Noah's ark?

[unred typo]

Imagican wrote: So, I assume you believe in a 'literal' six day creation? And that dinosaurs ONLY lasted ONE day? And you analysis of carbon dating STILL offers that IF carbon 14 DOES decay at a specific rate, it CAN be used to measure time. Also, what you offer is that EVERY specimen IS contaminated BEYOND our ability to measure it. REDICULOUS. Typo, when you get sick, what do YOU do? Ever had an X-ray done? or any kind of surgery? How about cooking in your kitchen? God a microwave oven? Telephone? Cable TV? Or satalite? From your perspective, you believe in these things enough to purchase and use them, (probably couldn't live without them), yet this 'other' part of science that you simply 'don't want to believe' you discard for it's lack of compliance with what you WANT to believe.

I believe in a literal six day creation. I don’t believe dinosaurs only lasted one day. They lived with man until they went extinct, at various times for various reasons. Some may still live today except they would be much smaller than they were when they lived for hundreds of years in a more ‘dino friendly’ environment.

I don’t doubt that carbon does decay and the decay rate has been fairly constant in the last few hundred years, at least not measurably different. Every specimen could be contaminated beyond our ability to measure it if all were subjected to some kind of radioisotope changing event at the same time. If some carbon altering gas had been released during a particularly violent volcanic period four or five thousand years ago, how would we know it?


Imagican wrote: MAN has been on this earth for hundreds of thousands of years. We have found remains ON THIS CONTINENT of between 13 and twenty thousand years of age. The dinosaurs are MUCH older than these. You may choose to follow the 'fairy tales' of the church in their defining of Genesis, but that doesn't change what we HAVE learned since it was written. And what I offer takes NOTHING away from God or His Word. To the contrary, I believe that the Bible explains MOST of what I offer. The difference between what I offer and what the churches have taught is simply a matter of understanding. If you will read The Word WITHOUT the preconcieved notions or 'outside' teaching, much of it takes on a COMPLETELY different knowledge. Something akin to the 'truth' instead of fairy tales.

Actually, by reading the Bible itself, and not the opinions of men, I have come to my conclusions. I started with the same preconceived notions that you expound here. I have always loved science and nature but I since I now read the Bible without that typical scientific bias, I have come to disagree with those ‘old earth’ conclusions that some in the field have come up with.

Imagican wrote: Forensics science and palentology have made ENORMOUS advances in recent years. MUCH of it IS fact. Some IS questionable. But that the EARTH is MORE than 10,000 years of age is OBVIOUS to all but the most 'brain-washed' die hards. From your perspective ALL differnces in humans have happened in five thousand years. That's rediculous. Blacks, Asians, Europeans, Native aboriginals, etc.......all being 'made different' in a mere five thousand years. Yeah Right.

We’re not all that different, Imagican. If we looked like Men in Black or an episode of Star Trek with gills, tentacles and feelers, I might agree with you. Let’s take the reverse view. I have seen men walking around town who could do a stand in for a Neanderthal or Pithecanthropus man. God did not create us all alike. Right from the early years, Esau was a hairy ‘red’ man while his twin brother Jacob was smooth.

Imagican wrote: The MOST important issue that the churches MISSED in their interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2 is that there was actually TWO creations. The first chapter speaks of the first creation, and the second chapter states from the beginning of it that EVERYTHING WAS COMPLETED. Then comes the creation of Adam and Eve. Once you come to this realization, you quickly see that science and religion are NOT separate, but able to COMPLIMENT one another. Just because there are scientist that DON'T believe in God does NOT take away from their learning of natural science.

The accounts in Genesis are a broad outline and a review with more detail. Nothing to alarm yourself over.

Imagican wrote: Cain's wife was NOT his sister. If your son had just murdered his brother, would YOU let him take one of your daughters with him? Of course not. He went to the Land of Nod and found a wife there. OBVIOUS. And WHO did he build a 'city' for? Him and his wife and child? NO WAY. He build a city for PEOPLE. THERE were the daughters of men whom the Sons of God began to mate with. The first creation who knew of NO SINGLE GOD, began to mate with the descendants of Adam and Eve and before long they LOST their memory of the TRUE God and their hearts became EVIL continually. What IS evil? Rebelion AGAINST God.

