And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called 'benefactors.' 26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves. Luke 22:25-27

Have you been to Churches where there is an entourage of "servants" hovering around the "Pastor" waiting on him or her, hand and foot.

It is a gross misrepresentation of the kingdom of God.


JLB

I see the problem being the way the offices of leadership are abused, not that there are offices of leadership.

 

[JLB]

Don't you see how circular your argument is? You're basically saying, "the Pope is the antichrist because the Pope is the antichrist." It's ridiculous.

Meanwhile I demonstrated the following.

1) There is no singular "antichrist."
2) The person who is the antichrist is the one who denies the Father and the Son.

The Pope professes Christ as his savior and therefore does not fall into the category of one who would qualify as an antichrist.

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18


This scripture completes refutes your first statement, that says there is no singular antichrist!


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

IMO, this suggests that 'the man of lawlessness' is a specific man:

"3...and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming..." (2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 NASB)
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone." (Revelation 19:20 NASB)

IMO, there's no reason to not think the anti-christ is, both, a system of false worship, and a literal person who becomes the focus of that worship. Worship enforced by another literal person by threat of death.

No, this suggests that YOU ASSUME that the man of lawlessness and the antichrist are the same person.

I have definitively shown that the supposed antichrist was present at the time of John's writing, and also that this antichrist is not one person but all those who deny the Father and the Son.

You have so many assumptions within your argument that come from popular church teaching it would be hard to know where to begin. Go read all the passages on the antichrist specifically, then come back to me.

 

[jasonc]

well alrighty then. the jews deny the Lord, are they anti-christs? yup.

what bout muslims? yup they do to.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

well alrighty then. the jews deny the Lord, are they anti-christs? yup.

what bout muslims? yup they do to.

What does the text say jasonc, remove all the preconceived assumptions in your head. What does John say about who the antichrist is?

Are the Muslims against Christ?
Are the Jews against Christ?

Do both of them deny the Father and the Son?

 

[jasonc]

What does the text say jasonc, remove all the preconceived assumptions in your head. What does John say about who the antichrist is?

Are the Muslims against Christ?
Are the Jews against Christ?

Do both of them deny the Father and the Son?

yes they do. the jews don't call the Heshem a trinity.
the muslims do the same.

if so then then the jews and muslims are our brethren since God aint a trinity. deny jesus, deny the father. accept jesus, accept the father. jesus words."deny me and you deny the father"

the jews say like the muslims God had no son.

 

[jasonc]

oh and I cant be a jew per chabbad.org if I believe in Jesus. the moshiac per them will NOT be God. but a man. two moshiacs. the muslims say nearly the same.

for the chassidics its moshiac ben joseph, and ben david.

 

[turnorburn]

Put this in your frontal lobes mother church is the woman in verse 4 Mystery Babylon is written on her forehead in verse 5 shes drunken with the blood of the martyrs in verse 6..

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

tob

 

[jasonc]

Put this in your frontal lobes mother church is the woman in verse 4 Mystery Babylon is written on her forehead in verse 5 shes drunken with the blood of the martyrs in verse 6..

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

tob

that would be ancient judiasm, unless you believe that the church of protestants and our denomations have prophets and apostles that the rcc will kill.

 

[turnorburn]

Founders of "Mainline" Churches Knew Who Anti-Christ Was

Issue Date: August/September 1984

The following quotes show just how far the churches of today have strayed from the wisdom of their founding fathers.

Martin Luther
(1483-1546) (Lutheran)
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 2, pg. 121 by Froom.

John Calvin
(1509-1564) (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from "Institutes" by John Calvin.

Cotton Mather
(1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)
"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church; and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from "The Fall of Babylon" by Cotton Mather in Froom's book "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Knox
(1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from "The Zurich Letters" pg. 199 by John Knox.

Thomas Cranmer
(1489-1556) (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from "Works" by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

John Wesley
(1703-1791) (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from "Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms" by John Wesley, pg. 110.

Roger William
(1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vessals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to changed times and laws: but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." Taken from "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers" by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

Quoted from GREAT PROPHECIES OF THE BIBLE by Woodrow.

tob

 

[jasonc]

im aware of that, but they didn't teach the rcc was a single person. the system of the rcc was anti-Christ to them.

