*** No one actually makes choices

[Jethro Bodine]

The rock band Led Zeppelin had a popular song called "Stairway to Haven" and in the lyrics they suggest there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road your on.

Probably one of the smarter things they ever said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If God has the plan for us, and God directs our steeps, and the person without the spirit of God does not follow God's plan, then do you still think you have choices?

Yes! I can still drink whatever I choose to drink, watch whatever I choose to watch, sit on whatever I choose to sit on. But if all you want to stress is we can not choose to follow God except that God enable that choice then, 'yes', we all know no one comes to the Son except that they have been enabled to do so. But that hardly means I have no choices in anything at all and that we need to examine the physics of space and time and use big words like 'continuum' and 'quantum'.

 

[Danus]

Yes! I can still drink whatever I choose to drink, watch whatever I choose to watch, sit on whatever I choose to sit on. But if all you want to stress is we can not choose to follow God except that God enable that choice then, 'yes', we all know no one comes to the Son except that they have been enabled to do so. But that hardly means I have no choices in anything at all and that we need to examine the physics of space and time and use big words like 'continuum' and 'quantum'.

The big words are yours perhaps, but not mine.

I am not stressing anything to make a point, I'm laying it out as fact that we do not actually make choices, we only think we do. I've said that clearly. This is not smoke and mirror stuff to point to God, it's as solid as the sun is HOT.

No one makes any choice they where not going to make to begin with. We are only stepping into our own realities.

The word choice means: An act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities....I'm saying no one makes a real selection and that whatever they think they "choose" is what they where going to do as their own destiny, or future to have done so before they even did it. Hopefully this clears up any misunderstanding on the matter.

I also laid out some proof, in saying that if you believe you have made choices in life, then you are saying those choices have options and can be changed, yet you would agree that once the "choice" is made there is no option to it.

You can not go back to yesterday and change your choice. In the same sense you can not change what you are going to do moving forward because there is only ONE option, that you will do. That is not a choice by definition, but a destiny and a destiny is: The events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future, to which there is only ONE reality, not optional realities.

I'm not using any big words here. Can you count more than one reality in the past? NO, can you count more than one reality in the present? NO can you count more than one reality in the future? NO, and speculating on the future is not a choice that determines what will be, because whatever you do in the present was what you where going to do anyway, and it's also yesterdays future just unfolding into reality.

Choice is just a fantasy we entertain on what we would like, or think could be....but that's just us, it's only a pathetic attempt to shape something we have absolutely no control over, but like to think we do in our own will, and as we can see, if we are in our own will, then we are not in God's will, because no man can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

One reality, not multiple realities, one destiny not many, God's plan for us, not our plan for us. What happens is not our choice, what direction is also not out of choices we make, because God and God alone guides our steps, or he lets us alone to do it, but either way there is one destiny assigned to the path we are on.

Here are some typical examples. In the present time, If I don't cut my yard it won't get cut. I can either choose to cut it, or not, but the future condition of my lawn depends on what choice I make, but the choice I make has already been made because what is the future tomorrow is already written. That lawn is either cut in tomorrows future or it's not.

I can say I determine it, but how shallow is that? I could die before I cut my lawn. The mover might not work. There are many possibilities beyond my simply choosing to do anything at all, but what I consciously do is already written before I even do it. All I would be doing is stepping into the reality of what is already destine to happen, regardless. And so, i'm not really choosing anything, I'm just fulfilling what is, and what will be, and I'm doing it consciously or unconsciously. Either way time still moves with or with out my effort, as the future unfolds to become the past. What I've just written is now in the past. I can go back and edit it later, but I can't change that I typed it when and as I did. I've no choice in that.

So, Yes, you can still drink whatever you choose to drink, watch whatever you choose to watch, sit on whatever you choose to sit on, but what ever you do, is what you where already destine to do and can not be altered once you do it; and if you think you are altering the future of what you drink, watch or sit on, your actually only stepping into the reality of what will be, to which there are not options that can be changed since any speculation on what you will not do, will not happen anyway.

Thanks everyone for engaging me in this, and taking the time to read it. I know it's not an easy read to ponder, and I sincerely do appreciate each of you. It's not my intent to upset anyone with this. I'll leave it be

 

[Mike S]

There is no way to prove if the choices we make have a meaning.
I can do two things right now, get a Coke or a Pepsi. No matter which I choose, you can say it was my fate to get the one I picked and no other.

It's an impossible concept.

Yes, it is an impossible concept, and ultimately of no value whatever to try to answer. How would an answer either way change how a man lives his life? He's going to act as if he has choices even if he doesn't. It would be as worthwhile to agonize over whether the sun is bright or very bright.

