No where in the Renewed Covenant

[Free]

I see what you mean. Those are the "vowel" markings. It's meant for dummies like me who read Hebrew poorly or don't know the language well enough so that I pronounce it better. In Judaism, both new and renew are the same letters Chet-Dalet and shin. All they have in their text is (since Hebrew has no vowels) is חדש and they go by the context I presume.

I suspect those markings change the meaning, which is exactly why every resource I look at gives them different definitions, why different translations consistently translate them differently, and Strong’s has them as different numbers. After all, “new” is in “renew,” but they are different words with different meanings.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Greek doesn't back your claim in verse 5 as being the Shabbat day....its just a day when you eat or don't eat. But you can disagree.

If you are a Christian, why are you concerned with OT Jewish holy days ?
Read Col 2.

 

[Mungo]

As the original post was about, none of you scholars have shown where the Elohyim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob changed His Shabbat or His Set Apart Feast Days in the Renewed Covenant Scriptures.

Untrue. I have debunked your claim with scripture many times but you just ignore the scripture.

 

[tim-from-pa]

If you are a Christian, why are you concerned with OT Jewish holy days ?
Read Col 2.

Don't forget me. LOL While elteqay was the OP, I'm the character who also said he builds sukkahs. Actually, they are not "Jewish holy days". Leviticus 23 calls them the "feasts of the Lord" in which we serve the same Lord. As brother Paul stated in his writings, they were shadows of things to come. In Colossians, that statement of Paul's was not necessarily to do with forgetting about what the feasts were or represented, but rather heretics judging those believers as to how to observe them considering they were telling those Christians all sorts of man-made laws which were not scripturally based. Perhaps I can give a modern example. The Law states that to keep Passover one must have all sorts of rituals involving a lamb and sacrificing it on the altar. So modern Jews, if they sacrifice a lamb would accuse Christians who also keep the Passover of not keeping it correctly because we instead reenact the "Last Supper" foot washing, the wine and bread, etc. So a modern Paul would say let no man judge you regarding Passover, other feasts or Sabbaths (just because they say do it this way while that Law was superseded by a new Covenant in Jesus Christ and Jesus was the Lamb of God). These feasts were shadows of things to come. Thus we respond in worship knowing their meaning and meaning to come. Paul was not saying anything about forgetting them, nor not to worship on them. The NT has all sorts of passages where the apostles went in to teach on Sabbaths and mentioned feasts (e.g. Acts 13, Acts 20:16, 1 Corinthians 16:8).

 

[Elteqay]

But even Vine's doesn't actually support "renew;" that isn't given anywhere.

'"The new things that the Gospel brings for present obedience and realization are: a new covenant, Matthew 26:28 in some texts; a new commandment, John 13:34; a new creative act, Galatians 6:15; a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17; a new man, i.e., a new character of manhood, spiritual and moral, after the pattern of Christ, Ephesians 4:24; a new man, i.e., 'the Church which is His (Christ's) body,' Ephesians 2:15.'

https://studybible.info/vines/New

So, if you took Mr. Vine at his word, you wouldn't translate kainos as "renewed." I cannot find a single source to support that meaning.


Of course I won't. If I had a dollar for every time someone on these forums changed their mind when confronted with facts, I would probably have two dollars, and one would be mine.

The Vines does not say Renew and no where did I say Vines says renew.....now I do stand corrected that the word chadash is chet, dalet, shin from my Hebrew friend.

I am making and educated guess that during Yah's Feast of Passover, when the Promised Seed of the Woman is seating around eating the Prophetic Fulfillment of Passover, the Messiah is speaking Hebrew to 12 Hebrew men and not Greek. There by using chadash and not kainos when speaking in Matthew 26:28.

Now I have heard straight from the mouths of christians Messiah spoke Greek only during His Ministry. In my humble opinion, that is hilarious.

 

[Free]

The Vines does not say Renew and no where did I say Vines says renew.....now I do stand corrected that the word chadash is chet, dalet, shin from my Hebrew friend.

