Nicolaitans?

[Deborah13]

"Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you." (Hebrews 13:17 NASB)

Authority and care giving.

imo
So they only have authority IF they keep watch over the church and must be able to give an account of it.
They are not by position given authority but by witness in caring for the church. They earn the trust of the church people. In the meantime they are to be given respect and care in return because of their position.
In the first century church leaders were many times appointed by the Apostles themselves. They were also very often people who had been in the congregation and had shown that they were Godly people.
Not so in the churches today. They often hire pastors like one would look at the qualifications for a CEO, education being first and then experience which may or may not have anything to do with their personal spiritual relationship and obedience to God.

 

[jasonc]

imo
So they only have authority IF they keep watch over the church and must be able to give an account of it.
They are not by position given authority but by witness in caring for the church. They earn the trust of the church people. In the meantime they are to be given respect and care in return because of their position.
In the first century church leaders were many times appointed by the Apostles themselves. They were also very often people who had been in the congregation and had shown that they were Godly people.
Not so in the churches today. They often hire pastors like one would look at the qualifications for a CEO, education being first and then experience which may or may not have anything to do with their personal spiritual relationship and obedience to God.

sad but true, but not the case with my church.

 

[TOG]

"Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you." (Hebrews 13:17 NASB)

Authority and care giving.

Point taken. I had forgotten about that verse. After reading it in context 8the whole chapter) and thinking about it, I agree with Deborah on this. Their Authority comes from what they do, not their "office". If an ordained pastor isn't watching over his flock and providing them with the sound Biblical teaching he should, then he doesn't have any spiritual authority over them. Conversely, if someone else who is not an ordained pastor/priest/bishop/whatever provides that teaching and watches over someone in the way a pastor should, then that person has that authority.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Our fatherly leadership now is via the HS. We (even if alone on a deserted island with no access to a pastor, elder, deacon, priest or pope) are not without a Father. Christ did not leave us orphaned. God (through the person of the HS is our Fatherly Leadership.

I've already showed scriptures that show it's in God's will that pastors have parent/child relationships with their people. Having the Holy Spirit inside of us does not negate all that teaching in our NT's.

Abuse of leadership does not negate all the passages about leadership and how they are to relate to us, and how we are to relate to them. The church reminds of all the people I've seen grown up despising the traditional structure of families because they were either abused in that traditional family structure, or because they simply don't think it right that someone be in authority over them. I see more of the latter in society today.......and in the church, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Point taken. I had forgotten about that verse. After reading it in context 8the whole chapter) and thinking about it, I agree with Deborah on this. Their Authority comes from what they do, not their "office". If an ordained pastor isn't watching over his flock and providing them with the sound Biblical teaching he should, then he doesn't have any spiritual authority over them. Conversely, if someone else who is not an ordained pastor/priest/bishop/whatever provides that teaching and watches over someone in the way a pastor should, then that person has that authority.

The TOG​

Anyone of us doesn't HAVE to be under a particular pastor's authority or under his care. Instead of accepting that we've done a fine job of disassembling God's system of leadership in the church to cater to our personal likes/dislikes in leadership. "He doesn't teach what my ears want to hear, so I won't be under his authority."

Just like any earthly family relationship, the parents aren't responsible for kids that insist on moving out of the house and not submitting to their authority. Sometimes there's a good reason to do that, sometimes there is not. Despite our choices, some legitimate, some not, in the end we will all give an account for ourselves and our role in the church. Some will have good reason to have not been under pastoral authority, while some will not and will have to explain it to the Lord. Rebellion is as the sin of idolatry.

For whom it applies, let each person themselves honestly examine their motives for refusing to submit to God's ordination of leadership in the church. Like I say, some have good reasons, some do not. IMO, it comes down to pride of knowledge all too often, the failures of the leadership being the rationalization for acting out of that pride.

The point being, let's have good honest reasons for not being under pastoral care, not disassemble the truth about authoritative hierarchy in the church to justify not being under pastoral care.

 

[JLB]

"... able to teach..."

Gifted ability IS a deciding factor. Character is not the only deciding factor.

Able to teach is from experience.

Not necessarily teaching scripture of which most were unlearned and did not have scripture.

This is primarily a reference to an older man teaching a younger how to conduct his life.

