Nicolaitans?

[Jethro Bodine]

Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist's, Pastors and Teachers, Bishop's, Deacons and Elders, all speak to us of Leadership.

Sheep need Shepherds.

However, that is not the issue.

It is the Hierarchy that separate's the children of God into classes.

"Royalty" and "Commoners".

Those that "serve", and those that are "served'.


JLB

I still see you addressing the issue of abuse in the hierarchy, not the hierarchy itself. I'm okay with this. But I think it important that we see the difference. Which I think you do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I can't fathom at this present time is how the Papacy, if they are the beast out of the sea, can change things so drastically that they will have power over life and death and rule the world. That's where I get off the 'The Pope is the Anti-Christ' train. I know anything can happen, but that's a stretch for me right now.

 

[turnorburn]

Don't forget Martin Luther worshipped Mary..

The Catholic Church has always believed that Mary, just like Adam and Eve, was conceived without a fallen nature and unlike our first parents, she resisted temptation to sin by the grace of God, throughout her whole life.

Interestingly, Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation believed in Mary’s Immaculate Conception.

https://bfhu.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/martin-luther-believed-in-marys-immaculate-conception/

tob

 

[for_his_glory]

Tertullian, Irenaeus, and Jerome use Babylon as representing the Roman Empire. In the Middle Ages Rome is frequently styled the Western Babylon.

Just as the Nicolaitans worked their false teachings into the Church so does the Jesuit Priest bring into the Church their pagan teachings. Many give lip service, but their hearts are deceitful.

Seven heads are seven hills, which is Rome as Papal Rome sits on seven hills and she is the great whore. It's the Antichrist Jesuit Priest that will take his seat in Jerusalem and this will be the last abomination of desolation that will usher in that of Christ return. Matthew 24:15; Revelation Chapter 17

One of the abomination of desolation was 1260 years (a year is as a day with the Lord) of Papal Rome rule from 538AD with Emperor Justinian’s decree and under the military protection of Belisarius and the beast (Pope) until the deadly wound came in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the papal government and established a secular one. This is also confirmed in Revelation 12:6 the church of Jesus would hide in the wilderness for exactly 1260 days (years) or 3 ½ years. This was the time when Rome persecuted the Christians and killed them which were approximately 500 million saints slain for the cause of their faith in Jesus. 1798 – 538 = 1260 days/years. Napoleon had closed down the Catholic Church and the Papacy and its power was thought to be forever broken. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to the Pope and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty. Today the Vatican has formal diplomatic relations with almost every country in the world.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:12 and he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Revelation 12:6 and the woman (bride of Christ) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

[TOG]

Papistry has been killing Bible-believing Christians for centuries.

Protestants aren't exactly innocent either. The Reformation didn't exactly go peacefully everywhere. In some cases when Lutherans came to new places, they required everyone to convert to the new Protestant faith. Those who didn't, especially clergy, were executed. They also killed "witches" who had done nothing wrong other than things like knowing the healing properties of some of the herbs God created or, as in the case of the Salem witch trials, just weren't popular with the right crowd.

The TOG​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'll side with Jesus..

tob

You'll just make up whatever you want huh? Jesus doesn't side with dishonesty my friend. Show it to me in the Scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Tertullian, Irenaeus, and Jerome use Babylon as representing the Roman Empire. In the Middle Ages Rome is frequently styled the Western Babylon.

Just as the Nicolaitans worked their false teachings into the Church so does the Jesuit Priest bring into the Church their pagan teachings. Many give lip service, but their hearts are deceitful.

Seven heads are seven hills, which is Rome as Papal Rome sits on seven hills and she is the great whore. It's the Antichrist Jesuit Priest that will take his seat in Jerusalem and this will be the last abomination of desolation that will usher in that of Christ return. Matthew 24:15; Revelation Chapter 17

One of the abomination of desolation was 1260 years (a year is as a day with the Lord) of Papal Rome rule from 538AD with Emperor Justinian’s decree and under the military protection of Belisarius and the beast (Pope) until the deadly wound came in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the papal government and established a secular one. This is also confirmed in Revelation 12:6 the church of Jesus would hide in the wilderness for exactly 1260 days (years) or 3 ½ years. This was the time when Rome persecuted the Christians and killed them which were approximately 500 million saints slain for the cause of their faith in Jesus. 1798 – 538 = 1260 days/years. Napoleon had closed down the Catholic Church and the Papacy and its power was thought to be forever broken. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to the Pope and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty. Today the Vatican has formal diplomatic relations with almost every country in the world.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:12 and he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Revelation 12:6 and the woman (bride of Christ) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

There's no questioning the interesting parallels between the papacy and prophecy. It's still just too much of a stretch that the Catholic religion, in whatever form, will be the world's religion someday, as part of a one world religious, political, and economic kingdom. The Muslims will not go down without a serious fight. Acutally, I think a better case can be made for the Muslim religion becoming the murderous end-time religious, political, and economic kingdom of the last days. But even that has it's problems, too.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The famous indulgences of Luther's day....which caused the rebellion we call the Reformation. That's why I said the C. Church of yore.

