No Pretrib Rapture

[for_his_glory]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation, but only 3 1/2 years during the sounding of the seventh trumpet. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Three key verses from Revelation have revealed who goes into the Great Tribulation - the unrepentant ones from the corrupt church of Thyatira, along with the carnal ones from the lukewarm church of Laodicea, and who doesn't - the devoted ones from the faithful church of Philadelphia. The "capture the rapture" dispensationalists often quote Rev. 3:10, but they never preach the warning in 2:22 and 3:16. 2:22 is pretty much a guaranteed fate of suffering the great tribulation, and 3:16 indicates a Rom. 1:24 judgement - "God giving them up to uncleanness and the lust of their hearts." What makes you so sure that you belong to Philadelphia and not Thyatira or Laodicea? What if I end up in Smyrna, as I'm persecuted to death by the government for my faith? That would probably put me into the category of the dead covered in 1 Thess. 4:16 - "the dead shall rise first", instead of "those who are alive" in 1 Thess. 4:17, wouldn't it? You have to see the big picture and take all these scenarios into consideration, and that's what's missing in the rapture doctrine. It presents a distorted view of the end times and gives a false hope that has almost replaced the blood salvation.

Indeed I will cast her (Jezebel) into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. (Rev. 2:22)
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)
Because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Rev. 3:16)

 

[for_his_glory]

Three key verses from Revelation have revealed who goes into the Great Tribulation - the unrepentant ones from the corrupt church of Thyatira, along with the carnal ones from the lukewarm church of Laodicea, and who doesn't - the devoted ones from the faithful church of Philadelphia. The "capture the rapture" dispensationalists often quote Rev. 3:10, but they never preach the warning in 2:22 and 3:16. 2:22 is pretty much a guaranteed fate of suffering the great tribulation, and 3:16 indicates a Rom. 1:24 judgement - "God giving them up to uncleanness and the lust of their hearts." What makes you so sure that you belong to Philadelphia and not Thyatira or Laodicea? What if I end up in Smyrna, as I'm persecuted to death by the government for my faith? That would probably put me into the category of the dead covered in 1 Thess. 4:16 - "the dead shall rise first", instead of "those who are alive" in 1 Thess. 4:17, wouldn't it? You have to see the big picture and take all these scenarios into consideration, and that's what's missing in the rapture doctrine. It presents a distorted view of the end times and gives a false hope that has almost replaced the blood salvation.

Indeed I will cast her (Jezebel) into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. (Rev. 2:22)
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)
Because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Rev. 3:16)

Thank you for your reply.

 

[for_his_glory]

A rapture as some like to call it, but the Bible calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, will take place, but not the way others are teaching it to be before a Great 7 year Tribulation, which the seven years are also a false teaching not found in scripture, but only a 3 1/2 year tribulation. No one will know the day or the hour of Christ return, Matthew 24:36, but scripture does give us signs to watch for, especially Matthew 24:29-31. There is no mention in scripture of a great seven year tribulation as we will always have tribulations until Jesus comes for us. There is no literal 1000-year reign with Christ either, because we reign with Christ the first time we ask him into our heart as we become joint heirs with him. We will face much tribulation before Jesus returns as Gods word says this world will wax worse and those who endure until the end are those who will be saved, which means the end of all things this world will go through including God's great wrath to come before the new heaven and new Jerusalem can be ushered down from heaven. Matthew 24:36, 37; Deuteronomy 4:29-31; Matthew 24:21; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:17; Matthew 24:13.

God's great wrath during the sounding of the seven trumpets in Revelations is poured out into the world in hopes all would turn back to Him as He would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9. This is the ending of God's long suffering and patience like that of Sodom and Gomorrah, Genesis 18, 19. We are kept by God during these times of temptation during His great wrath that we not turn away from Him, but stand strong in faith that is Christ Jesus and our promised inheritance of the kingdom of God, 1 Peter 1:5-23. We are not to fear that which must come first nor what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28, and also forewarned to flee when we see the abomination that causes desolation that Daniel in Daniel Chapter 7spoke of, Matthew 24:15-21, Rev 13. God does not want us to fear those things which must come, but be prepared for those things which have to come first before Christ returns. If we are truly indwelled and sealed by the Spirit of God through repentance and faith that is Christ Jesus then we need not fear what man can do to the flesh as we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. We have died to self and we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. We will be the witness of Christ to the world when the last of the abominations take place and our only concern needs to be of us being the witness to the nations that God has called us to be.

