No Pretrib Rapture

[eddif]

I don't know how many times I've cited our Lord saying believers are already protected from any harm. They always have been

The seals are being removed from a scroll. As the seals are removed, what's being exposed is rest of The Book of Revelation. The scroll is unveiling our Savior to us in the midst of calamity.

Babylon is labled the "mother of prostitues" and responsible for the "blood of all Gods' prophets." So this isn't not just a future entity that appears at the "end" of time, but an ancient one. Same for Gog and Magog.

The 144,000 are the firstfruits to God, believers who with purity preached to the world what the next 3 angels oroclaim.

These symbols are showing Christs' dominance on earth throughout history. The destroying horsemen are no different .

All of a sudden I have s/some questions?
Not totally tied to your post.

Do the 4 beasts of our nature ?
Lead to seven seals that must be broken?
Do the unexplained thunders explain our needs?

I only have a hint of what I just asked.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Consecrated Life]

I really do not know why this point is repeated other than letting us know it will happen. "Why" is usually a motive question and I cannot presume to always know the Lord's motive. Perhaps you have an insight or good guess you might share?

Something to consider.
The subject matter of the thread being " No Pretrib Rapture"
The frustration from those positing "No Pretrib Rapture" to make application of Jesus's prophecy of the catching up being witnessed by those left behind to a Posttrib scenario is obvious.
Jesus's prophecy cannot be made to fit a Posttrib Rapture in any sensible way based on Biblical precedent .
Little wonder then the desire to put this important rapture prophecy of Jesus on a shelf and make it off limits for discussion.
However the same prophecy of Jesus does have application , and fits very well with biblical precedent , to a PreTrib Rapture.
Pretrib Rapture allows for the application of Jesus's prophecy based on biblical precedent concerning the catching up to God by witnesses fits very nicely with God's method demonstrated in other scripture.
To try and make Jesus's same prophecy fit a Post-Trib scenario is like trying pound a square peg into a round hole .
It just cannot be made to fit .

 

[journeymanisnothing]

All of a sudden I have s/some questions?
Not totally tied to your post.

Do the 4 beasts of our nature ?

If you mean in Rev.4 I believe they represent Gods' nature in Creation as Christ appeared symbolically. They are in His midst (or better He within ours.)

Lead to seven seals that must be broken?

The scroll could not be understood without the resurrection of our Lord. After our Savior peels off the seventh seal, it's because His death is complete. I believe the silence which follows is in reverance to the way He overcame the hatred of those He created all the while loving sinners as mo one else can.

Do the unexplained thunders explain our needs?

I believe they do,

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. Rev.22:10 KJV

Time for salvation has always been at hand for true seekers of God.

I only have a hint of what I just asked.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Well redneck that goes for me too. I'm finding out I was taught many things in a reformed chuch that can't possibly be true, simply because scripture never contradicts itself where God and His nature is concerned.

 

[for_his_glory]

The witnessing of the catching up by the left behind as stressed by Jesus happens on the Day of the Lord it has been claimed.
Why then shouldn't the Spiritual lesson, implications of it be unpacked & looked into especially with the focus the Lord placed on this prophecy of the rapture ?

Luke 17:34
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

We have unpacked it and looked at and discussed it why Jesus said this. We are growing weary repeating ourselves over and over again with you. I have asked you a few times to move on, but you are fixated with this as almost being foolishness to keep pursuing this. We have explained this so many times and if this keeps up I will report you so please let it go.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't know how many times I've cited our Lord saying believers are already protected from any harm. They always have been

The seals are being removed from a scroll. As the seals are removed, what's being exposed is rest of The Book of Revelation. The scroll is unveiling our Savior to us in the midst of calamity.

Babylon is labled the "mother of prostitues" and responsible for the "blood of all Gods' prophets." So this isn't not just a future entity that appears at the "end" of time, but an ancient one. Same for Gog and Magog.

The 144,000 are the firstfruits to God, believers who with purity preached to the world what the next 3 angels oroclaim.

These symbols are showing Christs' dominance on earth throughout history. The destroying horsemen are no different .

I agree we are protected from God's wrath falling on us as this is going to be the greatest time of having a stronger faith and greater trust in the Lord until He returns on the last day.

Mystery Babylon in Rev 17 has been revealed to us within in the last of the four Empires with the last one that received a deadly wound in 1798 and it's wound was healed in 1929 and even now continues to work until all things have been fulfilled.

We will just have to disagree about the 144,000 and the horsemen as all of that needs to be another thread.

