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Noah - Unsure

Thank you Kevin, sorry for my tone, no harm was meant by it.
Hebrews 11:7;
"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an Ark to save his family".
Chapter 11 of Hebrews talks about Abraham, Moses, and many more who believed by faith.
1 Peter 3:20 and 2 Peter 2:5;
Peter refers to Noah in both places.
To think that they are not literal verses puts a big damper on the whole chapters.
If you think it is not literal, then you have to rethink the meanings in the entire chapters.
 
God has always had conversations with folks. Talking is talking. When God says he does something, he does something.

Did Jesus allegorically cast out any demons? Did Jesus metaphorically heal anyone? When he did things they were done instantly and miraculously. Was there any occasion where he said be healed and then let the natural science of things do what they do and take time? Wether its noah or jonah or the feeding of five thousand, God said he did it and is not bound by natural physics/erosion/plate shifting or whatever other earthly physical rule to make it happen.

The "danger will robinson" alarm raised was for the teaching of such ideas. The bible says one thing - doesnt say how and only gives a time. Going beyond that simplicity and inducting other folks into a set of ideas that isnt even there is where worlds of faith can come crashing down before they are even born. Binding our lord to something he isnt bound to. Im not talking about possibility here or something that pops into ones head, im talking about fervently clinging to and spreading a "truth" that was never ever told.

The type of faith, and thats exactly what it is, that allen is displaying here is the kind faith that is to be admired and hoped for. Too often it gets labeled as ignorant and uneducated, but its exactly the opposite. Look at it as a gift, one we all should want.

Remember though please, those that say it makes no difference for you wether its story or not, it is not so for many others. I for one, even at risk of putting my soul in jeapordy, would be standing near the front of the line somewhere telling God he is a liar if he said he did something but didnt actually do it. Who wants to serve something like that? Providence smiles though, wont have to deal with that sort of thing.
 
God has always had conversations with folks. Talking is talking. When God says he does something, he does something.

Did Jesus allegorically cast out any demons? Did Jesus metaphorically heal anyone? When he did things they were done instantly and miraculously. Was there any occasion where he said be healed and then let the natural science of things do what they do and take time? Wether its noah or jonah or the feeding of five thousand, God said he did it and is not bound by natural physics/erosion/plate shifting or whatever other earthly physical rule to make it happen.

The "danger will robinson" alarm raised was for the teaching of such ideas. The bible says one thing - doesnt say how and only gives a time. Going beyond that simplicity and inducting other folks into a set of ideas that isnt even there is where worlds of faith can come crashing down before they are even born. Binding our lord to something he isnt bound to. Im not talking about possibility here or something that pops into ones head, im talking about fervently clinging to and spreading a "truth" that was never ever told.

The type of faith, and thats exactly what it is, that allen is displaying here is the kind faith that is to be admired and hoped for. Too often it gets labeled as ignorant and uneducated, but its exactly the opposite. Look at it as a gift, one we all should want.

Remember though please, those that say it makes no difference for you wether its story or not, it is not so for many others. I for one, even at risk of putting my soul in jeapordy, would be standing near the front of the line somewhere telling God he is a liar if he said he did something but didnt actually do it. Who wants to serve something like that? Providence smiles though, wont have to deal with that sort of thing.

"And I, behold, I make you this day a fortified city, an iron pillar, and bronze walls, against the whole land, against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests, and the people of the land. They will fight against you, but they shall not prevail against you, for I am with you, declares the Lord, to deliver you.” -Jeremiah 1:18-19

"The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled. Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem." -Ezekiel 23:1-4

Is there a bronze wall called Jeremiah? God said he would make Jeremiah into a bronze wall that won't be prevailed against. Where is this elusive bronze wall? Forgive me if I come across negatively, but I think it borders on silly to say that everything has to be literal. What about my favourite passage in scripture for making Christians uncomfortable? (Ezekiel 23 is about as lewd as it gets...and the ESV uses nice words) Are those literal women? No. They are symbolic. God is telling a story where those two women represent groups of people.

