No Pretrib Rapture

[Consecrated Life]

.......will find themselves either denouncing Christ and believing the signs and wonders and will take the mark of the beast out of fear, or die a martyr's death if they do not renounce Christ.

Nobody is forced to do anything until the anti-christ betrays the Jews, cuts off the daily sacrifice , desecrates the Temple. & declares himself to be god .
That's a yes or a no by the way ?
The whole point of receiving the "mark" is not bowing down to a human, but bowing down to one who claims to be god.
Until the anti-christ makes himself god there will be ample time for all Christians who know what is coming to make sure their lamps are full of oil and be on their best behavior .

 

[Consecrated Life]

The establishment of peace the anti-christ makes with Israel's enemies & beginning of Temple sacrifice will be a clear enough beginning of tribulation & will afford everybody plenty of time to get their house in order .

So, you do not think that the chaotic events of the first six trumpets that will destroy much of the earth's resources are not a part of this great tribulation?

How do you figure the anti-christ would be able to establish unprecedented world peace with the people already chaotically starving, desperate , and dying ?


Dan 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[miamited]

So, you do not think that the chaotic events of the first six trumpets that will destroy much of the earth's resources are not a part of this great tribulation?

Hi for_his_glory

For the record, that's a double negative statement. But no, the destruction arising from the trumpet judgments is not a part of the great tribulation.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory

For the record, that's a double negative statement. But no, the destruction arising from the trumpet judgments is not a part of the great tribulation.

God bless,
Ted

It wasn't a statement, but a question to you to answer.

I would think there will be much tribulation within all seven trumpets sounding. If you go back and read my post #6 then explain why this will not be a part of great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[for_his_glory]

Nobody is forced to do anything until the anti-christ betrays the Jews, cuts off the daily sacrifice , desecrates the Temple. & declares himself to be god .
That's a yes or a no by the way ?
The whole point of receiving the "mark" is not bowing down to a human, but bowing down to one who claims to be god.
Until the anti-christ makes himself god there will be ample time for all Christians who know what is coming to make sure their lamps are full of oil and be on their best behavior .

I never said anyone is forced to do anything before the son of perdition takes his literal seat in Jerusalem.

 

[for_his_glory]

How do you figure the anti-christ would be able to establish unprecedented world peace with the people already chaotically starving, desperate , and dying ?

With lying signs and wonders promising peace and safety after that of the first six trumpets. God will send strong delusion to those who will believe the lies of this final antichrist as they have no truth found in them. My answers are easily found in the below scriptures.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Consecrated Life]

How do you figure the anti-christ would be able to establish unprecedented world peace with the people already chaotically starving, desperate , and dying ?

With lying signs and wonders promising peace and safety...

Signs & wonders don't fill starving bellies , and give peace to those watching loved ones perish.
The signs and wonders are used to fool the Jews and the world into accepting his rule & leadership.
This is the peace he brings. Before he declares himself god and desecrates the Temple, not after .

After he declares himself god is when all hell and forced starvation breaks out.
The anti-christ's purpose in withholding resources and starving people to death is his method to bring them to their knees and accept his mark or die .

 

[miamited]

It wasn't a statement, but a question to you to answer.

I would think there will be much tribulation within all seven trumpets sounding. If you go back and read my post #6 then explain why this will not be a part of great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Well yes, it was a question. My apologies. So let me just be clear on what it is that you're asking.

Ok, I'm not sure what I'm saying here, but I'll give it a go. I do think that the chaotic events of the first six trumpets that will destroy much of the earth's resources are not a part of this great tribulation.

I think that's the same answer I gave you earlier but I have to stop and figure out what the 'double nots' eventually wind up saying is my position.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

Well yes, it was a question. My apologies. So let me just be clear on what it is that you're asking.

Ok, I'm not sure what I'm saying here, but I'll give it a go. I do think that the chaotic events of the first six trumpets that will destroy much of the earth's resources are not a part of this great tribulation.

I think that's the same answer I gave you earlier but I have to stop and figure out what the 'double nots' eventually wind up saying is my position.

God bless,
Ted

OK, fair enough. We just see it differently is all.