 

[for_his_glory]

Something to consider.
The subject matter of the thread being " No Pretrib Rapture"
The frustration from those positing "No Pretrib Rapture" to make application of Jesus's prophecy of the catching up being witnessed by those left behind to a Posttrib scenario is obvious.
Jesus's prophecy cannot be made to fit a Posttrib Rapture in any sensible way based on Biblical precedent .
Little wonder then the desire to put this important rapture prophecy of Jesus on a shelf and make it off limits for discussion.
However the same prophecy of Jesus does have application , and fits very well with biblical precedent , to a PreTrib Rapture.
Pretrib Rapture allows for the application of Jesus's prophecy based on biblical precedent concerning the catching up to God by witnesses fits very nicely with God's method demonstrated in other scripture.
To try and make Jesus's same prophecy fit a Post-Trib scenario is like trying pound a square peg into a round hole .
It just cannot be made to fit .

Please show us with scripture why you believe in a pretrib Rapture and remember to use the full context of scripture and not just one verse.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I agree we are protected from God's wrath falling on us as this is going to be the greatest time of having a stronger faith and greater trust in the Lord until He returns on the last day.

But what that means if it's true, (you and I have already believed and received this by faith) is that believers who died for their faith were the victors over those who killed them.
From a worldly view they were losers.

Mystery Babylon in Rev 17 has been revealed to us within in the last of the four Empires with the last one that received a deadly wound in 1798 and it's wound was healed in 1929 and even now continues to work until all things have been fulfilled.

I believe the deadly would occured when our King rose from death decreed by Pontius Pilate (Roman authority.) All the world wonders after the beasts kind of authority.

We will just have to disagree about the 144,000 and the horsemen as all of that needs to be another thread.

That's fine, but with the above it's paramount to understand how God compared His word to many things which are able to harm us (like fire.)
And since Jesus said words (both His and ours) would judge us in the last day) and we also know He's coming in raging fire, Rev.19 where the massive battle between our Lord and His disciples vs the beast and his army was won by us following the example of Jesus now. That is their blood was being spilled by the beast,

they over came him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev.12:11 KJV

Look at what he's really saying....by the Lambs blood...we spoke...and died like He did. But they overcame him... that way?

It seems upside down...backwards. Until we truly understand what it means to love people who despise us.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1 KJV

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb.12:4 KJV

 

[for_his_glory]

But what that means if it's true, (you and I have already believed and received this by faith) is that believers who died for their faith were the victors over those who killed them.
From a worldly view they were losers.

I believe the deadly would occured when our King rose from death decreed by Pontius Pilate (Roman authority.) All the world wonders after the beasts kind of authority.

That's fine, but with the above it's paramount to understand how God compared His word to many things which are able to harm us (like fire.)
And since Jesus said words (both His and ours) would judge us in the last day) and we also know He's coming in raging fire, Rev.19 where the massive battle between our Lord and His disciples vs the beast and his army was won by us following the example of Jesus now. That is their blood was being spilled by the beast,

they over came him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev.12:11 KJV

Look at what he's really saying....by the Lambs blood...we spoke...and died like He did. But they overcame him... that way?

It seems upside down...backwards. Until we truly understand what it means to love people who despise us.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1 KJV

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb.12:4 KJV

We agree with some things, but differ in others and that's OK as we are always learning. It's like the old saying "You snooze you lose". The important thing is to watch and be ready.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

We agree with some things, but differ in others and that's OK as we are always learning. It's like the old saying "You snooze you lose". The important thing is to watch and be ready.

It may be ok to disagree on certain matters, but not on signs which precede our Lord coming to us.
It makes no sense for Jesus to tell His disciples,

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Lk.10:19 KJV

He clearly said by faith in Him, His disciples are invincible, but later they were killed. This is the way scripture must be interpreted.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Please show us with scripture why you believe in a pretrib Rapture and remember to use the full context of scripture and not just one verse.

The Lord has stated that at the end of the tribulation the alarm bells & cosmic flashing lights for the world will ring with bells & Whistles & flashing neon signs of colossal proportion signaling He is at the door.
Namely there will be no more light.
The sun will go completely dark , and even the stars in the dark sky will disappear .

Mar 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Immediately following He comes with even more preliminary Almighty bells & Whistles:

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Even the most extreme mental gymnastics cannot make this cataclysmic arrival of the Lord complete with pre-arrival cosmic laser light show , comport to a coming that no one thinks will happen

Mat 24:44
in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Though I'm sure that I can expect the most astonishing & extreme of mental gymnastics are about to be employed in desperate effort.

