*** No one actually makes choices

[Cassian]

Danus,

The only reason Jonah chose to disobey God was because God allowed him to.

actually created man able to disobey by being a rational soul, with a free will.

The choice Jonah made to disobey God was by Jonah's own will to disobey. It was not until God intervened that Jonah was able to make the choice God wanted him to make.

Until God intervened? God told Jonah to go to Nivevah, Jonah said, "no way God, that is a waste of time". God did intervene again, and told Jonah what He wanted to do in Ninevah and why God wanted Jonah to go. Jonah, being a rational soul, decided to follow God's instructions, especially since God could do something else to him. But the choice was free, Jonah could still have told God, no.

If man is not utterly sinful as the bible says, then he is somewhat righteous, which the bible clearly says he is not at all,

That is imposing "total depravity" upon scripture and scripture does not teach it. Man is not "utterly sinful, he is sinful. Are men righteous, absolutely, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, ( II Pet 2:4-9) and many others were righteous before God, but that does not mean they never sinned. We as believers become righteous when we defeat sin. (I John 3:7) He commands us to be Holy as He is Holy, (I Pet 1:15-16)

but let's suppose man is somewhat righteous.

it is more that man can be righteous. We are all born innocent, but we sin so easily that sin befalls us constantly. But all men can also resist sin if they desire to resist sin.

If man is somewhat righteous then some where born with more righteousness than others, since some make the right choices and some do not, of their own volition.

Every single human being is born innocent, thus righteous. ONe needs to sin before one becomes a sinner. Sin is an act of not doing the will of God. Where did a fetus sin? What did he/she do to sin?

So, then those who do not make the right choices can't be blamed, since obviously they do not have what it takes to make the right choices. This notion would fit into your theologic. But, if it does not, there has to be something else. Some other means for man to make a right choice.

every man has the same capability, the ability to make a choice for God. God made sure that no man will ever say to Him that they were not given the chance to know Him. All men are actually created with a knowledge of God. Man must actively reject God, thus God can judge man justly.

The bible says man is utterly sinful, no one does good, no not one, yet you say; that's not true some are not as sinful as others by their own power they are better than the others. You say this when you say man can choose good, and you say this when you say man is not sinful, and you say this against what the bible says of mankind, and you say that it is true.

ONe needs to take phrases or verses in context and not lift them to support erroneous suppositions. Paul is making a different point in Rom 3 with using the Psalms. But the Psalms from which the phrase comes (Ps 140, 143, 10,) is not referring to all men.

Man has the ability to make scripture say whatever they desire to make it say to support man made suppositions. The whole of Calvinism is a case in point.

We are not created objects. God is not completely transcendent, but acts and works within His created order with His uncreated energies. God's providence is in stark contrast with predestination. Predestination is a creation of fatalism. God set in motion the world and everything that will happen, and nothing in the course of his predestined decrees can change the flow. That is pagan philosophy which is the root of predestination as understood as a doctrine. Deism is a modern version of predestination.

If man made no choices whatsoever, then man is not culpable and responsible for his own actions. This by the way is a modern legal point often a winning argument in cases. Man is not charged with responsibility but the act is blamed on environement, others, circumstances, and whatever a good lawyer can formulate to get a person off and not responsible.

 

[reba]

I doubt it was Jonah's will that cased him to be a type of Christ... I doubt it was just coincidence

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Prov 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

The above is a verse Calvinists have quoted to me several times on different forums over the years. Calvinists somehow think this verse proves their position.

Prov 16:9a "A man's heart deviseth his way..."

This tells me man has free will to make his own plans, whether those plans be good or evil, he has the free will to make those plans.


Prov 16b "..but the LORD directeth his steps."

This tells me God controls how those free will plans of man work out. So God does not have to over-ride man's free will for He can control how man's plans work out.

So God's sovereignty is about control and is NOT about predestining man to do things such as committing sin against his will and thereby violate man's free will.

There is a world of difference between controlling the outcome of free will plans a man makes and predestining plans for man.