It is so imperative to understand the full context of scripture so we will not be taken as a thief in the night when Jesus returns on the last day with His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21. (Note: No saints return with Him as no one has ever died and ascended up to heaven other than Christ who descended down from heaven to seek and save the lost, John 3:13-21. At that time every eye will see Him come in the clouds the same way He ascended up to heaven, even those who pierced Him, Acts 1:11; Rev 1:7. Notice where it says even those who pierced Him as they are even now in their grave. On the last day after the seventh trumpet has sounded and the beast and false prophet are destroyed and cast into the lake of fire Satan is then bound for a time as the one and only resurrection of all who are in their grave will hear His voice calling them to come forth out of them. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29; 6:40.

At the great white throne judgement Jesus will be seated on His throne of glory as God commits all judgment unto the Son, John 5:22. The books will be opened, including the Lamb's book of life, and all will be judged as Jesus will then gather all nations (people) before Him and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. The sheep will hear Jesus say: "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world". The goats will hear Jesus say: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels", Matthew 25:31-46.

Pretrib teachers twist and add to Rev 4:1, 2 to show we are caught up to Jesus before the great tribulation (God's great wrath). This is a deceptive teaching as it is only John being caught up in the Spirit while being a prisoner on the isle of Patmos as he sees a vision of a door opening before him. The first voice he heard speaking to him was that of great power and authority similar to the powerful sound a trumpet makes. The voice tells John to draw in closer to Gods Spirit to see the visions of those things that are yet future. After hearing this voice John was immediately immersed (slain) in the Holy Spirit and the visions were revealed to him. Being slain in the Spirit is like those disciples in John 18:6 who fell backwards when they realized the Spirit of Christ as being the I Am. It's also like that of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus in Acts 9:3-8. Many, including myself, that have ever experienced this knows what I am talking about.

There is no mention in scripture about a so called secret quiet rapture or a second chance after the saints of God are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. Jesus will descend with a shout and with the trump of God. This does not sound like it's going to be a quiet so called rapture does it. And every eye will see him and every knee will bow saints and those who choose to reject Jesus. The Holy Spirit dwells in us the believers and isn't something that just floats around in the air so for this reason when we are taken up so is the Holy Spirit giving no one a second chance because we are sealed by Gods Spirit for Salvation, Ephesians 1:13-14 and after the Spirit is taken up no one has a second chance.

1Thessalonians 4:16 for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

2Corinthians 1:21 Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[miamited]

Hi for_his_glory

God's great wrath during the sounding of the seven trumpets in Revelations is poured out into the world in hopes all would turn back to Him as He would that none should perish,

While I do agree with you that the teaching of the snatching up to the Lord in the air is not pre-tribulation, I don't agree that the seven trumpets are intended to turn anyone back to God. By the time we get to the trumpets, the catching up has already occurred. Jesus comes to collect his in chapter 14 of the Revelation and then the rest of the earth is gathered up and thrown into the winepress of God's wrath. That's the trumpet and bowl release of God's pent up wrath. Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life are already safely away by that time.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

miamited here is what will happen during the seven trumpets.

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14.

God's protection is absolute to those who escape into the wilderness and trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth. Then in Rev 19 the marriage supper of the Lamb, those who will be caught up to Christ will happen when He returns with his army of angels and sends them out to gather us to Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns on the last day, John 5:28-29; 6:40.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be another meteor or even a series of meteors sent down from heaven at one time, but on an extremely larger scale as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will try and wear out the saints then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[miamited]

Hey for_his_glory

Well, I'm not completely on board with all of what you post here. Not all of the Revelation of Jesus is chronological, but for the most part, I believe it to be so. Jesus returns to gather those who are his in chapter 14. Then chap. 14 ends with everyone else left after Jesus culls his from the world, to suffer the wrath of God. Now God's word has already promised believers that they will not suffer God's wrath. They are not children due His wrath.

Then, in chapter 15 we are introduced to the angels that are holding the bowls of God's wrath to be poured out and bring plague and pestilence and suffering upon those that the second creature set into the winepress of God's wrath. In chapter 16 we have the actual release of the bowls of God's wrath that the seven angels have been holding upon the earth and all of the pestilence, plague and suffering that then comes upon those who were 'left behind'.

