[__ Science __ ] Noah’s Ark: The Problem of Violent Waves

[Barbarian]

Bonus Fun fact: Neanderthals were also men, not "evolutionary ancestors that came from the monkey's ancestors".

Bonus fun fact: That story is just a Creationist invention. Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans are descended from earlier humans. They just evolved into different biological races. No one with any knowledge of humans at all would buy that "evolved from the monkey's ancestors" story.

 

[Who Me]

The polar ice has been there for hundreds of
thousands of years.

Ice floats.

But the ice is still there.

Is that not impossible?

Yes ice floats and is driven by wind and currents.

What might surprise you is that the Ark floated and was driven by winds and currents.
How does a floating object threaten another floating object.

thr flood was very deep, its estimated that if the earth surface was roughly smoothed out the ocean would have an average depth of a quarter of a mile.
There would not have been stationary grounded ice floes.

 

[Who Me]

No, this is false. The stress comes from wave action on the hull.

Hogging is the stress a ship's hull or keel experiences that causes the center or the keel to bend upward. Sagging is the stress a ship's hull or keel is placed under when a wave is the same length as the ship and the ship is in the trough of two waves. This causes the middle of the ship to bend down slightly, and depending on the level of bend, may cause the hull to snap or crack.

Hogging and sagging - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Very large wooden vessels have flexed so much that massive leaking resulted.

You have only a partial answer.
The major stress on any wooden sailing vessels is from the forces acting through the masts and yes the actions of the waves on the Hull.
A well built wooden vessel is more than capable of surviving g for a year or two drifting with the waves.
Yes there would be leakage, enough to sink it? Who knows, it is unlikely, and Noah would have had to pump water around for the animals, why couldn't he have a bilge pump powered by animals.
l

 

[Barbarian]

The major stress on any wooden sailing vessels is from the forces acting through the masts

No.

The stress on the hull is almost entirely from hogging and sagging. The reason wooden vessels the size of the Ark will quickly leak and sink if not pumped out continuously is that flewing of the hull due to wave action.

A well built wooden vessel is more than capable of surviving g for a year or two drifting with the waves.

That's been tested. The Wyoming was a wooden ship the length of the Ark. It had to be continuously pumped out by steam bilge pumps so that it would not sink.

With a length of 450 ft (140 m) from jib-boom tip to spanker boom tip, Wyoming was the largest known wooden ship ever built.
...
Because of her extreme length and wood construction, Wyoming tended to flex in heavy seas, which would cause the long planks to twist and buckle, thereby allowing sea water to intrude into the hold (see hogging and sagging). Wyoming had to use pumps to keep her hold relatively free of water. In March 1924, she foundered in heavy seas and sank with the loss of all hands.”

Wyoming: Largest Wooden Ship Ever Built (in Bath, ME)

Today, visitors can appreciate a full-size sculpture of the schooner Wyoming on the grounds of the Maine Maritime Museum in Bath, Maine.

www.experiencemaritimemaine.org

Yes there would be leakage, enough to sink it? Who knows, it is unlikely

Nope. That has actually been tested on a real ship about as long as the Ark was said to be. This is why no creationist group will every build and Ark and test it in the ocean. They already know what would happen.

and Noah would have had to pump water around for the animals, why couldn't he have a bilge pump powered by animals.

Salt or brackish water wouldn't work for the animals. And of course, the pumps would require more energy than the animals would be able to provide on a 24-hour a day basis. I'd be open to your numbers showing otherwise. Two large steam engines were required to run the pumps on the Wyoming, which proved to be not enough in heavy seas.

 

[Who Me]

No.

The stress on the hull is almost entirely from hogging and sagging. The reason wooden vessels the size of the Ark will quickly leak and sink if not pumped out continuously is that flewing of the hull due to wave action.


That's been tested. The Wyoming was a wooden ship the length of the Ark. It had to be continuously pumped out by steam bilge pumps so that it would not sink.

With a length of 450 ft (140 m) from jib-boom tip to spanker boom tip, Wyoming was the largest known wooden ship ever built.
...
Because of her extreme length and wood construction, Wyoming tended to flex in heavy seas, which would cause the long planks to twist and buckle, thereby allowing sea water to intrude into the hold (see hogging and sagging). Wyoming had to use pumps to keep her hold relatively free of water. In March 1924, she foundered in heavy seas and sank with the loss of all hands.”

Wyoming: Largest Wooden Ship Ever Built (in Bath, ME)

Today, visitors can appreciate a full-size sculpture of the schooner Wyoming on the grounds of the Maine Maritime Museum in Bath, Maine.

www.experiencemaritimemaine.org

Nope. That has actually been tested on a real ship about as long as the Ark was said to be. This is why no creationist group will every build and Ark and test it in the ocean. They already know what would happen.