And, yet, you argued that kainos means "renew" and that you'll just stick to what Mr. Vines said. If Mr. Vines doesn't say that kainos means "renew," then sticking to Mr. Vines is pointless.

I am making and educated guess that during Yah's Feast of Passover, when the Promised Seed of the Woman is seating around eating the Prophetic Fulfillment of Passover, the Messiah is speaking Hebrew to 12 Hebrew men and not Greek. There by using chadash and not kainos when speaking in Matthew 26:28.

Now I have heard straight from the mouths of christians Messiah spoke Greek only during His Ministry. In my humble opinion, that is hilarious.

Who said that Jesus "spoke Greek only during his ministry"? I agree that it would be hilarious if someone said that.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Don't forget me. LOL While elteqay was the OP, I'm the character who also said he builds sukkahs.

What is a "sukkah" ?

Actually, they are not "Jewish holy days". Leviticus 23 calls them the "feasts of the Lord" in which we serve the same Lord.

Isn't that a holy day ?

As brother Paul stated in his writings, they were shadows of things to come.

Shadows cast by Christ, and fulfilled.

In Colossians, that statement of Paul's was not necessarily to do with forgetting about what the feasts were or represented

Which statement of Paul ?

, but rather heretics judging those believers as to how to observe them considering they were telling those Christians all sorts of man-made laws which were not scripturally based.

Why would NT Christians celebrate OT Jewish feasts and holy days ?

Perhaps I can give a modern example. The Law states that to keep Passover one must have all sorts of rituals involving a lamb and sacrificing it on the altar. So modern Jews, if they sacrifice a lamb would accuse Christians who also keep the Passover of not keeping it correctly because we instead reenact the "Last Supper" foot washing, the wine and bread, etc.

As salvation will come by faith, and not by Laws or celebrations of past events, it is a moot point.
Essentially a straw man argument.

So a modern Paul would say let no man judge you regarding Passover, other feasts or Sabbaths (just because they say do it this way while that Law was superseded by a new Covenant in Jesus Christ and Jesus was the Lamb of God).

He said don't let any judgement phase you, as the Jewish past is in the Jewish past.

These feasts were shadows of things to come.

Things now fulfilled.

Thus we respond in worship knowing their meaning and meaning to come. Paul was not saying anything about forgetting them, nor not to worship on them. The NT has all sorts of passages where the apostles went in to teach on Sabbaths and mentioned feasts (e.g. Acts 13, Acts 20:16, 1 Corinthians 16:8).

Celebrating Passover is the same as Southerners re-enacting the battle of Gettysburg.
The commemoration of a past event.
Certainly not necessary for salvation.

 

[tim-from-pa]

What is a "sukkah" ?

A temporary dwelling made at the feasts of Tabernacles.

Isn't that a holy day ?

Yes.

Shadows cast by Christ, and fulfilled.

Only the early ones. The later ones are fulfilled at the Second Coming.

Which statement of Paul ?

Why would NT Christians celebrate OT Jewish feasts and holy days ?

Because that's what they foreshadowed - future events are actually prophecy in festivals. Notice everything Jesus did revolved around those feasts.

As salvation will come by faith, and not by Laws or celebrations of past events, it is a moot point.
Essentially a straw man argument.

I wasn't saying anything like that. Not sure what you mean by keeping the Law for salvation. We are under grace.

He said don't let any judgement phase you, as the Jewish past is in the Jewish past.

Things now fulfilled.

Like I said, not completely fulfilled. I think that's your interpretation and assumption. One has to go by the historical and context of the passage.

Celebrating Passover is the same as Southerners re-enacting the battle of Gettysburg.
The commemoration of a past event.
Certainly not necessary for salvation.

Again, I never said it was necessary for salvation. But if one does not know the OT foundation and how the NT built on it, at best they are Christians limited in knowledge in which the Lord expects us to understand and grow. My point is that in "communion" or the eucharist or whatever one calls it, it was Jesus NT representation of Passover. If one celebrates Easter or Pentecost, those are feast days proclaimed back in Leviticus 23 that depicted those events. I am not comfortble using Easter as it really should be called Firstfruits i.e. Jesus is first of the Firstfruits the church when the Spirit was given at Pentecost. What man could not keep in the Law (Torah given on Pentecost) by his flesh power is now enabled by the Spirit, so to be saved for good works. So the Law's standard is very much in effect yet. The question is: whose works? Yours or the Spirit's? So the next feast coming is that of trumpets. It represents Christ's second coming. Should we not take time to worship and acknowledge that wonderful truth and learn- not legalistically by the Law, but in faith rejoicing?