 

[WIP]

I can do two things right now, get a Coke or a Pepsi.

Oh, man. Don't be trying to derail this thread by bringing up the Coke/Pepsi debate. There are some staunch supporters for both on this site.

 

[reba]

Unlike the Scriptures there is only one choice WIP

 

[for_his_glory]

Here are some finishing questions to lay out the foundation.

Would you agree that there is a moment in time where time is now past, and that we've no means of altering what's past, by the present or the future?

Would you agree that we can not also predict, or alter the past since it is effectively past, and written; done over and said?

Can the future can be altered or predicted by the past?

Can the future be altered or predicted by the present?

Would you agree that the present is yesterdays future? fair enough? What is happening today is what was going to happen yesterday, and what will happen to morrow is today's future? :eeeekkk

1. We can not change our past, but we do not have to repeat our past, but to only better our tomorrows.

2. The past is the past and only a memory in the now and the future.

3. This could be a yes and no as if we live in the past in this present then we will live our future from our past as never changing, never growing to that of what or where we want to be in the now or the future.

4. Our future can always be altered by the choices we made in the past and the present.

In the carnal we are destined to repeat our past if we are not looking for a change in the now or the future. Spiritually by the Holy Spirit whom dwells in us are transformed from our past to live in the now as a new creation through the life, death and resurrection of Christ as we live our now and future for that of Gods will and to continue in those works of the Lord giving no thought for our self, but to live for Christ and walk in His footsteps as He guides us in the present and future.

 

[Danus]

In the carnal we are destined to repeat our past if we are not looking for a change in the now or the future. Spiritually by the Holy Spirit whom dwells in us are transformed from our past to live in the now as a new creation through the life, death and resurrection of Christ as we live our now and future for that of Gods will and to continue in those works of the Lord giving no thought for our self, but to live for Christ and walk in His footsteps as He guides us in the present and future.

Well I think you tip-toed through those questions a little, but I see something in this last paragraph that is very fitting to the point of our inability to make any choices of our own, and for that I'd say you get it.

 

[Danus]

So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.†So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?â€
No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?†When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles. (Romans 9:16-24 NLT)

 

[for_his_glory]

So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.†So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?â€
No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?†When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles. (Romans 9:16-24 NLT)

God does not fashion one different then another or makes one to keep and the other to throw away like trash as we are all created equal, but through our own actions distant our self from His grace and mercy as many are called, but few are chosen. It's like the parable of the laborers in Matthew 20 and the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22 that some deem themselves better then others and would expect God to have favor on them, but it is the least that have humbled themselves before the Lord who are chosen as the last shall be first in the favor of the Lord

 

[Danus]

God does not fashion one different then another or makes one to keep and the other to throw away like trash as we are all created equal, but through our own actions distant our self from His grace and mercy as many are called, but few are chosen. It's like the parable of the laborers in Matthew 20 and the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22 that some deem themselves better then others and would expect God to have favor on them, but it is the least that have humbled themselves before the Lord who are chosen as the last shall be first in the favor of the Lord

Would you disagree then, with my quote you quoted?

 

[Fedusenko]

Your assertion that we don't have 'choice' is the same as mine that God doesn't love us. Just because your statement can not be currently proved incorrect does not make it true.

But then again, if God caused me to poison the waterhole (hypothetical example where I know people use it for their water source), then he caused me to sin. If he caused me to sin, then he is guilty of the sin, too.

Is this a way to excuse yourself from continual sin?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God knows already if every person he forms in the womb is going to believe, or not. He didn't predestined them to believe or not believe. He just already knows if they will or not...but finishes making them anyway. That is how he makes jars destined for glory and jars destined for destruction.

 

[Danus]

God knows already if every person he forms in the womb is going to believe, or not. He didn't predestined them to believe or not believe. He just already knows if they will or not...but finishes making them anyway. That is how he makes jars destined for glory and jars destined for destruction.

ooops! You've done it now Jethro...This has to go to the A&T section, where you will have to prove what you say my friend, WITH SCRIPTURE!

 

[Danus]

Your assertion that we don't have 'choice' is the same as mine that God doesn't love us. Just because your statement can not be currently proved incorrect does not make it true.

But then again, if God caused me to poison the waterhole (hypothetical example where I know people use it for their water source), then he caused me to sin. If he caused me to sin, then he is guilty of the sin, too.

Is this a way to excuse yourself from continual sin?

I did not say God does not love us, or that anyone has an excuse to sin. Let's look at what Paul says., on this very matter you've brought up.