Why does God make laws in this universe and then not follow them? He has a perfect understanding of them, so perhaps he can manipulate them. He's God after all. He has the ability to manipulate matter in ways that I don't. He doesn't have any reason to be contradictory to his own laws in order to display his power...because he's the only one capable of such miracles anyway.

I still have faith that God is all powerful. I don't think he "metaphorically" healed people. That's not telling a story, that's the life of Jesus. I'm not calling God a liar. I'm saying that God uses symoblism and metaphor to communicate with us, and sometimes he tells stories that are fictional in order to make a point. Am I lying when I use an illustration?
 
Well, do you believe Jesus is real?
If you do, why?
Why not believe he is just symbolism or something.
Always believe the Bible to be literal unless it doesn't make sense.
Only then look for a figurative or symbolic meaning.
 
Why do I believe Jesus is real? I believe the testimony of the writers of scripture concerning the events of his life, and we in fact have empirical evidence that there was a man called Jesus who walked the Earth and died on the cross. There are even non-Christian authors that have written about that much.

Okay, well I don't believe that Noah's Ark literally makes sense. There are so many problems with it being literal.

1) Where did all the water come from?
2) Where did all the water go?
3) How did Noah and his family breathe way up in the thin air?
4) How did animals cross the ocean to get to his ark?
5) How did all the animals spread back across the Earth after it was done?
6) Where IS Noah's ark now?

The list can go on. I use the mind the Lord God gave me and the world he created to verify whether or not something should be literal, along with internal consistency of the scriptures.
 
Okay, mankind has proven to you that Jesus was a real person.
What else do you believe about him?
 
I believe in his death and resurrection...because of the testimony of those in scripture. Testimony is a big deal, especially the testimony of those who went to agonizing deaths without recanting (ALL of them did).

I'm not going to have faith in something blind though. I'm not going to assume that because Jesus is God that he had to be committing miracles that break our laws of nature (the same ones he created). I think his miracles are a display of his power and complete knowledge of the universe.

See, I don't look at the Bible as anything but the inspired, written testimony of its authors...a testimony that still has to be tested for consistency and logical sense. God didn't give us all of these tools to have us ignore them.
 
Tristan, why don't you cut out of your Bible what you don't believe to be true and see what you've got left.
And then we'll talk about that.
 
I'm not cutting anything out. I'm reading it in context. Everything it says is true, but perhaps not LITERALLY true. :)
 
Why do I believe Jesus is real? I believe the testimony of the writers of scripture concerning the events of his life, and we in fact have empirical evidence that there was a man called Jesus who walked the Earth and died on the cross. There are even non-Christian authors that have written about that much.

Okay, well I don't believe that Noah's Ark literally makes sense. There are so many problems with it being literal.

1) Where did all the water come from?
2) Where did all the water go?
3) How did Noah and his family breathe way up in the thin air?
4) How did animals cross the ocean to get to his ark?
5) How did all the animals spread back across the Earth after it was done?
6) Where IS Noah's ark now?

The list can go on. I use the mind the Lord God gave me and the world he created to verify whether or not something should be literal, along with internal consistency of the scriptures.
I'm not sure these questions can't be taken literally. After all, we are talking about God here, aren't we? The same God that willed all matter into existence? The same God that breathed life into mankind? I think this same God could will the water into existence and then dissipate it as easily. He could make the air breathable for Noah and his family or even make Noah and his family not require air at all if he so chose.
 
But why did he have to do that? Why does it have to be taken literally? I don't see it as a threat to God's power or sovereignty. Sure, could technically "could" do that, but that doesn't mean he did.
 
Thank you Kevin, sorry for my tone, no harm was meant by it.
Hebrews 11:7;
"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an Ark to save his family".
Chapter 11 of Hebrews talks about Abraham, Moses, and many more who believed by faith.
1 Peter 3:20 and 2 Peter 2:5;
Peter refers to Noah in both places.
To think that they are not literal verses puts a big damper on the whole chapters.
If you think it is not literal, then you have to rethink the meanings in the entire chapters.

