*** No one actually makes choices

[Gordon]

Yhea It's a matter of perspective. I think of how Jesus had to be told John was beheaded and what that implies. Why did Jesus choose to forget this or does only the father see the entire future? I think it's more empowering to believe that God chooses to not live outside of us and instead is with us sharing in our hopes as they happen in some way. It would also explain some things. Maybe not the most important theology but it would explain some stuff. I'm just not sure if it's true and thats what really matters.

 

[rrowell]

Yhea It's a matter of perspective. I think of how Jesus had to be told John was beheaded and what that implies. Why did Jesus choose to forget this or does only the father see the entire future? I think it's more empowering to believe that God chooses to not live outside of us and instead is with us sharing in our hopes as they happen in some way. It would also explain some things. Maybe not the most important theology but it would explain some stuff. I'm just not sure if it's true and thats what really matters.

Look at the broad picture, predestination is only biblical in two points in time, he said "I am Alpha and Omega" the beginning and the ending are predestined, everything in between is dependent on the relationship every man has with his creator.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yhea but you guys aren't answering the question. Even if we made the choices doesn't God knowing it make it cease to be a choice. Isn't a choice something that can go different ways? I think this was what he was trying to prove. Once God saw it didn't it become fixed?

If it ceases to be a choice on man's part then what man does has been predetermined by God. So Hitler did not murder seven million people, God did. The Jews did not murder Christ, God did.

An old example is one where you are sitting on top of a mountain with a train track that circles around the bottom of one side of the mountain. You look to your left and a train is coming. You look to your right a train is coming. They are both coming at each other on the same track and by the time they get around the curve in the track and see each other it will be too late to stop the trains before they collide. You foreknow the wreck that is about to happen but you in no way predetemined it. The wreck may be "fixed" in that nothing can stop it but you did not predetermine it to happen.

 

[Gordon]

If it ceases to be a choice on man's part then what man does has been predetermined by God. So Hitler did not murder seven million people, God did. The Jews did not murder Christ, God did.

An old example is one where you are sitting on top of a mountain with a train track that circles around the bottom of one side of the mountain. You look to your left and a train is coming. You look to your right a train is coming. They are both coming at each other on the same track and by the time they get around the curve in the track and see each other it will be too late to stop the trains before they collide. You foreknow the wreck that is about to happen but you in no way predetemined it. The wreck may be "fixed" in that nothing can stop it but you did not predetermine it to happen.

I don't agree. If I had the ability to see the future and saw you ate a turkey sandwich for dinner a couple days from now that would not mean I determined you ate that sandwich. I just saw it happen. But as I later watched you eat it I wouldn't say you had just made the choice to eat it. To me it would just be a fact of the past I knew what was going to happen. It would have only been a choice for you as I first watched you eat it. You can't make a choice in the past. Before I knew you could have ate anything but I had nothing to do with it. I guess I'm being a little silly with this.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't agree. If I had the ability to see the future and saw you ate a turkey sandwich for dinner a couple days from now that would not mean I determined you ate that sandwich. I just saw it happen. But as I later watched you eat it I wouldn't say you had just made the choice to eat it. To me it would just be a fact of the past I knew what was going to happen. It would have only been a choice for you as I first watched you eat it. You can't make a choice in the past. Before I knew you could have ate anything but I had nothing to do with it. I guess I'm being a little silly with this.

You're atop a mountain and foreknow a train wreck is about to happen, is your foreknowledge of the wreck causing it to happen? No. If "yes", how?


I have a package I need to get to NYC next week. I have the ablity to foreknow that you have made plans to go to NYC next week. So I give my package to you to take with you to NYC. I used my foreknowledge of YOUR choice to go to NYC to accomplish my will, but in no way did I forced you against your will to go to NYC for that was your choice.


If I could foreknow that if given a choice between a ham sandwich and a turkey sandwich, I foreknow you would choose the turkey, then I do not see how I determined you to eat what you chose for yourself to eat. My foreknowing your choice did not determine it. You could have chosen the ham sandwich, and I would have foreknown that too. So it would not matter which sandwich you choose for I would already foreknow but it was still YOUR choice. If you had a choice of 10 different sandwiches, it does not matter which one YOU CHOOSE for I already know. YOU choose it, I already know it. (I don't know if this helps you to understand where I am coming from.)

