Nicolaitans?

[TOG]

The way I see it, pastors, elders, deacons, bishops ans others in the church hierarchy are supposed to be our servants, not our masters.

They are both.

Paul likens the relationship between church leader and the church as that of a parent to a child.

And like human parent/child relationships, some church leaders aren't very good at serving the needs of the child and use their parental authority to insulate themselves from the responsibility. That doesn't nullify the legitimacy of the parent/child relationship. It simply means it's being abused.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I only recall Paul making that comparison to Christ and the church. Where does he say that about church leaders?

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Dear Doulous Iesou,

"27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” (Daniel 9:27 NASB)

"23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever." (Daniel 7:23-26 NASB)

"7 After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, [g]this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts." ( Daniel 7:7-8 NASB)

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders..." (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 NASB)


"Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him." (Revelation 13:1-7 NASB)


"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I only recall Paul making that comparison to Christ and the church. Where does he say that about church leaders?

The TOG​

Parents/ children:

14 Here for this third time I am ready to come to you, and I will not be a burden to you (financially, see context); for I do not seek what is yours, but you; for children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children." (2 Corinthians 12:14 NASB)


'Parental' authority:

10 For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me for building up and not for tearing down." (2 Corinthians 13:10 NASB)

 

[JLB]

Hierarchy = Categorization of a group of people according to calling and giftedness = the Church


Do you have a historical source to show us the hierarchy you describe was part of the Nicolatians system of worship? I've never heard of it before.

I don't know about a "system of Worship", but this definition might help.

Nico-, combinatory form of nīko, "victory" in Greek, and laos means people, or more specifically, the laity; hence, the word may be taken to mean "lay conquerors" or "conquerors of the lay people".


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I only recall Paul making that comparison to Christ and the church. Where does he say that about church leaders?

The TOG​

I knew there was another one somewhere, it just took a bit to recall it...

"14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (1 Corinthians 4:14-15 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know about a "system of Worship", but this definition might help.

Nico-, combinatory form of nīko, "victory" in Greek, and laos means people, or more specifically, the laity; hence, the word may be taken to mean "lay conquerors" or "conquerors of the lay people".


JLB

So now we have to decide if the Nicolatians were named after the man of that name, or because they instituted some kind of unfair hierarchical system of leadership.

This is why I largely detest historical studies--that is trying to develop doctrine from historical traditions and personalities. It's rarely conclusive.

I still prefer to just read the scriptures. And what it says is they caused people to violate their consciences in regard to meat sacrificed to idols, and endorsed immorality.

 

[JLB]

Hierarchy = Categorization of a group of people according to calling and giftedness = the Church

Who decides that certain people are "organized" into a Hierarchy according to giftedness?

I always thought it was Godly character and spiritual maturity that qualified a person to be a deacon or elder or Bishop.

What you have just described is the foundational problem we have in the Church today.

A "gifted" person is placed in leadership over the humble and faithful one who serves quietly as unto the Lord.

Saul was the peoples choice, David was chosen by God.


Here are the qualifications of leadership, of which giftedness is not a deciding factor!

Bishop -

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 1 Timothy 3:1-7

and again -

7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. 10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:7-16


Deacons -

Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 3:8-13


Elders -

17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. 1 Timothy 5:17-21


I would add that, most in "leadership" positions in the local churches are "family" and "friends" of the Pastor.

This was strictly forbidden by Paul.


The early Churches were "Governed" as it were by leaders from within each community who lived among the people and were known by reputation within.

Paul appointed those whom he personally discipled and were faithful to set up the initial church structure in each city, made up of men of integrity and honor.

Those who were "self appointed" imposters who could speak great swelling words to sway gullible men and women, were quickly identified as such.

Godly Character should take precedent over "gifting" and "calling" every time!


JLB

 

[TOG]

Parents/ children:

14 Here for this third time I am ready to come to you, and I will not be a burden to you (financially, see context); for I do not seek what is yours, but you; for children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children." (2 Corinthians 12:14 NASB)

'Parental' authority:
10 For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me for building up and not for tearing down." (2 Corinthians 13:10 NASB)

I see where you get that now, but I also see a problem. The first verse (II Cor. 12:14) doesn't mention authority. It's about caregiving, which is something entirely different. The second verse (II Cor. 13:10) mentions authority, but it doesn't mention parents.

I did a quick word search for "authority" in the ESV on Bible Gateway. I limited the search to the New Testament. The word "authority" is used in a number of contexts, including God's authority, Christ's authority, the authority of human governments and more, but it is only used 3 times in the context of "church leadership".

For even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be ashamed. (II Cor. 10:8 ESV)

For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down. (II Cor. 13:10 ESV)

I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. (III John 1:9 ESV)
​

In these three verses, two authors, both of them apostles refer to authority which was given to them. Apostles had authority. There is, as far as I can see, no mention of deacons, elders, pastors or bishops having authority. There is, however, one place I know of that defines a hierarchy, and pastor, elders and the others aren't in it. For some reason (probably because people don't read the entire context) people seem to think it has something to do with hair and hats, so quoting it probably won't accomplish anything besides derailing the thread.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

TOG Just my interpretation of the scripture posted by Jethro to you.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 ESV
14 I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.