Salt or brackish water wouldn't work for the animals. And of course, the pumps would require more energy than the animals would be able to provide on a 24-hour a day basis. I'd be open to your numbers showing otherwise. Two large steam engines were required to run the pumps on the Wyoming, which proved to be not enough in heavy seas.

It was a sailing ship that lasted for 15 years. There is a big difference between a new built vessel that is drifting and a vessel built with a limited life span and that is driven by wind with, across or against the waves.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Is There Truth in the “Myth” of Genesis?

August 29, 2024

Why Creation (Really) Matters for Thinking About Ethics

What if in Scripture, the answers we need for ethically navigating the biotechnological revolution have been available all along?

answersingenesis.org

Have Astronomers Found Water on Mars?

The evolutionary agenda behind looking for water on other planets.

answersingenesis.org

https://twitter.com/x/status/1828797076844498995

Old or New Testament? 11% of Protestants Don’t Know

It’s hard to believe, but according to a new study, 1 in 10 “American Protestant Churchgoers” (11%) can’t answer what Bible accounts occurred in which Testament.

answersingenesis.org

Seems like the ATHIEST agenda to push K2K evo is working to dumb down the new gen of believers!

All Children Are of One Race—the Human Race

All descendants of Adam are equally valuable.

answersingenesis.org

How Long Have Arches Been Around?

The recent collapse of many arches is a problem for evolution.

answersingenesis.org

T-Minus 9—A Biblical Creationist in a Rocket Science World

How a rocket scientist went from NASA to Answers in Genesis.

answersingenesis.org

Oceans of Liquid Water On . . . Mars?

The word Mars conjures up an image of a red, dusty planet surrounded by the blackness of space. But many researchers believe Mars was once a watery world.

answersingenesis.org

.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Weird Evolution Stories – CEH

crev.info

OOL Research ‘May Have’ Fooled Some People – CEH

crev.info

Genesis Ideology Immunizes Against Evil – CEH

crev.info

Archive: Rafting, Oxygen, Indoctrination, Mars Flood, More – CEH

crev.info

Motley Origins News – CEH

crev.info

How SETI Believers Avoid Depression – CEH

crev.info

.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Creation Scientist​

Robert Grosseteste
Robert Grosseteste was extremely important to the early development of modern science, yet he is sure to be almost unknown to most readers. This medieval pastor, however, exemplifies the theme of our series, that it was Christian beliefs that motivated science, and it was great Christians who ignited the scientific revolution.
Click “See All” below for a complete list of our scientist biographies.
Read More
crev.info/scientists/robert-grosseteste/

Robert Grosseteste – CEH

crev.info

 

[KV-44-v1]

That story is just a Creationist invention.

Lol! Who 'invented' it? Bob? Larry? Frank?

Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans are descended from earlier humans.

So you say that 'neanderthals were also men' was invented by YECs but then you state it as fact????

They just evolved into different biological races.

I thought you said the concept of "human raceS" was debunked/moot.

No one with any knowledge of humans at all would

Someone hasn't been up to date on K2KE news & agenda. Or mabye just using "monke vs ape" to dodge again!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee–human_last_common_ancestor

amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent/human-origins/understanding-our-past/living-primates#:~:text=Humans%20are%20primates–a%20diverse%20group%20that%20includes%20some%20200%20species.&text=Monkeys%2C%20lemurs%20and%20apes%20are,related%2C%20they%20are%20genetically%20similar.

buy that "evolved from the monkey's ancestors" story.

Plenty of athiests, compromisers, and these guys in these 2 links sure did!

 

[Barbarian]

It was a sailing ship that lasted for 15 years. There is a big difference between a new built vessel that is drifting and a vessel built with a limited life span and that is driven by wind with, across or against the waves.

That excuse won't work, either. The Wyoming immediately leaked because of wave action and required two steam engines to continuously pump out water.

This is why you will never see creationists build and ark and test it on the seas. It would fill and sink very quickly.

 

[Barbarian]

KV-44-v1 said:
Bonus Fun fact: Neanderthals were also men, not "evolutionary ancestors that came from the monkey's ancestors".

That story is just a Creationist invention.

Lol! Who 'invented' it? Bob? Larry? Frank?

First time I encountered it, Duane Gish of the Institute for Creation Research. Just made it up. Debunked almost immediately, but some creationists still trot it out from time to time.