Apology accepted, and no harm done.

I don't think faith is harmed even a tiny bit by not taking Genesis as a literal historical account. I think quite the opposite. One can understand that it is a book about humanities relationship with God. How to behave. Our place and responsibilities on earth. When taken as a historical or science book it fails in those aspects, and causes many to not bother learning more.

Faith is acknowledging the truth of how the world works and believing anyway. Not simply saying I know the sky looks blue, but it is really green, and I will attack all who don't agree, and stick my fingers in me ears. Not accusing you of attacking, but it is a tactic of many who take genesis as a literal book. The conversation tactics are quite non Christian at times I have found. The concept of Lying for Jesus is particularly odd.
 
Lets go back in time oh about 4800 years ago should do it. Noah and the family are going to build an Ark, today something that size would be called a ship. Your jobs.. getting all those critters to fit on that ship, a pretty big task no doubt lots of time to put it together about 120 years wasn't it, so then where do you start, I'd start by giving each family member a specific job so there's no confusion, lets begin with the animal/zoo tender/keeper his/her job to measure the animals height width weight etc, next the room builder, how small/large each container will be, lets see if i wanted to fit that St. Barnard into a phone booth how would i go about it, how long will it be staying in its new quarters etc. Wouldn't it be better to get it as a puppy, that way I'd have extra room for those elk, is this making sense? Did you know you can fit the entire population of the earth in the state of Texas that would give each resident 1000 sq. ft to play with? Fit all those animals on the Ark/Ship, no problem.. :thumbsup

tob
 
Lets go back in time oh about 4800 years ago should do it. Noah and the family are going to build an Ark, today something that size would be called a ship. Your jobs.. getting all those critters to fit on that ship, a pretty big task no doubt lots of time to put it together about 120 years wasn't it, so then where do you start, I'd start by giving each family member a specific job so there's no confusion, lets begin with the animal/zoo tender/keeper his/her job to measure the animals height width weight etc, next the room builder, how small/large each container will be, lets see if i wanted to fit that St. Barnard into a phone booth how would i go about it, how long will it be staying in its new quarters etc. Wouldn't it be better to get it as a puppy, that way I'd have extra room for those elk, is this making sense? Did you know you can fit the entire population of the earth in the state of Texas that would give each resident 1000 sq. ft to play with? Fit all those animals on the Ark/Ship, no problem.. :thumbsup

tob

The fact that it is not really logically possible for the animals to fit on the ship is only one of many problems with believing in the literal story. 4800 years ago people were living in China, and Egypt and building things and doing stuff. Where did the water go? All the problems of young earth theology are the same as believing in the literal world flood. It just just make logical sense is the problem.
 
We all know there were people living in various places 4800 years ago the bible will back that up. Jesus himself made this statement in Matthew..

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

tob
 
We all know there were people living in various places 4800 years ago the bible will back that up. Jesus himself made this statement in Matthew..

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

tob

They didn't all die is the problem with the flood story. There were people in Egypt building pyramids. Those people didn't die off. Same for people in China. There didn't die off. Or the people in Africa, or here in North America.

Here is something to consider. The worlds largest ship the Allure of the Seas can hold only 54000 people at double occupancy. Those rooms are small at single occupancy. It is so large it causes problems even for steel bending much less a ship filled with animals made of wood. Those are just a few of the problems with taking the story as literally true.

My point isn't to disparage your belief that it is true. You can have faith in that if you like. What I do is point out there are good reasons to take it as allegorical or metaphorical, and those reasons are valid and logical. To disparage those who think that way is wrong. I see that a lot.
 
Seems so many want to not believe Scripture .... I trust God and His Word very simple.
 
I believe it. I just don't believe Genesis is to be read as a literal fact document, but instead as a figurative allegory.
 
I understand... lots of folks agree with ya. :)
For my self in my mind/heart Geneses is as real as John 3:16 ...
 
I understand... lots of folks agree with ya. :)
For my self in my mind/heart Geneses is as real as John 3:16 ...
 
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