Romans 5: 20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6: 1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

So my "assertion" that we have no choice is not the same as yours in saying God does not love us, because I know he does, and I have no choice but to be effected by his love, and I am. I have dies in sin, something I freely chose before I knew God, because it was all I had. How can you say God does not love us?

 

[Danus]

God knows already if every person he forms in the womb is going to believe, or not. He didn't predestined them to believe or not believe. He just already knows if they will or not...but finishes making them anyway. That is how he makes jars destined for glory and jars destined for destruction.

The analogy of God and the potter should not be pressed to extreme. Paul is suggesting we not have a God defying attitude of his divine providence, but rather we understand who's who, and that God is NOT answerable to man. That God does what he will. God saves whom he will; He shows mercy on whom He will, and he does so in his own time.

However, the fact remains not everyone is saved, but the fact also remains God can save anyone, and some people he simply does. In any case He can also harden the hearts of anyone. Paul makes that clear in the book of Romans.

So in this further analysis, which can easily be seen in Romans, does man choose anything? or does God?

 

[Fedusenko]

I am glad you understand Romans 6:1. Many do not. But for every Romans 5:20 also comes Romans 7:7.

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Both those are beside the point, though. I stated that the perspective "we don't have choice" is not necessarily correct just like "God doesn't love us" isn't necessarily correct. Just because something can't be proven incorrect currently doesn't make it correct.

The Crucifixion is the cornerstone for so many that God loves us. But God being God lacks mortality. Lacking mortality means that abundance abounds and value is in nothing. To describe God, one doesn't have to go far to see that He is a jealous one. And what might a jealous God do to a creation that has the one thing he never could, a sense of value? The sunset is pretty because it is limited in the same way that a diamond is valuable because it is rare. Flood the market with diamonds and the value disappears. Have infinite sunsets and they aren't so alluring. You and I are so incredibly different from God and the rest of His creations and a jealous God might just take that one peculiarity that makes you different from you. How would he do that? Send His Son to die to give you everlasting life and destroy the rest of them who rebel. Order restored, but not as you had hoped. God doesn't love you, but had selfish intent.

Is that true? Do I believe that? God forbid! No I don't believe it, but how do you prove it wrong?

Your statement "No one actually makes choices" is as true, provable, and disprovable as the above quotation. That does not make it right or wrong.

Do I think that God knows our actions before we commit them? Yes. Does that mean we have no choice in committing those actions? Not at all! Look at Sodom and Lot. He was going to destroy the city with Lot yet was deterred by Abraham. God's actions aren't set neither are ours. As I understand current theories of time, it is another plane of existence just as x,y,and z are. As a flat lander doesn't know what is in store for it on the perpendicular axis, but we do, God knows what possible actions we take. An infinite amount of possibilities, are all done? Fate and freewill coincide together. The remaining question is if we are committing these actions currently, have already committed them, and have we committed all the possible actions? Is God grafting out the destructive portion of the seed?

Speaking of time travel.... wouldn't the instantaneous dispersal of native particles due to a foreign time's mass suddenly appearing from the future cause nuclear fusion, thus destroying anything within miles of ground zero. I am no time traveler, but I have a hunch...

sorry, back to topic!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So in this further analysis, which can easily be seen in Romans, does man choose anything? or does God?

God enables choice in regard to salvation. By grace he gives back the choice mankind surrendered when Adam fell in sin.

I don't think that's the same as God making or not making the choice for forgiveness and salvation for us, but making the choice possible as he gives the faith to do that. For as someone has already pointed out, many are called but few are chosen. The calling goes out to many, but few respond. Some simply reject what God enables them to know is true about salvation and the judgment to come.

 

[for_his_glory]

Would you disagree then, with my quote you quoted?

No, I do not disagree with scripture, but I do believe it is the generational sin of our lineage (Satan's deceit through the flesh)that even though God created each of us, Jew or Gentile, we were all born or destined to sin and those who choose to stay in sin God already knew which ones would and this is where God had already hardened their hearts, but yet longsuffering for them to repent of there sin and come back to His grace.



Galatians 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Romans 9:
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[Butch5]

This might ultimately get moved, or locked, or computers might just get thrown through windows, but I thought it'd be fun to post it anyway with a bold statement to say that NO ONE MAKES CHOICES. We only think we do, but all we are actually doing in life is stepping into our own fates to-which there is no alternative.

I've brought this up before, and some of my friends hate it, but others have started to see it as true also.

BALDERDASH! , you say? (or whatever you say to reflect Senseless talk or writing; nonsense) :

Well then what do you say?

In Romans Paul says that the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. It was this idea, the teaching that all things are fated that he was talking about