 

[tim-from-pa]

A picture of a sukkuh. Mine is a 2x4 frame bolted together with lattice panels surrounding it. Various branches on the top. I live in it during that week.

 

[Hopeful 2]

A temporary dwelling made at the feasts of Tabernacles.

A tent.

Yes.
Only the early ones. The later ones are fulfilled at the Second Coming.

Describe the fulfillment still awaited .

Because that's what they foreshadowed - future events are actually prophecy in festivals. Notice everything Jesus did revolved around those feasts.

Why celebrate the future when you could be celebrating today ?

I wasn't saying anything like that. Not sure what you mean by keeping the Law for salvation. We are under grace.

Then celebrating another religion's feasts is not necessary for salvation.
It is just another "re-enactment of Gettysburg".

Like I said, not completely fulfilled. I think that's your interpretation and assumption. One has to go by the historical and context of the passage.
Again, I never said it was necessary for salvation. But if one does not know the OT foundation and how the NT built on it, at best they are Christians limited in knowledge in which the Lord expects us to understand and grow. My point is that in "communion" or the eucharist or whatever one calls it, it was Jesus NT representation of Passover. If one celebrates Easter or Pentecost, those are feast days proclaimed back in Leviticus 23 that depicted those events. I am not comfortble using Easter as it really should be called Firstfruits i.e. Jesus is first of the Firstfruits the church when the Spirit was given at Pentecost. What man could not keep in the Law (Torah given on Pentecost) by his flesh power is now enabled by the Spirit, so to be saved for good works. So the Law's standard is very much in effect yet. The question is: whose works? Yours or the Spirit's? So the next feast coming is that of trumpets. It represents Christ's second coming. Should we not take time to worship and acknowledge that wonderful truth and learn- not legalistically by the Law, but in faith rejoicing?

I have no intention of converting to Judaism.
Should converts from Catholicism keep celebrating Catholic feasts ?
How about converts from Hinduism ?
Celebrating past feasts, or holding to any of the Jewish calendar, is, as Paul said, of the flesh.
"Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Col 2:23)

 

[Elteqay]

And, yet, you argued that kainos means "renew" and that you'll just stick to what Mr. Vines said. If Mr. Vines doesn't say that kainos means "renew," then sticking to Mr. Vines is pointless.


Who said that Jesus "spoke Greek only during his ministry"? I agree that it would be hilarious if someone said that.

W.E. Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words....page 109.
NEW
1. KAINOS....denotes New, of that which is unaccustomed or unused, "not new" in TIME, RECENT, but new as to "form" or "quality," of "different nature" from what is contrasted as old.. The NEW tongues, kainos of Mark 16:17 are "other tongues" heteros, of Acts 2:4. These languages, however, were new and different , NOT In The Sense They Had Never Been Heard Before, or They Were new To The Hearers, for it is plan from v.8 that this is Not the case; They were NEW Languages to the Speakers, different from those in which they were accustomed to speak.

As we can see by W.E. Vines definition, kainos does not mean brand new......so if my argument is pointless, from reading this definition of new, your argument is just as pointless. We will just agree to disagree.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Describe the fulfillment still awaited .

The Second Coming of Christ, Binding of Satan as the Kingdom is ready to commence, The millennial reign of Christ and the Church here on Earth for 1000 years, and lastly the Great White Throne Judgment. Each one of these feasts (as with the ones fulfilled) have a part in the redemptive plan of mankind. So that's shown by Trumpets, Day of Atonement, The feast of Tabernacle and the (separate) Last Great Day.

Why celebrate the future when you could be celebrating today ?