So you say that 'neanderthals were also men' was invented by YECs

No. They learned that from real scientists. What they made up was the "ancestors that came from the monkey's ancestors." Complete fabrication. But Gish knew almost nothing of biology, so he never realized how foolish it was for him to claim that's what evolutionary theory says. Ignorant creationists have continued to use if from time time. I'm surprised anyone still would do that. A few dodge the issue by saying "well apes are just like monkeys" which is an incredibly ignorant statement.

I thought you said the concept of "human raceS" was debunked/moot.

There are no biological races today, contrary to creationist teaching. But there were at one time. A few scientists think Neandertals were different enough to be considered separate species, but the genetic data indicates they were a race of H. sapiens, as we are.

As you might know, YE leader Henry Morris considered blacks to be a different genetic race who he considered to be inferior in intellect and spirituality.

No one with any sense thinks monkeys evolved into humans.

Plenty of athiests, compromisers, and these guys in these 2 links sure did!

But not any biologists? Guess why. If you learn nothing else from this discussion, learn that monkeys are far too evolved in their own ways to be ancestors of hominids.

 

[KV-44-v1]

: to create,

He's the unique Creator.

So now you know that when YECs say "God Designing", they just mean this.

 

[Barbarian]

Robert Grosseteste was extremely important to the early development of modern science, yet he is sure to be almost unknown to most readers. This medieval pastor, however, exemplifies the theme of our series, that it was Christian beliefs that motivated science, and it was great Christians who ignited the scientific revolution.

Grosseteste had read several important works translated from Greek via Arabic, including De Speculis by Euclid (and likely also De Visu), Meteorologica and De Generatione Animalium by Aristotle, and directly from Arabic, such as Liber Canonis by Avicenna. He likely also read al-Kindi's De Aspectibus.[29] Drawing on these sources, Grosseteste produced important work in optics, which would be continued by Roger Bacon, who often mentioned his indebtedness to him although there is no proof that the two ever met. In De Iride Grosseteste writes:

This part of optics, when well understood, shows us how we may make things a very long distance off appear as if placed very close, and large near things appear very small, and how we may make small things placed at a distance appear any size we want, so that it may be possible for us to read the smallest letters at incredible distances, or to count sand, or seed, or any sort of minute objects.

Editions of the original Latin text may be found in: Die Philosophischen Werke des Robert Grosseteste, Bischofs von Lincoln (Münster i. W., Aschendorff, 1912.), p. 75.[30]

Grosseteste was one of the first medieval Europeans to receive classical and Arabic science. The idea of experiment and testing hypotheses is far old than Grosseteste or even Avicenna; perhaps the first formal description of the method was by the Ionian Greek philosopher Democritus.

Under men like Bacon and Grosseteste, European scholars took the ancient learning and produced the greatest expansion of scientific knowledge in history.

History of Europe - Renaissance Science, Technology & Exploration

History of Europe - Renaissance Science, Technology & Exploration: According to medieval scientists, matter was composed of four elements—earth, air, fire, and water—whose combinations and permutations made up the world of visible objects. The cosmos was a series of concentric spheres in motion...

www.britannica.com

 

[KV-44-v1]

learn that monkeys are far too evolved in their own ways to be ancestors of hominids.

The fact that kinds cannot evolve into other kinds already makes this fact clear to me.

CAFPT true.
Speciation true.
K2K Evo.... False.

I don't believe in K2KE, so the common ancestor myth doesn't have a foothold in me.

 

[Barbarian]

So now you know that when YECs say "God Designing", they just mean this.

It's an implicit insult to God. He is the Creator not a mere "designer." He has no need to figure anything out. Humans design. God creates.

BTW, engineers have learned from God's creation to solve extremely difficult problems that are impossible to solve by design. Genetic Algorithms copy evolutionary processes. They are extremely efficient at solving very difficult engineering processes, many of which can't be solved by design.

In a genetic algorithm, a population of candidate solutions (called individuals, creatures, organisms, or phenotypes) to an optimization problem is evolved toward better solutions. Each candidate solution has a set of properties (its chromosomes or genotype) which can be mutated and altered; traditionally, solutions are represented in binary as strings of 0s and 1s, but other encodings are also possible.

The evolution usually starts from a population of randomly generated individuals, and is an iterative process, with the population in each iteration called a generation. In each generation, the fitness of every individual in the population is evaluated; the fitness is usually the value of the objective function in the optimization problem being solved. The more fit individuals are stochastically selected from the current population, and each individual's genome is modified (recombined and possibly randomly mutated) to form a new generation. The new generation of candidate solutions is then used in the next iteration of the algorithm. Commonly, the algorithm terminates when either a maximum number of generations has been produced, or a satisfactory fitness level has been reached for the population.