God foreknew that if He sent Christ among those Jews, they of their own will would choose to murder Christ. I simply do not see how God foreknowing what choice they would make determined they make that choice.


If foreknowing means predetermining then the Jews could only do what God predetermined them to do, so you have the problem of God committing the murder and not the Jews.

 

[Gordon]

You're atop a mountain and foreknow a train wreck is about to happen, is your foreknowledge of the wreck causing it to happen? No. If "yes", how?


I have a package I need to get to NYC next week. I have the ablity to foreknow that you have made plans to go to NYC next week. So I give my package to you to take with you to NYC. I used my foreknowledge of YOUR choice to go to NYC to accomplish my will, but in no way did I forced you against your will to go to NYC for that was your choice.


If I could foreknow that if given a choice between a ham sandwich and a turkey sandwich, I foreknow you would choose the turkey, then I do not see how I determined you to eat what you chose for yourself to eat. My foreknowing your choice did not determine it. You could have chosen the ham sandwich, and I would have foreknown that too. So it would not matter which sandwich you choose for I would already foreknow but it was still YOUR choice. (I don't know if this helps you to understand where I am coming from.)

God foreknew that if He sent Christ among those Jews, they of their own will would choose to murder Christ. I simply do not see how God foreknowing what choice they would make determined they make that choice.


If foreknowing means predetermining then the Jews could only do what God predetermined them to do, so you have the problem of God committing the murder and not the Jews.

I think this is officially silly now but fun. First question is no. Knowing it does not mean you caused it.

Second paragraph. This is interesting. If you look into the future you would also know if you had ultimately given me the package or not. But could you not give me the package instead and change the future? I think it's a paradox. You can't see the future if knowing the future could alter the future. If you saw you died in a car accident couldn't you just never get in a car? In that case you never saw the future it isn't fixed.

Third paragraph I agree in that moment it was a choice because it wasn't fixed. After you later watch me do what you saw me do it's no longer a choice it's a fact of the past it has been forseen unless the fact you saw it somehow changed it. Like you steal one sandwich the one I would have picked.

Fourth your right it doesn't. It's not that he knew if or determined it he just saw it which meant it already happened and it was made. I see your point it's not a problem you are right.

I'm not saying God is limited in how we would be in a paradox of seeing the future.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think this is officially silly now but fun. First question is no. Knowing it does not mean you caused it.

Foreknowing does not mean you caused it.

Second paragraph. This is interesting. If you look into the future you would also know if you had ultimately given me the package or not. But could you not give me the package instead and change the future? I think it's a paradox. You can't see the future if knowing the future could alter the future. If you saw you died in a car accident couldn't you just never get in a car? In that case you never saw the future it isn't fixed.

You could have NOT chosen to go to NYC, in that case I would have gotten someone else I foreknow would choose to go to NYC that week. But you of your own will did choose to go, so I used you and YOUR choice.




You say "If you saw you died in a car accident couldn't you just never get in a car?"

I would foreknew the date that car accident would happen, say Sept 5, 2021. I would still get in cars just not on that date, I would just stay in bed that day. Of course a car would veer off the road across the yard and through the wall of the bedroom and hit the bed I am laying in.


Gen 18:19 "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

The last part of this verse shows that God foreknew that Abraham would obey Him enough that God would be able to bring about the promises He made about Abraham. If Abraham would not have been faithful enough for God to bring about those promises, then God would have chosen someone else. Certainly God, armed with foreknowledge, would not purposely choose someone that would disobey whereby God could not bring about those promises. So obeying was simply a matter of Abraham's choice and God used that choice to accomplish His will with Abraham. And after Abraham obeyed, Abraham was only doing what he chose to do not waht God made him do. So God never had to predetermine/force Abraham to obey for he chose to do that himself.

Why did God choose Jacob over Esau? God did not choose Esau for He foreknew that Esau would be a "profane" person yet God did not make him profane or make him change, God simply choose someone else (Jacob) that He would be able to use. But nowhere did God force/predetemine anything on anyone.

Third paragraph I agree in that moment it was a choice because it wasn't fixed. After you later watch me do what you saw me do it's no longer a choice it's a fact of the past it has been forseen unless the fact you saw it somehow changed it. Like you steal one sandwich the one I would have picked.