Yes, you did miss the point. We are and will be doing both. I'm the one celebrating. You apparently are not. But I am open-minded enough with Paul that one does not need to celebrate anything. At least you do not think Sunday, or Christmas or Easter, etc is special and don't do anything then on those days other than do the same things i.e. you think every day is alike. But some do regard the day for worship. And that's OK, too.

Then celebrating another religion's feasts is not necessary for salvation.
It is just another "re-enactment of Gettysburg".

Oy Vey! LOL So you are of a different religion (faith)? Yes, I'm starting to believe that now.

I have no intention of converting to Judaism.

Neither am I.

 

[Free]

W.E. Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words....page 109.
NEW
1. KAINOS....denotes New, of that which is unaccustomed or unused, "not new" in TIME, RECENT, but new as to "form" or "quality," of "different nature" from what is contrasted as old.. The NEW tongues, kainos of Mark 16:17 are "other tongues" heteros, of Acts 2:4. These languages, however, were new and different , NOT In The Sense They Had Never Been Heard Before, or They Were new To The Hearers, for it is plan from v.8 that this is Not the case; They were NEW Languages to the Speakers, different from those in which they were accustomed to speak.

As we can see by W.E. Vines definition, kainos does not mean brand new......so if my argument is pointless, from reading this definition of new, your argument is just as pointless. We will just agree to disagree.

This is misleading, since you are not quoting the full text of Vines:

'[ 1,,G2537, kainos ]
denotes new," of that which is unaccustomed or unused, not "new" in time, recent, but "new" as to form or quality, of different nature from what is contrasted as old. "'The new tongues,' kainos, of Mark 16:17 are the 'other tongues,' heteros, of Acts 2:4. These languages, however, were 'new' and 'different,' not in the sense that they had never been heard before, or that they were new to the hearers, for it is plain from Acts 2:8 that this is not the case; they were new languages to the speakers, different from those in which they were accustomed to speak.

"The new things that the Gospel brings for present obedience and realization are: a new covenant, Matthew 26:28 in some texts; a new commandment, John 13:34; a new creative act, Galatians 6:15; a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17; a new man, i.e., a new character of manhood, spiritual and moral, after the pattern of Christ, Ephesians 4:24; a new man, i.e., 'the Church which is His (Christ's) body,' Ephesians 2:15.

"The new things that are to be received and enjoyed hereafter are: a new name, the believer's, Revelation 2:17; a new name, the Lord's, Revelation 3:12; a new song, Revelation 5:9; a new Heaven and a new Earth, Revelation 21:1; the new Jerusalem, Revelation 3:12; Revelation 21:2; 'And He that sitteth on the Throne said, Behold, I make all things new,' Revelation 21:5" * [* From Notes on Galations, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 337,338.]

Kainos is translated "fresh" in the RV of Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22 (in the best texts) and Luke 5:38, of wineskins. Cp. kainotes, "newness" (below)'

Clearly, some of those things are "new" in time and recent, which is also what "fresh" means. This is supported by Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible (in addition to the sources I already gave):

NEW
6. New, fresh, recent, newly made, καινός kainos

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Second Coming of Christ, Binding of Satan as the Kingdom is ready to commence, The millennial reign of Christ and the Church here on Earth for 1000 years, and lastly the Great White Throne Judgment. Each one of these feasts (as with the ones fulfilled) have a part in the redemptive plan of mankind. So that's shown by Trumpets, Day of Atonement, The feast of Tabernacle and the (separate) Last Great Day.

Yes, you did miss the point. We are and will be doing both. I'm the one celebrating. You apparently are not. But I am open-minded enough with Paul that one does not need to celebrate anything. At least you do not think Sunday, or Christmas or Easter, etc is special and don't do anything then on those days other than do the same things i.e. you think every day is alike. But some do regard the day for worship. And that's OK, too.

Oy Vey! LOL So you are of a different religion (faith)? Yes, I'm starting to believe that now.

Neither am I.

Then why adopt their feasts, celebrations, and holydays ?
Did you also adopt circumcision and dietary rules ?
How about travel limitations on your sabbath days ?
Stoning witches and adulterers ?
Just how much of the Law still applies to your life ?