 

[turnorburn]

antichrist isn't a single person what we have here is mixing new wine in old wineskins..

tob

 

[turnorburn]

As in many..

St. PeterBethsaida42? 67?
St. Linus Tuscia c. 67 76
St. Anacletus (Cletus) Rome 76 88
St. Clement Rome 88 97
St. Evaristus Greece 97 105
St. Alexander I Rome 105 115
St. Sixtus I Rome 115 125
St. Telesphorus Greece 125 136
St. Hyginus Greece 136 140
St. Pius I Aquileia 140 155
St. Anicetus Syria 155 166
St. Soter Campania 166 175
St. Eleutherius Epirus 175 189
St. Victor I Africa 189 199
St. Zephyrinus Rome 199 217
St. Callistus I Rome 217 222
St. Urban I Rome 222 230
St. Pontian Rome 230 235
St. Anterus Greece 235 236
St. Fabian Rome 236 250
St. Cornelius Rome 251 253
St. Lucius I Rome 253 254
St. Stephen I Rome 254 257
St. Sixtus II Greece 257 258
St. Dionysius Unknown 259 268
St. Felix I Rome 269 274
St. Eutychian Luni 275 283
St. Caius Dalmatia 283 296
St. Marcellinus Rome 296 304
St. Marcellus I Rome 308 309
St. Eusebius Greece 3091 3091
St. Meltiades Africa 311 314
St. Sylvester I Rome 314 335
St. Marcus Rome 336 336
St. Julius I Rome 337 352
Liberius Rome 352 366
St. Damasus I Spain 366 384
St. Siricius Rome 384 399
St. Anastasius I Rome 399 401
St. Innocent I Albano 401 417
St. Zozimus Greece 417 418
St. Boniface I Rome 418 422
St. Celestine I Campania 422 432
St. Sixtus III Rome 432 440
St. Leo I
(the Great) Tuscany 440 461
St. Hilary Sardinia 461 468
St. Simplicius Tivoli 468 483
St. Felix III (II)2 Rome 483 492
St. Gelasius I Africa 492 496
Anastasius II Rome 496 498
St. Symmachus Sardinia 498 514
St. Hormisdas Frosinone 514 523
St. John I Tuscany 523 526
St. Felix IV (III) Samnium 526 530
Boniface II Rome 530 532
John II Rome 533 535
St. Agapitus I Rome 535 536
St. Silverius Campania 536 537
Vigilius Rome 537 555
Pelagius I Rome 556 561
John III Rome 561 574
Benedict I Rome 575 579
Pelagius II Rome 579 590
St. Gregory I
(the Great) Rome 590 604
Sabinianus Tuscany 604 606
Boniface III Rome 607 607
St. Boniface IV Marsi 608 615
St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) Rome 615 618
Boniface V Naples 619 625
Honorius I Campania 625 638

tob

 

[turnorburn]