I think many put to much emphasis on the word "great" making it sound like a separate tribulation, much like they do saying a seven year tribulation that is not found in scripture. The other six trumpets that will cause great tribulation leading into the seventh trumpet sounding that will force many out of fear and now being destitute to bow down to this beast out of the earth with his lying signs and wonders taking the mark of the beast.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why do so many ignore the first six trumpets that will cause the mark of this beast. When there are no more resources and someone comes along saying peace and safety if you will come to me, what will they do. They will take the mark of this beast as even the very elect of God will be deceived if possible.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

That still didn't explain the first 3.5 years in Rev. 11:2, the two witnesses' ministry.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

OK, fair enough. We just see it differently is all.

I think many put to much emphasis on the word "great" making it sound like a separate tribulation, much like they do saying a seven year tribulation that is not found in scripture. The other six trumpets that will cause great tribulation leading into the seventh trumpet sounding that will force many out of fear and now being destitute to bow down to this beast out of the earth with his lying signs and wonders taking the mark of the beast.

I think there's only one great tribulation which will last three and a half years, we can agree on that; however, I also believe there're parallel accounts in Revelation, the seven trumpets and the seven bowls are the same, and this period will last five months (Rev. 9:5), very similar to the Flood which also lasted exactly five months.

 

[for_his_glory]

Signs & wonders don't fill starving bellies , and give peace to those watching loved ones perish.
The signs and wonders are used to fool the Jews and the world into accepting his rule & leadership.
This is the peace he brings. Before he declares himself god and desecrates the Temple, not after .

After he declares himself god is when all hell and forced starvation breaks out.
The anti-christ's purpose in withholding resources and starving people to death is his method to bring them to their knees and accept his mark or die .

You have to understand that what happens within the seven trumpets will be a world wide event as 1/3 of everything will be destroyed on earth. It's not just local only to Israel, but the whole world. If you read my post #6 you will see by the time the seventh trumpet is sounded that much of the world will be without many resources, especially food and fresh water. As soon as the son of perdition/last antichrist takes his seat in Jerusalem he will be claiming he is God and by the lying signs and wonders will many believe he is, even the very elect of God if possible. He will promise peace, safety and provision so people will be able to buy and sell as many will bow down to this false god accepting the mark of this beast as they will all be damned who take this mark. 2Thessalonians 2:1-12; Rev 13.

 

[for_his_glory]

That still didn't explain the first 3.5 years in Rev. 11:2, the two witnesses' ministry.

There is no seven year tribulation found in scripture that is divided into two 3 1/2 periods.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is no seven year tribulation found in scripture that is divided into two 3 1/2 periods.

And I never suggused there is. I'm simply asking what that three and a half years are about in the sixth trumpet. The only reasonable explanation is that this is the same period of the Beast's reign.

 

[Consecrated Life]

As soon as the son of perdition/last antichrist takes his seat in Jerusalem he will be claiming he is God and by the lying signs and wonders will many believe he is, even the very elect of God if possible. He will promise peace, safety and provision so people will be able to buy and sell as many will bow down to this false god

The anti-christ will be a personality of world leadership long before he proclaims himself to be God .
The Christian would have no trouble recognizing him for who he really is long before he comes out of the closet, based upon his completely resolving without a hitch what no other human being has been able to resolve though many have tried, the ancient violence and hate in the middle east that the Jews are at the center of .
Do you think you would have trouble recognizing the anti-christ prior to his claiming himself god ?

 

[miamited]

OK, fair enough. We just see it differently is all.

I think many put to much emphasis on the word "great" making it sound like a separate tribulation, much like they do saying a seven year tribulation that is not found in scripture. The other six trumpets that will cause great tribulation leading into the seventh trumpet sounding that will force many out of fear and now being destitute to bow down to this beast out of the earth with his lying signs and wonders taking the mark of the beast.

Hi for_his_glory

Personally, I think the difference is in our understanding of 'what' the Scriptures are referring to as the great tribulation and the wrath of God. You see, they are different events authored by different players. The great tribulation is a time of terrible actions that will be happening because a man in power and the people of the earth will be causing life to be torturous, especially for believers. That's a period that Jesus warns us will be more terrible than any other time of tribulation upon the earth. Note that he says that this 'great' tribulation will be worse than other such times that have gone before. All of those tribulations were brought about by the wickedness of man. When the great tribulation comes it will also be the work of wicked mankind.