Since it was not a fixed choice, it was not predetemined.

You have 10 different sandwiches to choose from and right now it does not matter which one you choose for I will already foreknow it, but it is still YOUR choice. You can change your mind 10 times, and I will still already know which one you will choose.

Fourth your right it doesn't. It's not that he knew if or determined it he just saw it which meant it already happened and it was made. I see your point it's not a problem you are right.

I'm not saying God is limited in how we would be in a paradox of seeing the future.

It comes down to either man chose to some thing of his own free will or God made man do some thing thereby making God the one culpable.

 

[Gordon]

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. However if you saw what sandwich I pick you might for instance laugh upon seeing me about to pick it. I might then change my mind and you never saw the future. Seeing it means it's not fixed. I doubt this would be a problem for God as he could be congruent or avoid this problem entirely by seeing all possibilities.

I'm saying that if you knew what sandwich I was going to pick I only made the choice when you saw me make it in your vision. Choice as in it could have went one of many ways. Isn't it that fact we already experienced the past that it cannot be changed. If God has already experienced our choices we already made them. You can't say I'm making a choice I already made. If you ate the turkey yesterday you can not choose to eat the chicken yesterday. It's locked in. See what I am saying?

 

[Gordon]

I currently believe God doesn't know the future in a definite sense. He can predict with amazing accuracy as he knows all past and present things to know. He can also make anything happen that he wills. This would explain Satans rebellion he thought he could out manuever God like a chess game. When God said to Abraham now I know you fear God he didn't know until right then. I also think there is nothing to know as it hasn't happen yet.

If God ordained everything then everything bad is God's causing. Also when he gets mad he is the one making himself mad. When he gets jealous he is the one making himself jealous. It wouldn't be very rational of God. It would also mean life is just a play thats already over. We are just getting to see what part God gave us as reality.

If God knows everything but there is still freewill then we are like getting a test back the next day. Reality is just getting to see the choices we already made on a moment to moment basis. I don't think this.

I think my beliefs mean that when you pray to God things can turn out in a different way. If I give a poor man a Bible things can turn out a different way. Everything matters and prayer is very important.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I currently believe God doesn't know the future in a definite sense. He can predict with amazing accuracy as he knows all past and present things to know.

Is God 92% accurate with a margin of error of +-3%

Isa 46:9,10 "Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

He can also make anything happen that he wills.

As long as it falls within His own nature for God will not do anything that violates His own nature.

 

[Gordon]

Is God 92% accurate with a margin of error of +-3%

Isa 46:9,10 "Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Good point. Maybe it's more like the getting a test back the next day. I wonder why God would say things like Jeremiah 18 about God reconsidering the Good he
intended if a Nation does evil. Maybe he knows all the future and chooses to act exactly the same as when he originally made every decision? It's really amazing how God chooses to interact with us and present himself. I guess I got way off topic.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Good point. Maybe it's more like the getting a test back the next day. I wonder why God would say things like Jeremiah 18 about God reconsidering the Good he
intended if a Nation does evil. Maybe he knows all the future and chooses to act exactly the same as when he originally made every decision? It's really amazing how God chooses to interact with us and present himself. I guess I got way off topic.

Jonah 3:10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not."



Nineveh was in disobedience to God so God would destroy them unless they repent. Nineveh chose to repent so man changed - not God for God held to His unchanging law of Jer 18:8,10 which says "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." God deals conditionally with man and not unconditionally as Calvinism wrongly teaches.

http://apologeticspress.com/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=1166

 

[Gordon]

It makes me curious how stuff actually works. Like when God warned Nineveh as he forsaw it he instantly knew they would repent they made that decision. Now for us when Nineveh was warned God knew they would repent if he warned them. So if he would have instead said you will repent and I will forgive things might have turned out differently. Like they might have thought that's good and continued on sinning. So that must mean God decides the ideal situations for us as he knows all.

Now that would make you wonder isn't it really a limited choice we are making as God has seen how we will react to anything. Like if I am trying to prove Butter Pecan is the best ice cream and ask one guy I know will say Butter Pecan is the best ice cream then everything is still my will even though that one person made the choice. So that would mean we have free will but only as God allows and decides.