If Jonah had no choice but could only do what God has predestined him to do, then as I said in my earlier post, God forced Jonah to disobey Him just so God could punish him. This is just attack on God's character of being just, holy, merciful, loving, etc. No one has given a rational explanation as to why God forces man to disobey Him just so God can punish him. I do not know any parents who have children and force their children to disobey them just so they can have the joy of punishing their kids.



Man is not toally depraved for he is just as able to choose good as he is evil.

 

[Danus]

Prov 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

The above is a verse Calvinists have quoted to me several times on different forums over the years. Calvinists somehow think this verse proves their position.

Prov 16:9a "A man's heart deviseth his way..."

This tells me man has free will to make his own plans, whether those plans be good or evil, he has the free will to make those plans.


Prov 16b "..but the LORD directeth his steps."

This tells me God controls how those free will plans of man work out. So God does not have to over-ride man's free will for He can control how man's plans work out.

So God's sovereignty is about control and is NOT about predestining man to do things such as committing sin against his will and thereby violate man's free will.

There is a world of difference between controlling the outcome of free will plans a man makes and predestining plans for man.


If Jonah had no choice but could only do what God has predestined him to do, then as I said in my earlier post, God forced Jonah to disobey Him just so God could punish him. This is just attack on God's character of being just, holy, merciful, loving, etc. No one has given a rational explanation as to why God forces man to disobey Him just so God can punish him. I do not know any parents who have children and force their children to disobey them just so they can have the joy of punishing their kids.



Man is not toally depraved for he is just as able to choose good as he is evil.

As for Proverbs 16, it seems you clearly see how God directs the steeps of man for the outcome that is predestine. Keep in mind that Calvin did not say man does not have free will. As the bible says, and as Paul and many others have also indicated, Man's free will is limited by mans own sin.

You have already said that man is not sinful by nature. You have said that man is born sinless and innocent. The bible does not say this, but you do. So, I'm wondering why you think Proverbs 16 indicates that God guides the steps of man for God's own outcome. That seems to contradict your notion that man guides himself by his own free will to do that which is righteous.

In regards to Jonah, how did God force Jonah to disobey Him? If Jonah makes his own good decisions by himself, of himself, then how is it that God intervened? Why should he if Jonah did it all on his own, or did he?

Are you saying because God allowed Jonah to make the choice to disobey him that he forced him to disobey him? Because if you are saying that then you are taking away the very foundation you argue salvation on, which is man's free will to be saved. How are you saying God forced Jonah to do anything? or are you?

Earlier you said God does not intervene; then you agreed He does for his own purpose. Which is it?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

As for Proverbs 16, it seems you clearly see how God directs the steeps of man for the outcome that is predestine. Keep in mind that Calvin did not say man does not have free will. As the bible says, and as Paul and many others have also indicated, Man's free will is limited by mans own sin.

You have already said that man is not sinful by nature. You have said that man is born sinless and innocent. The bible does not say this, but you do. So, I'm wondering why you think Proverbs 16 indicates that God guides the steps of man for God's own outcome. That seems to contradict your notion that man guides himself by his own free will to do that which is righteous.

In regards to Jonah, how did God force Jonah to disobey Him? If Jonah makes his own good decisions by himself, of himself, then how is it that God intervened? Why should he if Jonah did it all on his own, or did he?

Are you saying because God allowed Jonah to make the choice to disobey him that he forced him to disobey him? Because if you are saying that then you are taking away the very foundation you argue salvation on, which is man's free will to be saved. How are you saying God forced Jonah to do anything? or are you?

Earlier you said God does not intervene; then you agreed He does for his own purpose. Which is it?

Prov 16:9 says nothing about "the outcome being predestined".

It seems to me if the outcome was predestined then man's plans are predestined and you still have the problem of God forcing men to plan sins just so He can punish man.


There is no verse that says man is born a sinner. I did point out that John defined sin as transgression of the law, 1 Jn 3:4. What transgression can a newly conceived person commit making him a sinner? Murder? Lying? Stealing? Adultery?

One is not first a sinner then goes about sinning later. One must first sin to be a sinner. Calling one a sinner before he ever sins is like calling a wall painted before you ever put any paint on it.


You asked "In regards to Jonah, how did God force Jonah to disobey Him?"