The wrath of God is not the great tribulation. The wrath of God is a series of events that will proceed from the hand of and the will of God. When the great tribulation comes upon us, believers will still be here. When the wrath of God is released from heaven we won't.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory

Personally, I think the difference is in our understanding of 'what' the Scriptures are referring to as the great tribulation and the wrath of God. You see, they are different events authored by different players. The great tribulation is a time of terrible actions that will be happening because a man in power and the people of the earth will be causing life to be torturous, especially for believers. That's a period that Jesus warns us will be more terrible than any other time of tribulation upon the earth. Note that he says that this 'great' tribulation will be worse than other such times that have gone before. All of those tribulations were brought about by the wickedness of man. When the great tribulation comes it will also be the work of wicked mankind.

The wrath of God is not the great tribulation. The wrath of God is a series of events that will proceed from the hand of and the will of God. When the great tribulation comes upon us, believers will still be here. When the wrath of God is released from heaven we won't.

God bless,
Ted

You might be right about this as when I read Matthew 24:21 after reading verses 15-20 it does seem to mean great tribulation when the son of perdition takes his seat in Jerusalem. I'm going to have to rethink this, thank you.

Not sure what you mean by.......When the wrath of God is released from heaven we won't.

 

[for_his_glory]

The anti-christ will be a personality of world leadership long before he proclaims himself to be God .
The Christian would have no trouble recognizing him for who he really is long before he comes out of the closet, based upon his completely resolving without a hitch what no other human being has been able to resolve though many have tried, the ancient violence and hate in the middle east that the Jews are at the center of .
Do you think you would have trouble recognizing the anti-christ prior to his claiming himself god ?

Scripture say he is already in the world and if you study the history of the four empires in Daniel 7-9 it becomes very clear as who this beast out of the earth will be that received a deadly wound, but that wound has been healed.

 

[for_his_glory]

And I never suggused there is. I'm simply asking what that three and a half years are about in the sixth trumpet. The only reasonable explanation is that this is the same period of the Beast's reign.

There is no mention of a 3 1/2 years during the sixth trumpet.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

[miamited]

You might be right about this as when I read Matthew 24:21 after reading verses 15-20 it does seem to mean great tribulation when the son of perdition takes his seat in Jerusalem. I'm going to have to rethink this, thank you.

Not sure what you mean by.......When the wrath of God is released from heaven we won't.

Hi for_his_glory

We won't be here. The Great Tribulation comes along and the whole world is in some fairly serious turmoil, although not too bad. After all, Jesus said that it would be like in the days of Noe and that in general people would be eating and drinking and giving in marriage. So, I don't expect the Great Tribulation to necessarily be bad for the world at large. I think it will be something concentrated on believers.

But the Great Tribulation starts and then sometime after it begins Jesus returns. Now, whether the Great Tribulation actually runs 3.5 years until the point that Jesus returns is not made clear. Also, I doubt that we'll actually have some date established as the day that the Great Tribulation started. I believe it will just be a growing distrust and disgust of those who follow Jesus. So, I'm just not sure that anyone will ever be able to say, "this is the day that the Great Tribulation started", when looking back at any point when we are in it.

But in the Revelation of Jesus that we now denote as chapter 14 we are told the order in which this will happen. Jesus comes down and calls those who are his. That's what is meant by his swinging his sickle to harvest the earth. Then, after Jesus has taken those who are his out of the way of God's wrath, the second creature takes all those who are left upon the earth and throws them into the winepress of God's wrath. That period of God's wrath is not the same period as the Great Tribulation. They are two different times in the end times discussion found in the Scriptures.

It's been a great problem for the fellowship to understand this. And it's the main reason that people have this idea that believers won't be a part of the Great Tribulation. They liken the Great Tribulation to be speaking of the same time and events of God's wrath. Since God's word clearly tells us that we won't receive God's wrath, then they have to believe that we will be gone before the Great Tribulation starts. But that's not correct, according to the Scriptures. Jesus warned his hearers of the days of Great Tribulation and said that it would be worse than anything has ever been or ever will be. Now, how would we know that 'sign' if we're not here when it comes?

There's actually a pretty good writing on the subject in a book called 'The Sign'.

The Sign book by Robert Van Kampen

Read some of the reviews.

God bless,
Ted