 

[donadams]

The new covenant is the kingdom, the apostolic church the body of Christ having all authority from Christ to do so Matt 28:19

 

[tim-from-pa]

Then why adopt their feasts, celebrations, and holydays ?
Did you also adopt circumcision and dietary rules ?
How about travel limitations on your sabbath days ?
Stoning witches and adulterers ?
Just how much of the Law still applies to your life ?

Not sure what you are driving at. I said numerous times that the Law does not save, we are under grace. However, in the case of the feast days and Sabbaths they are decreed by the Lord for certain prophetic events and for man to rest and I am amazed that some apparently find this threatening. I'm sorry. Tell, me, do you go to church on Sundays? (As a bonus, I do have dietary rules but not according to the tradition of men)

As for the Law, I do only that which is moral as the Spirit helps me to be saved onto good works. We are not under the ceremonial law i.e. the Levitical. But moral laws such as the 10 commandments should be followed by the Christian because those are outward standards of righteousness. In other words, what was once on stone is now in the heart as guided by the Spirit where the Law is in one's heart, and that's based on love. I said that yet again because after saying that a thousand times over, some will still accuse me of "salvation by works".

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not sure what you are driving at. I said numerous times that the Law does not save, we are under grace. However, in the case of the feast days and Sabbaths they are decreed by the Lord for certain prophetic events and for man to rest and I am amazed that some apparently find this threatening. I'm sorry. Tell, me, do you go to church on Sundays? (As a bonus, I do have dietary rules but not according to the tradition of men)

Unless you are on OT Jew, the "decrees" don't apply to you.

As for the Law, I do only that which is moral as the Spirit helps me to be saved onto good works.

Good, and glory to God.

We are not under the ceremonial law i.e. the Levitical. But moral laws such as the 10 commandments should be followed by the Christian because those are outward standards of righteousness. In other words, what was once on stone is now in the heart as guided by the Spirit where the Law is in one's heart, and that's based on love. I said that yet again because after saying that a thousand times over, some will still accuse me of "salvation by works".

Play acting feast-keeping adds to their arsenal against you.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Unless you are on OT Jew, the "decrees" don't apply to you.

Maybe I'm not a Jew, but an Israelite. LOL OK I had enough back and forth. I'm going to do something more fruitful today. I'll try to teach my cats calculus.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Maybe I'm not a Jew, but an Israelite. LOL OK I had enough back and forth. I'm going to do something more fruitful today. I'll try to teach my cats calculus.

Perhaps you could tell us what the goal of your posts was ?
Were you trying to convert people to the observance of OT rites ?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Perhaps you could tell us what the goal of your posts was ?
Were you trying to convert people to the observance of OT rites ?

Trying to show people that all that in the OT was the foundation of all the NT instead of truncating it off. And the NT is by extension what the OT was about. If one does not understand OT, then they worship Jesus in a vacuum. I would not be so quick either to judge those who want to worship on Sabbath or Feast days of the Lord as if they are doing it for salvation (they are not). They mean something for the future and are biblically based. And yet the same would change the Sabbath to Sunday (don't know where that came from) and keep Christmas and Easter and Lents (they have no biblical basis or story behind them) and the like not realizing they are doing the very same thing they are accusing the Sabbath folks of doing. So for those who are quick to quote Colossians, I'll quote one, too:

But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.
I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. (Galatians 4)

So if that's for sacrifice by the Levitical system, which is no longer necessary, it applies all the more so to newly invented or continuing old holidays with basis in paganism. That's all the more so because Paul calls them beggarly elements (i.e. detestable fundamentals like in old times before Christ). So they were using these beggarly elements to celebrate, worship or whatever - not reference to the times themselves.

It boils down to this: can you tell the difference between someone who observes Sabbaths, feasts and festivals the OT way, sacrifices and all, rather than worships on those days New Testament style? Clue: Nobody brings a lamb to sacrifice on the altar for sins etc etc. Instead we celebrate the Lord's Supper - the NT way for that feast. I have not seen a demonstration that you do know the difference.