Severinus Rome 640 640
John IV Dalmatia 640 642
Theodore I Greece 642 649
St. Martin I Todi 649 655
St. Eugene I3 Rome 654 657
St. Vitalian Segni 657 672
Adeodatus II Rome 672 676
Donus Rome 676 678
St. Agatho Sicily 678 681
St. Leo II Sicily 682 683
St. Benedict II Rome 684 685
John V Syria 685 686
Conon Unknown 686 687
St. Sergius I Syria 687 701
John VI Greece 701 705
John VII Greece 705 707
Sisinnius Syria 708 708
Constantine Syria 708 715
St. Gregory II Rome 715 731
St. Gregory III Syria 731 741
St. Zachary Greece 741 752
Stephen II (III)4 Rome 752 757
St. Paul I Rome 757 767
Stephen III (IV) Sicily 768 772
Adrian I Rome 772 795
St. Leo III Rome 795 816
Stephen IV (V) Rome 816 817
St. Paschal I Rome 817 824
Eugene II Rome 824 827
Valentine Rome 827 827
Gregory IV Rome 827 844
Sergius II Rome 844 847
St. Leo IV Rome 847 855
Benedict III Rome 855 858
St. Nicholas I (the Great) Rome 858 867
Adrian II Rome 867 872
John VIII Rome 872 882
Marinus I Gallese 882 884
St. Adrian III Rome 884 885
Stephen V (VI) Rome 885 891
Formosus Portus 891 896
Boniface VI Rome 896 896
Stephen VI (VII) Rome 896 897
Romanus Gallese 897 897
Theodore II Rome 897 897
John IX Tivoli 898 900
Benedict IV Rome 900 903
Leo V Ardea 903 903
Sergius III Rome 904 911
Anastasius III Rome 911 913
Landus Sabina 913 914
John X Tossignano 914 928
Leo VI Rome 928 928
Stephen VII (VIII) Rome 928 931
John XI Rome 931 935
Leo VII Rome 936 939
Stephen VIII (IX) Rome 939 942
Marinus II Rome 942 946
Agapitus II Rome 946 955
John XII Tusculum 955 964
Leo VIII5 Rome 963 965
Benedict V5 Rome 964 966
John XIII Rome 965 972
Benedict VI Rome 973 974
Benedict VII Rome 974 983
John XIV Pavia 983 984
John XV Rome 985 996
Gregory V Saxony 996 999
Sylvester II Auvergne 999 1003
John XVII Rome 1003 1003
John XVIII Rome 1004 1009
Sergius IV Rome 1009 1012
Benedict VIII Tusculum 1012 1024
John XIX Tusculum 1024 1032
Benedict IX6 Tusculum 1032 1044
Sylvester III Rome 1045 1045
Benedict IX
(2nd time) Tusculum1045 1045
Gregory VI Rome 1045 1046
Clement II Saxony 1046 1047
Benedict IX
(3rd time) Tusculum1047 1048
Damasus II Bavaria 1048 1048
St. Leo IX Alsace 1049 1054

 

[turnorburn]

Victor II Germany 1055 1057
Stephen IX (X) Lorraine 1057 1058
Nicholas II Burgundy 1059 1061
Alexander II Milan 1061 1073
St. Gregory VII Tuscany 1073 1085
Bl. Victor III Benevento 1086 1087
Bl. Urban II France 1088 1099
Paschal II Ravenna 1099 1118
Gelasius II Gaeta 1118 1119
Callistus II Burgundy 1119 1124
Honorius II Flagnano 1124 1130
Innocent II Rome 1130 1143
Celestine II Città di Castello 1143 1144
Lucius II Bologna 1144 1145
Bl. Eugene III Pisa 1145 1153
Anastasius IV Rome 1153 1154
Adrian IV England 1154 1159
Alexander III Siena 1159 1181
Lucius III Lucca 1181 1185
Urban III Milan 1185 1187
Gregory VIII Benevento 1187 1187
Clement III Rome 1187 1191
Celestine III Rome 1191 1198
Innocent III Anagni 1198 1216
Honorius III Rome 1216 1227
Gregory IX Anagni 1227 1241
Celestine IV Milan 1241 1241
Innocent IV Genoa 1243 1254
Alexander IV Anagni 1254 1261
Urban IV Troyes 1261 1264
Clement IV France 1265 1268
Bl. Gregory X Piacenza 1271 1276
Bl. Innocent V Savoy 1276 1276
Adrian V Genoa 1276 1276
John XXI7 Portugal 1276 1277
Nicholas III Rome 1277 1280
Martin IV8 France 1281 1285
Honorius IV Rome 1285 1287
Nicholas IV Ascoli 1288 1292
St. Celestine V Isernia 1294 1294
Boniface VIII Anagni 1294 1303
Bl. Benedict XI Treviso 1303 1304
Clement V France 1305 1314
John XXII Cahors 1316 1334
Benedict XII France 1334 1342
Clement VI France 1342 1352
Innocent VI France 1352 1362
Bl. Urban V France 1362 1370
Gregory XI France 1370 1378
Urban VI Naples 1378 1389
Boniface IX Naples 1389 1404
Innocent VII Sulmona 1404 1406
Gregory XII Venice 1406 1415
Martin V Rome 1417 1431
Eugene IV Venice 1431 1447
Nicholas V Sarzana 1447 1455
Callistus III Jativa 1455 1458
Pius II Siena 1458 1464
Paul II Venice 1464 1471
Sixtus IV Savona 1471 1484
Innocent VIII Genoa 1484 1492
Alexander VI Jativa 1492 1503
Pius III Siena 1503 1503
Julius II Savona 1503 1513
Leo X Florence 1513 1521
Adrian VI Utrecht 1522 1523
Clement VII Florence 1523 1534
Paul III Rome 1534 1549
Julius III Rome 1550 1555
Marcellus II Montepulciano 1555 1555
Paul IV Naples 1555 1559
Pius IV Milan 1559 1565
St. Pius V Bosco 1566 1572
Gregory XIII Bologna 1572 1585
Sixtus V Grottammare 1585 1590