If a man does not handle his affairs with righteousness and take care of his family, teaching scripture is of no use.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Able to teach is from experience.

Not necessarily teaching scripture of which most were unlearned and did not have scripture.

This is primarily a reference to an older man teaching a younger how to conduct his life.

If a man does not handle his affairs with righteousness and take care of his family, teaching scripture is of no use.

JLB

You are not to put believers without the calling of a ministry office in authority over the church.

Of those who are called, you only put those who are obedient to the faith as evidenced by their lives in authority over the church.

 

[JLB]

You are not to put believers without the calling of a ministry office in authority over the church.

Of those who are called, you only put those who are obedient to the faith as evidenced by their lives in authority over the church.

If a man does not take care of his own, especially those of his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8

Godly character is placed above scriptural knowledge in God's Kingdom.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If a man does not take care of his own, especially those of his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8

Godly character is placed above scriptural knowledge in God's Kingdom.

JLB

That's not the point being argued.

The point is, God has ordained certain gifted people to lead his people. But there is this alarming trend in the church that insists it doesn't have to be led by those whom God has called to do that....that just any believer can do that.

There most certainly is a variance in our gifts and our ministerial callings. This does not automatically equate to a corrput system of masters and servants. We don't throw out the Biblical truth about legitimate leadership in the church and their authority just because it has been abused. But that is what so many are doing these days.

 

[Deborah13]

Able to teach is from experience.

Not necessarily teaching scripture of which most were unlearned and did not have scripture.

This is primarily a reference to an older man teaching a younger how to conduct his life.

If a man does not handle his affairs with righteousness and take care of his family, teaching scripture is of no use.

JLB

If a man does not take care of his own, especially those of his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8

Godly character is placed above scriptural knowledge in God's Kingdom.

JLB

 

[JLB]

That's not the point being argued.

The point is, God has ordained certain gifted people to lead his people. But there is this alarming trend in the church that insists it doesn't have to be led by those whom God has called to do that....that just any believer can do that.

There most certainly is a variance in our gifts and our ministerial callings. This does not automatically equate to a corrput system of masters and servants. We don't throw out the Biblical truth about legitimate leadership in the church and their authority just because it has been abused. But that is what so many are doing these days.

The way a person is to make his or her calling and election sure , is to develope Godly Character by spending time in the presence of God.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The way a person is to make his or her calling and election sure , is to develope Godly Character by spending time in the presence of God.

JLB

You either don't get it, or you're avoiding the plain things I've been saying to you.

You do NOT put any ol' believer in an office of official ministry. Only people who have that calling are to be considered for those offices. If you don't believe that then we can just throw all of Paul's teaching about ministerial calling out the window.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see you don't get it either.

 

[Deborah13]

I see you don't get it either.

Oh I think I get what you are saying. But what we are saying is that a persons moral character is of the first importance before his training, when we choose leadership.

We cannot know for sure that the Lord has called that person to that position. We can pray for God to give us the eyes and ears to know the truth but that does not mean mistakes are not made.
So we are called to judge that person and how they will be able to fulfill their role in the Body.

A church that has leadership that has been truly called by God to that position is a blessed church indeed.

 

[JLB]

You either don't get it, or you're avoiding the plain things I've been saying to you.

You do NOT put any ol' believer in an office of official ministry. Only people who have that calling are to be considered for those offices. If you don't believe that then we can just throw all of Paul's teaching about ministerial calling out the window.

I never said "any ol believer" is to be in a leadership position in the Church, that is something you just made up.

Godly Character and a person that has his house in order, take precedent over "gifting" every time.


Please share with us a some scriptures of Paul's teraching about ministerial calling, whereby Paul seems to disregard Godly character in preference over a person's so called gifting or calling.

Maybe you didn't read the scriptures I gave for my belief.

Hopefully you will be able to give us some scriptures that will clear up my misconception about a person's qualifications for leadership.


JLB

 

[JLB]

"The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; NOR AS BEING LORDS OVER THOSE ENTRUSTED TO YOU, but being examples to the flock" (1Peter 5:1-3).