Genetic algorithm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Diesel Engine Combustion Chamber Geometry Optimization Using Genetic Algorithms and Multi-Dimensional Spray and Combustion Modeling

The recently developed KIVA-GA computer code was used in the current study to optimize the combustion chamber geometry of a heavy -duty diesel truck engine and a high-speed direct-injection (HSDI) small-bore diesel engine. KIVA-GA performs engine simulations within the framework of a genetic al

www.sae.org

Turns out, God knows best, after all. Evolutionary processes work better than design for complex problems.

 

[Barbarian]

I don't believe in K2KE, so the common ancestor myth doesn't have a foothold in me.

Doesn't matter. Genetics shows that it's a fact. And we know the method works, because we can test it on organisms of known descent.

The fact that kinds cannot evolve into other kinds already makes this fact clear to me.

Well, let's ask a knowledgeable YE creationist, working from a different set of data....

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediatespecies —include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates),and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and theirpresumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

Wise prefers his understanding of scripture to the evidence. But he's too honest to deny the facts.

 

[Who Me]

That excuse won't work, either. The Wyoming immediately leaked because of wave action and required two steam engines to continuously pump out water.

This is why you will never see creationists build and ark and test it on the seas. It would fill and sink very quickly.

your source for this please.
You also do not account for the difference between drifting and sailing in movement in the vessels structure.

 

[Barbarian]

your source for this please.

Because of her extreme length and wood construction, Wyoming tended to flex in heavy seas, which would cause the long planks to twist and buckle, thereby allowing sea water to intrude into the hold (see hogging and sagging). Wyoming had to use pumps to keep her hold relatively free of water.

Wyoming: Largest Wooden Ship Ever Built (in Bath, ME)

Today, visitors can appreciate a full-size sculpture of the schooner Wyoming on the grounds of the Maine Maritime Museum in Bath, Maine.

www.experiencemaritimemaine.org

You also do not account for the difference between drifting and sailing in movement in the vessels structure.

So far, you haven't shown us anything to believe that it affects hull leakage at all. The force on the mast is at right angles to the forces that cause hogging and sagging.

Sagging And Hogging Bending Moments: Complete Guide​

Sagging and hogging bending moments are 2 types of moments a structure can experience. A structure can bend upward or downward.

Sagging And Hogging Bending Moments: Complete Guide

Sagging and hogging bending moments are 2 types of moments a structure can experience. A structure can bend upward or downward.

civilmint.com

It's worth noting that wooden ships, over time develop a measurable permanent hogging because the center of the ship is more buoyant than the bow and stern.

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/HistUSSCRestorations-Expanded-Version.pdf

If the force on the mast was a significant factor, the opposite would be true. What evidence do you have for masts affecting leakage? Show us some numbers.

 

[Who Me]

Because of her extreme length and wood construction, Wyoming tended to flex in heavy seas, which would cause the long planks to twist and buckle, thereby allowing sea water to intrude into the hold (see hogging and sagging). Wyoming had to use pumps to keep her hold relatively free of water.

Wyoming: Largest Wooden Ship Ever Built (in Bath, ME)

Today, visitors can appreciate a full-size sculpture of the schooner Wyoming on the grounds of the Maine Maritime Museum in Bath, Maine.

www.experiencemaritimemaine.org

So far, you haven't shown us anything to believe that it affects hull leakage at all. The force on the mast is at right angles to the forces that cause hogging and sagging.

Sagging And Hogging Bending Moments: Complete Guide​

Sagging and hogging bending moments are 2 types of moments a structure can experience. A structure can bend upward or downward.

Sagging And Hogging Bending Moments: Complete Guide

Sagging and hogging bending moments are 2 types of moments a structure can experience. A structure can bend upward or downward.

civilmint.com

It's worth noting that wooden ships, over time develop a measurable permanent hogging because the center of the ship is more buoyant than the bow and stern.

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/HistUSSCRestorations-Expanded-Version.pdf

If the force on the mast was a significant factor, the opposite would be true. What evidence do you have for masts affecting leakage? Show us some numbers.

LibGuides: SS Wyoming: History of the Schooner Wyoming

LibGuides: SS Wyoming: History of the Schooner Wyoming

uwyo.libguides.com

Despite Wyoming’s cutting-edge features and speed on the open water, it was not without challenges. The ship could be difficult to maneuver in confined spaces, and the engine fire generally needed to be extinguished during storms for safety.

This vessel which leaked so badly that it was kept afloat by steam powered pumps, also put the fire out durring storms, when the need for pumping was greatest.

I suspect that when new the leakage was within acceptable limits and when old and after its expected life the leakage was approaching dangerous limits.

 

[Barbarian]

I suspect that when new the leakage was within acceptable limits

No, it leaked from the start, and had to be continuously pumped out. It's the nature of wooden vessels that large.