Was it the doctrine itself, or the abuse of the doctrine?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You'll just make up whatever you want huh? Jesus doesn't side with dishonesty my friend. Show it to me in the Scriptures.

You haven't exactly proven your opinion is defended by scripture. You haven't addressed the questions I asked you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was it the doctrine itself, or the abuse of the doctrine?

Both.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Papistry has been killing Bible-believing Christians for centuries. According to Jacob Primer, in "Pastor Jacob Primmer in Rome" p. 215 upside down crucifixion is one of the tortures they used on our forefathers during the Inquisition (the picture at left was taken from the book "Pastor Jacob Primmer in Rome", sixth edition, 1912, Dunfermline Citizen office. In the next segment of the slideshow there is a picture of various inquisition tortures which include another upside down crucifixion. Inverted crucifixion is also pictured and mentioned in Samuel Clarke's Martyrology circa 1651). In this context, the pope's inverted cross means "Death to all who oppose Rome!" As Horace Greeley said, "It is impossible to mentally or socially enslave a Bible reading people." Bible believers will NEVER fit in with a Luciferian New World Order since Christ is our King and the Bible our only creed. In order to innoculate deceived Catholics from receiving the gospel, high level papists devise a number of mind control techniques including the use of propaganda...

tob

How about the Christ-like behavior from the Reformers.

“To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!” – “If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs” - Martin Luther

 

[jasonc]

Don't forget Martin Luther worshipped Mary..

The Catholic Church has always believed that Mary, just like Adam and Eve, was conceived without a fallen nature and unlike our first parents, she resisted temptation to sin by the grace of God, throughout her whole life.

Interestingly, Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation believed in Mary’s Immaculate Conception.

https://bfhu.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/martin-luther-believed-in-marys-immaculate-conception/

tob

ok so what exactly are you? a Baptist and where do they get their views of soteriology? from m.l luther and calvin. you might want to look up logicall fallacies. you have commited several

1) poisoning the well
2) circular reasoning.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Both.

Elaborate please.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You haven't exactly proven your opinion is defended by scripture. You haven't addressed the questions I asked you.

My whole point in this thread has been that the Pope and the RCC are not the antichrist.

It was proven in Post #9.

I was actually addressing Scriptures that referenced the antichrist, rather than assuming other passages are referring to it.

What questions haven't I addressed?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Elaborate please.

I thought the whole doctrine of indulgences, not just how it was administered, is one of the things that fueled the reformation.

I'm personally not aware of a doctrine of indulgence of some kind having been brought along into the Reformation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My whole point in this thread has been that the Pope and the RCC are not the antichrist.

It was proven in Post #9.

I was actually addressing Scriptures that referenced the antichrist, rather than assuming other passages are referring to it.

What questions haven't I addressed?

You haven't proven that the anti-christ and the man of lawlessness are two distinct things/persons.

 

[jasonc]

You haven't proven that the anti-christ and the man of lawlessness are two distinct things/persons.

read adam Clarke, matthew henry. neither of them taught what the futurists teach today.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

read adam Clarke, matthew henry. neither of them taught what the futurists teach today.

I honestly don't find commentaries very useful at all. Definitely not in an authoritative kind of way, anyway.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So you're saying the man of lawlessness is not the anti-christ...but who surely is himself an anti-christ?

Didn't see this post.

I don't believe so, the person who is the antichrist is he who denies the Father and the Son, per John the Apostle.

He shows the system of anti-christ, and those who walk in it, is present at the time of his writings.

The "system?" Uhh, way to add to the Scriptures there...

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NIV)

Was it just the system? Or did John say literally that "many antichrists have come," and especially distinguished this by the adverb "nyn"(now) which refers to the present and the "have come" is in the perfect tense which is in the indicative case which draws out the temporal element of it happening in the past.

Scripture is quite clear on this.

Which includes the man of lawlessness, but who is not to be called the anti-christ, right?

My argument is against him being specifically the antichrist, rather than it being all those who are against Christ.

We know who the many anti-christs are, John tells us. But who is this singular anti-christ that they had been told is coming?

"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18 NASB)
And just to be clear, you're saying this anti-christ that is coming (but which is already here in the form of the denial of Christ) is not even a person, and is not to be confused with the man of lawlessness that is coming, right?

I don't suppose to understand everything about the man of lawlessness, but what John says about the antichrist is quite clear.

Notice he doesn't say that THE antichrist is coming, the noun antichritos is without a definite article. Also, 1 John 4:3 tells us that it is some spirit, likely demonic influence over the world that does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming from God. This to me further indicates that it is not a particular human being who is coming in the future, but a present dark spiritual influence that denies the Father and the Son which has been around for some time.

I don't see the connection really at all, and those who get the idea don't get it from the Bible but from extra-biblical sources.

 

[jasonc]

I honestly don't find commentaries very useful at all. Definitely not in an authoritative kind of way, anyway.

you are giving yours. its influenced by schofiedism. I learned that its not possible to either do that oneself, or to rely ones who understand the cultural backdrop. until recently, as I was alluding to the protestant church didn't see the chance of isreal being a nation again. if we dig back into say martyr . he alone for the most part as what is said. is the only one that is first noted in statements of the chialism.