 

[for_his_glory]

It may be ok to disagree on certain matters, but not on signs which precede our Lord coming to us.
It makes no sense for Jesus to tell His disciples,

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Lk.10:19 KJV

He clearly said by faith in Him, His disciples are invincible, but later they were killed. This is the way scripture must be interpreted.

I agree as Jesus gave us many signs to watch for in Matthew 24 making it very clear of those things which must come first before He returns and told us not to fear as they can kill the flesh, but never our soul. When we read what is written in Matthew 24:29- 31 will be the day of our redemption to all who are His own through the Spiritual rebirth indwelled with the Holy Spirit as we then endured all things.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Lord has stated that at the end of the tribulation the alarm bells & cosmic flashing lights for the world will ring with bells & Whistles & flashing neon signs of colossal proportion signaling He is at the door.

Show me where this is found in scripture as it is not written in Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[KV-44-v1]

For crying out loud let it go. You need to ask Jesus why He mentioned it three times. He was only giving three examples.

Seems like cant refute the Pretrib rapture now! Bible is superior to opinions!

 

[Consecrated Life]

The Lord has stated that at the end of the tribulation the alarm bells & cosmic flashing lights for the world will ring with bells & Whistles & flashing neon signs of colossal proportion signaling He is at the door.
Namely there will be no more light.
The sun will go completely dark , and even the stars in the dark sky will disappear .

Show me where this is found in scripture as it is not written in Matthew 24:29-31.

Mark 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

 

[for_his_glory]

Seems like cant refute the Pretrib rapture now! Bible is superior to opinions!

What many of us refute is that there is no pretrib Rapture according to scripture. None of what I give is my own opinion, but that of giving what has already been written in the scriptures. Are we going to believe man's theories, or are we going to believe what Christ has already taught us on this issue.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mark 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

I'm talking about what you wrote as in where does scripture say mention anything about the alarm bells & cosmic flashing lights for the world will ring with bells & Whistles & flashing neon signs of colossal proportion signaling He is at the door. What you gave with that scripture mentions none of this.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I'm talking about what you wrote as in where does scripture say mention anything about the alarm bells & cosmic flashing lights for the world will ring with bells & Whistles & flashing neon signs of colossal proportion signaling He is at the door. What you gave with that scripture mentions none of this.

The sun going black is not an alarming in your mind ?
Really ?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I agree as Jesus gave us many signs to watch for in Matthew 24 making it very clear of those things which must come first before He returns and told us not to fear as they can kill the flesh, but never our soul. When we read what is written in Matthew 24:29- 31 will be the day of our redemption to all who are His own through the Spiritual rebirth indwelled with the Holy Spirit as we then endured all things.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Mt.24:29 the Lord cited Joel. Peter did also in Acts 2:20, but Peter quoted it as happening back then.
The sun (Christ) being turned into darkness, looked at as evil... and the moon (the church, believers) being persecuted.

 

[Consecrated Life]

In Mt.24:29 the Lord cited Joel. Peter did also in Acts 2:20, but Peter quoted it as happening back then.
The sun (Christ) being turned into darkness, looked at as evil... and the moon (the church, believers) being persecuted.

"Shall Be " does not equate to " happening back then"
Peter is referring to the condition of sun & moon in a future Day of the Lord as being a WARNING & ALARM that not a rapture is at hand but a terrible judgement is at the door :

Act 2:19-20
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

 

[journeymanisnothing]

"Shall Be " does not equate to " happening back then"

They were quoting Joel who lived centuries before the Messiah and Peter were born on earth. "Shall be" in the future...from Joels' day.

Peter is referring to the condition of sun & moon in a future Day of the Lord as being a WARNING & ALARM that not a rapture is at hand but a terrible judgement is at the door :

It's both. It's judgment because mankind called our Lord evil, slandered Him. From a worldy view, a sign spoken against.
Then persecuting the church is turning the moon into blood.
The "rapture" isn't meeting our Lord in the physical sky, but seeing Him in us as He was sinned against.

Act 2:19-20
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

In other words.

For even here unto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21 KJV

Stars falling from heaven,

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God 2Cor.10:5 KJV

Binding evil spirits,

and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 2Cor..10:5 KJV

no one can, having entered into his house, plunder the goods of the strong man unless he first bind the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. Mk.3:27 KJV