The title of this thread is that no one really makes choices. So I understand you to mean then that man can only do what God has predestined him to do since man supposedly cannot make his own choices. So when God told Jonah to go to Nineveh, then why did Jonah go to Tarshish instead? If Jonah cannot make a choice then he must have been predestined by God to go to Tarshish meaning God forced Jonah to disobey and then God punished Jonah for doing the very thing God predestined him to do.


God does not intervene in to over-ride and violate man's free will. Man can use his own free will to make good or evil plans and God does not intervene violating man's free will to make his own plans.

 

[Tri Unity]

The title of this thread is that no one really makes choices. So I understand you to mean then that man can only do what God has predestined him to do since man supposedly cannot make his own choices. So when God told Jonah to go to Nineveh, then why did Jonah go to Tarshish instead? If Jonah cannot make a choice then he must have been predestined by God to go to Tarshish meaning God forced Jonah to disobey and then God punished Jonah for doing the very thing God predestined him to do.

See the extent of Calvin's weeds that were sown.

 

[Gordon]

I think there's a hole in your logic. You make the assumption you are right in your idea then use it to prove you are right. If I was going to argue against you I would say what happened in the past may have altered what was possible in the present but it did not determine it. For instance if I called you a fool a week ago you may never really like me;). But if I said your a nice guy though in the present you may say well he's ok. However if I said your a huge fool instead then you'd really not like me. Like someone said it only became fixed the moment it happened.

Though you could be right you just didn't prove it. On another note when I was in deep spiritual oppression I was given signs and synchronicity that sure made it appear I was walking in my destiny. I actually meditated to a cd called live your destiny. So if the demonic wanted me to think everything was fixed I hesitate to think this is true.

 

[Gordon]

If I was going to argue your point I would say does God know for certain everything that will happen? If he does then it must be fixed unless something like prayer causes some intervention by God. That brings up the question can God make a choice? If God gets angry and Jealous I'd guess he chooses to experience things in real time in some respect. I think it says a thousand years is like a day to the Lord. This implies he chooses to be part of time. If God is moved with emotions and all powerful does he simply refrain from changing his mind about any of the non elect as we experience time? Or is an all knowing God of infinite power just able to predict things knowing all the variables with amazing accuracy and make them happen.

The biggest hint to me is the angels rebellion. Did they think God had forseen their rebellion and would allow them to win? I'd guess they are operating on the belief that things aren't fixed and that a super intelligent being would be able to counter predict things against God. I guess this would have to rely on knowing something about God's nature that he wouldn't just instantly destroy them. More questions for you and I know you're not there. :bigfrown

 

[Danus]

As you pointed out, The bible says God knows all. he is the beginning and the end.

Psalm 139 illustrates this well I think.

1 You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,â€
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts,[a] God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand —
when I awake, I am still with you.

19 If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting

 

[rrowell]

That brings up the question can God make a choice?

Yes, here God was going to kill a nation:

Numbers 14:11-12 (KJV)
And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

But Moses pleaded to pardon them:

Numbers 14:19 (KJV)
Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

And so God makes His choice:

Numbers 14:20-21 (KJV)
And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word: But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.

 

[Gordon]

Hey. I think God must put some limitations on himself. Like Jesus not knowing when the end is or having to be told John had been killed. If God chooses to not know some things does that mean it's still fixed? Isn't everything still a choice until it has been forseen? Isn't what makes it a choice that it can go one way or another. If nothing knows or chooses to know even one thing then isn't that thing still a choice until it has happened? Or maybe God has chosen to know everything? Then I guess I'd go back to what Satan must have been thinking?

 

[Gordon]

Yes, here God was going to kill a nation:

Numbers 14:11-12 (KJV)
And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

But Moses pleaded to pardon them:

Numbers 14:19 (KJV)
Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

And so God makes His choice:

Numbers 14:20-21 (KJV)
And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word: But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.

I think of this too. But then I think when Jesus told the woman he had come for the Jews and not the dogs do he really mean this. Or did he know her response before this and grant her request first. Like if she would have said ok Jesus I guess I'll just go would he not have taken pity on her? But then I guess if this was not a choice God was lying. I don't know I really confuse myself. :eeeekkk

Isn't there another guy that was saved from soddom? God made a choice there too and it seemed like an exception as he turned the lady to ash just for looking back. That sure seemed like a choice God made.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If I was going to argue your point I would say does God know for certain everything that will happen? If he does then it must be fixed unless something like prayer causes some intervention by God.

Foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination. If it did that means God is culpable for all the sins committed. Man is just the 'puppet on the strings' that God uses to commit His sins.

 

[Gordon]

But it would still mean we made those choices already in a sense and they can't be changed. So is it a real choice as it happens since to God we already decided?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

But it would still mean we made those choices already in a sense and they can't be changed. So is it a real choice as it happens since to God we already decided?

Those choices were not predetermined by God even though He already knows what choices man makes. Acts 2:23 God foreknew that if those Jews had an opportunity to either accept or reject Christ, God foreknew they would of their own free will choose to reject Him and murder Him. So all God had to do was use their own free will choice in murdering Christ to accomplish His will that Christ die for the sins of mankind. Since it was the Jews own free will choice that is why Peter put the sin of murder on their 'wicked hands'.

But if God predetermined the Jews choice to murder, then the Jews could only do what God forced them to do through predetemination and then God is the one guilty of murder and the Jews were just the 'weapon' God used to commit murder. And Peter could not blame the Jews for they only did what God made them to against their will.

God does not force people to do wrong then punish them for the wrong God made them do.

 

[Eventide]

Those choices were not predetermined by God even though He already knows what choices man makes. Acts 2:23 God foreknew that if those Jews had an opportunity to either accept or reject Christ, God foreknew they would of their own free will choose to reject Him and murder Him. So all God had to do was use their own free will choice in murdering Christ to accomplish His will that Christ die for the sins of mankind. Since it was the Jews own free will choice that is why Peter put the sin of murder on their 'wicked hands'.

But if God predetermined the Jews choice to murder, then the Jews could only do what God forced them to do through predetemination and then God is the one guilty of murder and the Jews were just the 'weapon' God used to commit murder. And Peter could not blame the Jews for they only did what God made them to against their will.

God does not force people to do wrong then punish them for the wrong God made them do.

And isn't it painfully obvious which perspective glorifies God to the maximum extent ...

AMEN to this.. foreknowledge in no way is determinism.. I can tell young kids to not drink and drive because they could get seriously injured as well as cause serious injury to others.. that's simple foreknowledge in a human sense.. the actual transpiring of that has absolutely nothing to do with it being predetermined by me.

 

[Gordon]

Yhea but you guys aren't answering the question. Even if we made the choices doesn't God knowing it make it cease to be a choice. Isn't a choice something that can go different ways? I think this was what he was trying to prove. Once God saw it didn't it become fixed?

 

[Eventide]

Yhea but you guys aren't answering the question. Even if we made the choices doesn't God knowing it make it cease to be a choice. Isn't a choice something that can go different ways? I think this was what he was trying to prove. Once God saw it didn't it become fixed?

IMO yes, of course.. although that's not making it happen, it's knowing that it is going to happen...

Again, which view in your opinion glorifies our LORD to the maximum extent.. that He causes all things to happen (even sin) or that He knows all things and operates within the framework of His own creation to accomplish all things..?

IMO it's like night and day..

 

[Gordon]

Yes I'm currently with you guys on that point. If you think about it though this is like a big rerun in God's perspective if you guys think God knows all the future. Like once God saw everything it all became the past. It was only a real choice in the time God originally forsaw it. I think God might choose to experience things as they happen like we do. I'm not sure God chooses to operate outside time.

 

[Eventide]

Yes I'm currently with you guys on that point. If you think about it though this is like a big rerun in God's perspective if you guys think God knows all the future. Like once God saw everything it all became the past. It was only a real choice in the time God originally forsaw it. I think God might choose to experience things as they happen like we do. I'm not sure God chooses to operate outside time.

We can only imagine in a sense of course since we're in time.. although it's miraculous to say the least how the Lord has created all things for His pleasure and infinite glory.. with respect to how we actually experience it on our end.. and I'm only one person ! Imagine the Lord being that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world..

WE can only imagine..