I believe what Paul is saying here is that he is their father in the sense that he originally brought them the Gospel and the founding father of the church at Corinth. He has a special position with them, no matter how many pastor, teachers, (tutors) they had over the years.
I believe this relates to individuals in the sense that....
A parent/child relationship between the person who lead one to Christ and that one. If we lead someone to Christ we are responsible if at all possible to continue on with them as a Godly parent would.
I do not see this verse teaching a parent child relationship (as master) between an individual and the church admins.

 

[JLB]

TOG Just my interpretation of the scripture posted by Jethro to you.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 ESV
14 I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.

I believe what Paul is saying here is that he is their father in the sense that he originally brought them the Gospel and the founding father of the church at Corinth. He has a special position with them, no matter how many pastor, teachers, (tutors) they had over the years.
I believe this relates to individuals in the sense that....
A parent/child relationship between the person who lead one to Christ and that one. If we lead someone to Christ we are responsible if at all possible to continue on with them as a Godly parent would.
I do not see this verse teaching a parent child relationship (as master) between an individual and the church admins.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Relax people! Don't be afraid. Not every pastor out there by virtue of his calling is your authoritative parental figure, lol.

You'll know who God is using as a parental figure in your spiritual life who looks after you and serves your needs. For me it was a retired 700 Club pastor running a small ministry in his retirement years.

 

[chessman]

2 John 1:7 (LEB) For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This person is the deceiver and the antichrist!

Or

2 John 1:7 (NIV) I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

This person is referred to as; The man of sin, and the son of perdition, and the lawless one, all of whom are references to one man, who will pose as the Messiah.

These are just some of the terms by which he is referred to.

JLB

How do you 'balance' your thought that the antichrist is one person (and also all these other terms are a reference to one person) with the passage above?

Daniel refers to him as the "prince who is to come", as well as the "little horn".

JLB

Daniel 8:15-16 (LEB) And then when I, Daniel, saw the vision, and I was seeking understanding, there was one standing before me with the appearance of a man. And I heard the voice of a human at the Ulai, and he called and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”

...
Daniel 8:27 And I, Daniel, was overcome, and I became ill for some days, and I performed the business of the king, and I was dismayed over the vision and I did not understand it.

How come Daniel, even after Gabriel explained it to him, still did not understand this vision yet you do with enough clarity to say the little horn was meant to envision one person we now know as The Antichrist?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There's nothing more fun than being the leader over a group of people who are convinced you have no authority over them and that you owe them everything. Fun, fun, fun. I pity those in ministry today.

I've been wanting to start a poll to see what people think is the fundamental problem in the church today. I say pride and arrogance. This rebellion against leadership is closely related. Instead of discerning good leaders from bad we've tossed the entire concept of 'people being over you' in the Bible out altogether.

"Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you." (Hebrews 13:17 NASB)

 

[chessman]

For me it was a retired 700 Club pastor running a small ministry in his retirement years.

John 14:16-18 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here are the qualifications of leadership, of which giftedness is not a deciding factor!

"... able to teach..."

Gifted ability IS a deciding factor. Character is not the only deciding factor.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For me it was a retired 700 Club pastor running a small ministry in his retirement years.

John 14:16-18 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

Your point is exactly?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...
Daniel 8:27 And I, Daniel, was overcome, and I became ill for some days, and I performed the business of the king, and I was dismayed over the vision and I did not understand it.

How come Daniel, even after Gabriel explained it to him, still did not understand this vision yet you do with enough clarity to say the little horn was meant to envision one person we now know as The Antichrist?

21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering.22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding." (Daniel 9:21-22 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see where you get that now, but I also see a problem. The first verse (II Cor. 12:14) doesn't mention authority. It's about caregiving, which is something entirely different. The second verse (II Cor. 13:10) mentions authority, but it doesn't mention parents

"Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you." (Hebrews 13:17 NASB)

Authority and care giving.

 

[chessman]

Your point is exactly?

Our fatherly leadership now is via the HS. We (even if alone on a deserted island with no access to a pastor, elder, deacon, priest or pope) are not without a Father. Christ did not leave us orphaned. God (through the person of the HS is our Fatherly Leadership.

 

[jasonc]

Mine is not commentary. And there's no question that everyone in the church today has somehow been influenced by Schoefield. That's why it's important that we read the Bible for ourselves and weigh what he and others say about it instead of blindly accepting it. We are to especially do that with those who assert themselves to be leaders of the church. We do that with everybody else, but if you claim you're a leader and have a plaque on the wall to show it, the church seems to just blindly accept whatever that person has to say.

I do not learn from any single source of information. I learn when I can talk to my brothers and sisters about the scriptures and weigh carefully what is said, the way Paul said we are to do. Some people have a lot of truth in what they say, some not as much, but through the collective experience I add to my learning as I add what I hear to what I read in the Bible. It's just that I have found, after reading the Bible for myself, that commentaries are among those who contribute the least to my spiritual inspiration. Generally speaking, they don't speak to me like the Bible does. Hearing God in the Bible is how I can recognize when I'm hearing the Spirit outside of the Bible, and when I'm not.

that is how I work. learned to from here.