 

[turnorburn]

Urban VII Rome 1590 1590
Gregory XIV Cremona 1590 1591
Innocent IX Bologna 1591 1591
Clement VIII Florence 1592 1605
Leo XI Florence 1605 1605
Paul V Rome 1605 1621
Gregory XV Bologna 1621 1623
Urban VIII Florence 1623 1644
Innocent X Rome 1644 1655
Alexander VII Siena 1655 1667
Clement IX Pistoia 1667 1669
Clement X Rome 1670 1676
Bl. Innocent XI Como 1676 1689
Alexander VIII Venice 1689 1691
Innocent XII Spinazzola 1691 1700
Clement XI Urbino 1700 1721
Innocent XIII Rome 1721 1724
Benedict XIII Gravina 1724 1730
Clement XII Florence 1730 1740
Benedict XIV Bologna 1740 1758
Clement XIII Venice 1758 1769
Clement XIV Rimini 1769 1774
Pius VI Cesena 1775 1799
Pius VII Cesena 1800 1823
Leo XII Genga 1823 1829
Pius VIII Cingoli 1829 1830
Gregory XVI Belluno 1831 1846
Pius IX Senegallia 1846 1878
Leo XIII Carpineto 1878 1903
St. Pius X Riese 1903 1914
Benedict XV Genoa 1914 1922
Pius XI Desio 1922 1939
Pius XII Rome 1939 1958
John XXIII Sotto il Monte 1958 1963
Paul VI Concesio 1963 1978
John Paul I Forno di Canale 1978 1978
John Paul II Wadowice, Poland 1978 2005
Benedict XVIMarktl Am Inn, Germany2005

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0001474.html

 

[jasonc]

lol, so the bible was made up the anti-Christ. do you actually research this stuff ? ad 170 ish is when the first bible was put together and then later in the 400's the bible we have today is used by then the rcc.

you quote voice of the martyrs a lot. that is namesake after the word martyr where by the surname of a catholic called Justin martyr. ad 100.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Put this in your frontal lobes mother church is the woman in verse 4 Mystery Babylon is written on her forehead in verse 5 shes drunken with the blood of the martyrs in verse 6..

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

tob

How is this relevant? Where is the antichrist mentioned?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Founders of "Mainline" Churches Knew Who Anti-Christ Was

Issue Date: August/September 1984

The following quotes show just how far the churches of today have strayed from the wisdom of their founding fathers.

Martin Luther
(1483-1546) (Lutheran)
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 2, pg. 121 by Froom.

John Calvin
(1509-1564) (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from "Institutes" by John Calvin.

Cotton Mather
(1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)
"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church; and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from "The Fall of Babylon" by Cotton Mather in Froom's book "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Knox
(1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from "The Zurich Letters" pg. 199 by John Knox.

Thomas Cranmer
(1489-1556) (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from "Works" by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

John Wesley
(1703-1791) (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from "Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms" by John Wesley, pg. 110.

Roger William
(1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vessals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to changed times and laws: but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." Taken from "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers" by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

Quoted from GREAT PROPHECIES OF THE BIBLE by Woodrow.

tob

These people contextualized the idea of the antichrist to demonize an opposing point of view.

I see you reject Scripture though in favor of of these men's ideas.

What does John say as a man inspired by the Holy Spirit?