If you really would like to get a feel for the continuity of the action, get rid of all the chapter and verse notations and just read the text. That's what God gave us. This is one long text written out. It is not a book with chapter and verse divisions in its original writing. So we read that the two creatures came upon the earth and harvested two groups of people. Then it immediately follows that we are told what happens to the second group of people who were cast into God's wrath. As I understand the Scriptures, from the time that Jesus returns to collect those who are his, until the 1000-year millennial reign, there will be no salvation available to mankind. All those people who are poured into the winepress of God's wrath will die upon the earth and then God will send those of the first resurrection into the millennial reign of Jesus upon the earth.

However, I do agree that the gathering of those that Jesus will collect does not come before the days of great tribulation like has never been seen before or ever will be.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

miamited here is what will happen during the seven trumpets.

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14.

God's protection is absolute to those who escape into the wilderness and trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth. Then in Rev 19 the marriage supper of the Lamb, those who will be caught up to Christ will happen when He returns with his army of angels and sends them out to gather us to Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns on the last day, John 5:28-29; 6:40.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be another meteor or even a series of meteors sent down from heaven at one time, but on an extremely larger scale as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will try and wear out the saints then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.

One thing we should keep in mind is that Revelation may not be narrating in a chronological order, I believe that the seven trumpets and seven bowls are parallel accounts, one from a heavenly perspective, one from an earthly perspective; likewise, the seven seals and the seven signs (woman, child, dragon, Michael the archangel, the sea beast, the earth beast and the 144,000 before the Lamb) also. When the seventh trumpet sounds, the kingdom is proclaimed, God's wrath has been poured out, and the dead judged, game over. That doesn't make any sense if it immediately circles back to the beginning of the Great Tribulation where the dragon was thrown out of heaven and the beast rose from the sea.

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)

 

[Consecrated Life]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation, but only 3 1/2 years during the sounding of the seventh trumpet. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until

To tie any future world event to the Lord's expressly stated imminent gathering of His elect is to show yourself fundamentally lacking in spiritual discernment.


Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.


Mat 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[for_his_glory]

One thing we should keep in mind is that Revelation may not be narrating in a chronological order, I believe that the seven trumpets and seven bowls are parallel accounts, one from a heavenly perspective, one from an earthly perspective; likewise, the seven seals and the seven signs (woman, child, dragon, Michael the archangel, the sea beast, the earth beast and the 144,000 before the Lamb) also. When the seventh trumpet sounds, the kingdom is proclaimed, God's wrath has been poured out, and the dead judged, game over. That doesn't make any sense if it immediately circles back to the beginning of the Great Tribulation where the dragon was thrown out of heaven and the beast rose from the sea.

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)

The seven trumpets are chronological in their soundings and when the seventh is sounded it has no ending like the first six as it leads up to the coming of the son of perdition, the seven vial judgements to all who took the mark of this beast and then the return of Christ. This, starting with the first trumpet to the seventh includes everything we read from Rev 8:6-Rev 22.

Many try to put a time frame around the seven trumpets saying it's a seven year tribulation period, but this is not found in scripture. There is no time frame from the first to the seventh up until Christ returns.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The seven trumpets are chronological in their soundings and when the seventh is sounded it has no ending like the first six as it leads up to the coming of the son of perdition, the seven vial judgements to all who took the mark of this beast and then the return of Christ. This, starting with the first trumpet to the seventh includes everything we read from Rev 8:6-Rev 22.

Many try to put a time frame around the seven trumpets saying it's a seven year tribulation period, but this is not found in scripture. There is no time frame from the first to the seventh up until Christ returns.

But if you do read it in a chronological order, then it would be added up to seven years - first 3.5 years mentioned in Rev. 11 and 12, the second 3.5 years in Rev. 13. If it’s only 3.5 years, then there must be parallel accounts, all five mentions of 3.5 years must point to the same period.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hey for_his_glory

Well, I'm not completely on board with all of what you post here. Not all of the Revelation of Jesus is chronological, but for the most part, I believe it to be so. Jesus returns to gather those who are his in chapter 14. Then chap. 14 ends with everyone else left after Jesus culls his from the world, to suffer the wrath of God. Now God's word has already promised believers that they will not suffer God's wrath. They are not children due His wrath.

Then, in chapter 15 we are introduced to the angels that are holding the bowls of God's wrath to be poured out and bring plague and pestilence and suffering upon those that the second creature set into the winepress of God's wrath. In chapter 16 we have the actual release of the bowls of God's wrath that the seven angels have been holding upon the earth and all of the pestilence, plague and suffering that then comes upon those who were 'left behind'.