The word “Nicolaitans” is a transliterated, compound word from the Greek text (nikolaites), derived from nike (“a victor,” “a conqueror”) and laos (“people”). Thus, the word simply means, “to be victorious over the people,” “to conquer the people.” - Wikipedia

Since the Church has never really separated itself from the position in which it began to assume during the days of Constantine, one can only expect to find Christendom saturated with the “doctrine of the Nicolaitans” from the fourth century right on into the present day and time. In fact, viewing the matter from this perspective, while looking upon it within the framework of the leavening process in Matthew 13:33, the doctrine of the Nicolaitans would have to be considered a false teaching that would undoubtedly increase with time; and this would make it even more prominent in the Church today, near the end of this age, than at any other time in history.

 

[agua.]

That's not the point being argued.

The point is, God has ordained certain gifted people to lead his people. But there is this alarming trend in the church that insists it doesn't have to be led by those whom God has called to do that....that just any believer can do that.

There most certainly is a variance in our gifts and our ministerial callings. This does not automatically equate to a corrput system of masters and servants. We don't throw out the Biblical truth about legitimate leadership in the church and their authority just because it has been abused. But that is what so many are doing these days.

There's plenty of self appointed Pastors today imo.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Godly Character and a person that has his house in order, take precedent over "gifting" every time.


Please share with us a some scriptures of Paul's teraching about ministerial calling, whereby Paul seems to disregard Godly character in preference over a person's so called gifting or calling.

Honestly, JLB, you have this recurring problem with debating points that aren't even being debated. Somehow you're COMPLETELY missing what I've been saying. I saw you make this diversion right from the start but you ignored my attempt to clarify it with you. Slow down and make it a point to understand your opponents argument.

There is no precedence between calling/giftedness and character. You must have BOTH. For any person with a particular gift and calling from God for official ministry, only choose those who actually live the faith as evidenced by their lives. But you do not pick a leader on character alone as if a hierarchy of leadership ordained by God does not exist, and is even wrong.

Your whole angle has been that somehow the Nicolatians were wrong for not just having an order of leadership that was corrupt, but for just having an order of leadership! Resisting an order of leadership can not be defended Biblically. The Bible makes it clear that there are those who are 'over' the rest of us in the church, and who will give an account to God for their leadership.

Add to that, you still have to convince me that this corrupt order of leadership was even an issue among the Nicolatians. The Bible talks about their immorality, not their order of leadership.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There's plenty of self appointed Pastors today imo.

Hey, hey! You get it!

I've been to more than one church whose pastor had missed his calling.

 

[JLB]

Honestly, JLB, you have this recurring problem with debating points that aren't even being debated. Somehow you're COMPLETELY missing what I've been saying. I saw you make this diversion right from the start but you ignored my attempt to clarify it with you. Slow down and make it a point to understand your opponents argument.

There is no precedence between calling/giftedness and character. You must have BOTH. For any person with a particular gift and calling from God for official ministry, only choose those who actually live the faith as evidenced by their lives. But you do not pick a leader on character alone as if a hierarchy of leadership ordained by God does not exist, and is even wrong.

Your whole angle has been that somehow the Nicolatians were wrong for not just having an order of leadership that was corrupt, but for just having an order of leadership! Resisting an order of leadership can not be defended Biblically. The Bible makes it clear that there are those who are 'over' the rest of us in the church, and who will give an account to God for their leadership.

Add to that, you still have to convince me that this corrupt order of leadership was even an issue among the Nicolatians. The Bible talks about their immorality, not their order of leadership.

Honestly Jethro,

I have noticed this reoccurring issue with you. When someone seemingly doesn't agree with every detail of your post, you seem to think they are entirely wrong in what they say.

Then you take what is said and add your own words and phrases to it, so that what was said , has a different meaning than what the person originally said, then you point out just how wrong the person is by adding your own contrived meaning to there words.

Did you ever stop and think that Godly character and morally excellent people don't appoint themselves to a position they have not been called to.

Godly character takes precedence over gifting and calling every time.

Many are called, few are chosen.

Please list the scriptures I asked you to list that show us a more gifted man is chosen over a man with Godly character and moral excellence.

If a man is not called to be a Pastor, then he has not business occuping the office of a Pastor, this goes without saying.

If two different men that are called to be a Pastor, one is a more gifted teacher, but has a problem with managing his own house, while the other has his wife and kids all serving The Lord, the one that gas his house in order is the right man for the job.

That is what I see the scriptures teach.