If you really would like to get a feel for the continuity of the action, get rid of all the chapter and verse notations and just read the text. That's what God gave us. This is one long text written out. It is not a book with chapter and verse divisions in its original writing. So we read that the two creatures came upon the earth and harvested two groups of people. Then it immediately follows that we are told what happens to the second group of people who were cast into God's wrath. As I understand the Scriptures, from the time that Jesus returns to collect those who are his, until the 1000-year millennial reign, there will be no salvation available to mankind. All those people who are poured into the winepress of God's wrath will die upon the earth and then God will send those of the first resurrection into the millennial reign of Jesus upon the earth.

However, I do agree that the gathering of those that Jesus will collect does not come before the days of great tribulation like has never been seen before or ever will be.

God bless,
Ted

I tried to nut shell this as best I could, but if you want the full I have a book I wrote on Revelations in the end time forum under the subtitle Revelation. It's called The Unveiling. You will have to scroll to find all the chapters. There is just to much to put into this thread.

The numbering of the trumpets 1-7 is chronological and you are right as these are letters without chapter and verse, or even punctuation as this is how I study scripture, but give book, chapter and verse so others can go find and read them. Everything is set in God's timing and order of events.

The events in Rev 14 comes after the 3 1/2 years of the beast out of the sea and out of the earth in Rev 13 that comes with many lying signs and wonders will cause all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death for not denouncing Christ and bowing down to this false god, Rev 13:15; 20:4.

Rev 15 -16 we have the calling of the seven angels each with a vial of the seven plagues as they begin to pour them out as we read what each vial causes to happen to those who took the mark of the beast.

Rev 17 gives us the description of the great prostitute and the beast, which is an extensive study on its own that I will not get into in this thread.

Rev 18 teaches us about the fall of Babylon and all who have made themselves rich off of her.

Rev 19 There is great rejoicing in heaven as then it is time for the marriage supper of the Lamb as Christ will return at that time with His army of angels who are then sent out to gather all who are His own to Him to meet Him in the air as Jesus fights the final battle that scripture calls the battle of Armageddon

Rev 20 The Thousand Years, The Defeat of Satan, Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

After that of the beast, false prophet and all those political leaders from every nation have been revealed and destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Satan is bound for a thousand years as he can no longer deceive the nations anymore and after the thousand years are fulfilled he will be set loose for a short amount of time. Satan will the gather all nations for the final battle against the saints that are now with Christ, but Satan's army will be consumed by fire that God sends down from heaven and then Satan cast into the lake of fire.

I do not see the thousand years being literal after Satan is bound even though a thousand is written. I believe it is symbolic or figurative number like that of Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:3-5; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8. But again, this is another thread and will not discuss it here.

We do not enter the Millennial Kingdom here on earth in our natural bodies, but in new glorified bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. When Christ returns in the air we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord as He has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth as we rule with Him over the nations as His enemies have become His footstool in the end of days, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Rev 5:10; Psalms 110:1-4; Hebrews 10:12, 13.

Satan will be restrained so he can not interfere with the ungodly people that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and the saints will begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.

Rev 21-22 I combined these two chapters into one as 22 continues where 21 left off in the descriptions of the New Jerusalem and we being in the kingdom of God called the New Jerusalem. I am not listing the verses in this chapter as you can read through them as I give explanation between the literal and symbolic of the descriptions given.

Revelation Chapter 21-22 is very symbolic in the character and quality of the holy city “New Jerusalem” as no one could even fathom what it will look like. The description is that of the nature of this glorious kingdom of God where His true church, being the Bride of Christ, will dwell with Her Bridegroom for eternity basking in the glory of the Lord.

 

[for_his_glory]

One thing we should keep in mind is that Revelation may not be narrating in a chronological order, I believe that the seven trumpets and seven bowls are parallel accounts, one from a heavenly perspective, one from an earthly perspective; likewise, the seven seals and the seven signs (woman, child, dragon, Michael the archangel, the sea beast, the earth beast and the 144,000 before the Lamb) also. When the seventh trumpet sounds, the kingdom is proclaimed, God's wrath has been poured out, and the dead judged, game over. That doesn't make any sense if it immediately circles back to the beginning of the Great Tribulation where the dragon was thrown out of heaven and the beast rose from the sea.

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)

IMO, I believe we are in the beginning of sorrows as explained by Jesus in Matthew 24:4-8 heading closely to the seven trumpets sounding, ending with the 3 1/2 years of the son of perdition ruling power here on earth. Then things will come quickly when Jesus comes to destroy the beast and false prophet with the brightness of His coming, 2Thessalonians 2.

If you notice the first six trumpets have a beginning and an ending, but the seventh has no ending until Jesus returns on the last day and makes an end to all abominations here on earth then making everything new again. It's all in God's timing.

 

[for_his_glory]

To tie any future world event to the Lord's expressly stated imminent gathering of His elect is to show yourself fundamentally lacking in spiritual discernment.

What is lacking about future events is not reading what Jesus has already said about the timing of His return as even He does not know, but God only. It will be like the flood in Noah's day as many will perish not having truth found in them as they reject God and His Son Christ Jesus.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[for_his_glory]

But if you do read it in a chronological order, then it would be added up to seven years - first 3.5 years mentioned in Rev. 11 and 12, the second 3.5 years in Rev. 13. If it’s only 3.5 years, then there must be parallel accounts, all five mentions of 3.5 years must point to the same period.

Read 2Thessalonians 2.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 1/2 years or 3 Times as the Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 1/2 years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30-31; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

There are three woes in Revelations as each one is worse than the other. The first one starts with the opening of the seventh seal in Rev 8:1 through Rev 9:12 that include the first five trumpets. The second woe starts in Rev 9:13 with the sixth trumpet and ends in Rev 11:14. The third woe starts with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 ending in Rev 20:15.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

IMO, I believe we are in the beginning of sorrows as explained by Jesus in Matthew 24:4-8 heading closely to the seven trumpets sounding, ending with the 3 1/2 years of the son of perdition ruling power here on earth. Then things will come quickly when Jesus comes to destroy the beast and false prophet with the brightness of His coming, 2Thessalonians 2.

If you notice the first six trumpets have a beginning and an ending, but the seventh has no ending until Jesus returns on the last day and makes an end to all abominations here on earth then making everything new again. It's all in God's timing.

But there is an ending in the seventh bowl judgement. The seventh trumpet seems to be describing the same apocalyptic scenario.

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev. 11:19)

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great. (Rev. 16:17-21)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Read 2Thessalonians 2.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 1/2 years or 3 Times as the Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 1/2 years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30-31; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

There are three woes in Revelations as each one is worse than the other. The first one starts with the opening of the seventh seal in Rev 8:1 through Rev 9:12 that include the first five trumpets. The second woe starts in Rev 9:13 with the sixth trumpet and ends in Rev 11:14. The third woe starts with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 ending in Rev 20:15.

Dude, I'm arguing AGAINST the seven year tribulation narrative, not for it. The three and half years period is mentioned five times in Revelation (11:2, 11:3, 12:6, 12:13, 13:5), and this judgement could be traced back to the dought in ancient Israel during king Ahab's reign. If the end time tribulation is a replay of that, then all five mentions must be the same three and a half years, not two different periods, can we at least agree on that?

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. (James 5:17)

 

[Consecrated Life]

What is lacking about future events is not reading what Jesus has already said about the timing of His return as even He does not know, but God only. It will be like the flood in Noah's day as many will perish not having truth found in them as they reject God and His Son Christ Jesus.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Exactly that is why there can be no worldwide event prior such as a tribulation to mark the point people would then know He is coming.
There would be no surprise at that point ,just anticipation .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Exactly that is why there can be no worldwide event prior such as a tribulation to mark the point people would then know He is coming.
There would be no surprise at that point ,just anticipation .

Or exactly there MUST be worldwide events, as the Lord has warned. No one knows the day or the hour simply means no date setting, but the signs are showing, and we of all people must be able to discern these signs, instead of being foolish and ignorant, and using "no one knows the day" as an excuse. If no one's supposed to know, then why are all these apocalyptic signs given?

Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! (Matt. 24:32-33)

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4)

 

[Consecrated Life]

Or exactly there MUST be worldwide events, as the Lord has warned. No one knows the day or the hour simply means no date setting, but the signs are showing, and we of all people must be able to discern these signs, instead of being foolish and ignorant, and using "no one knows the day" as an excuse. If no one's supposed to know, then why are all these apocalyptic signs given?

The Tribulation beginning however is not a sign, it is an event , that is why I specifically said there can be no beginning of the Tribulation prior to the Lord gathering His elect .
Everyone would know at that point He was coming.