There is no time table given for these events. Cain may have already taken his sister as wife before the murder. There is no timetable for the building of the city either. It no doubt took hundreds of years. Multiply two times two until you have twenty generations. Enough for a city?


Imagican wrote: We know that in the beginning man WAS a nomadic gatherer. Yet Adam was a farmer and his children were a farmer and a sheppard. And what about this one. In the first chapter of Genesis it is stated that once men and women were created, they were given EVERY TREE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH to be for food. Yet when Adam was created and placed in the garden, he was specifically COMMANDED NOT to eat from a tree. Contradiction. ONLY if you believe Adam was the FIRST man created. He WAS the first man created and having the BREATH of life breathed into his nostrils. He WAS the FIRST man that had communion with God. But there were probably relatively civilized GROUPS Of people WAY before Adam and Eve. All one NEED do to undertand what I am offering is READ the Word WITHOUT considering the bogus understanding of the churches. Read the first chapter and the second. JUST READ IT. It will then become OBVIOUS that there were TWO separate creations.

We don’t know that the first men were nomadic gatherers and not farmers. Twenty years ago, I had the most beautiful garden full of vegetables. I would give you a thousand dollars to find ANY trace of it today. Squash and pumpkins are notorious for making poor fossils.

Your contradiction is quite feeble. Several possibilities are obvious. God planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil after he had given all trees for food or it didn’t have fruit until after he forbid it’s picking or the one tree was not mentioned until later.



Imagican wrote: And HOW do you think that in a mere five thousand years SO MANY different religions could have possibly formed IF EVERYONE on the planet is an offspring of Noah? Noah and his family KNEW God. Now, how do you suppose that ALL the descendants of Noah DO NOT have at least an historical understanding of God? These became God's CHOSEN people, the Hebrews/Jews.

I wonder if a preacher could have grandchildren who have never opened a Bible? All it takes is one generation who reject the Word of God given to their parents to start another religion that is completely different. I bet you could not begin to count the religions that have began just in the last century. You really haven’t thought this through, have you? Where do you think all the flood legends have come from?



Imagican wrote: And where do you suppose the line was drawn that distinguished the differnce between Gentile and Jew? Were they ALL descendants of Noah, there would BE NO DIFFERENCE IN THE BLOOD LINE.

The Israelites were only the children of Abraham by his wife, Sarah. Not even the son of Abraham by Hagar was counted, nor are the children of Abraham’s wives after Sarah died. Only the descendants of Abraham and Sarah are Israelites. Ishmaelites are the descendants of Abraham’s son by Hagar. I believe they are Arabs today. Have you ever actually read the Bible?

 

[Imagican]

Unred,

From your understanding I guess your question made some sort of sense to 'you'. I have offered The Word AS WRITTEN, and you ask if I have ever read it. Nice one. It doesn't change anything though except to 'show' that you would rather lift yourself up by trying to bring others down. Not surprising for this IS the way of the world.

You 'talk around' the answers and read into what you choose. So your 'reading of the Bible' has offered YOU little understanding other than what the 'traditional churches' have taught you. Too bad.

You pre-suppose MUCH. I simply take the Word for WHAT it says. You guess at the meanings behind the statements. I simply accept them for what they state. However, I too use a microwave and have NO idea HOW it works other than radiation. I don't NEED to know HOW it works in order to cook some popcorn. You, however, reject that which you choose and accept that which is convienient according to YOUR beliefs.

There is NO reason to believe that Adam and Eve had ANY other children until AFTER Cain and Abel. That is nothing other than an assumption based on NO evidence other than what you 'want' to believe.

You would 'alter' the history of mankind in order to 'fit' your understanding. I simply accept the evidence and understand that it fits PERFECTLY with The Word of God.

Yes, unred, I HAVE read the Bible, a couple of times. But what difference would that make to someone that makes it say what they 'want' it to? If one is UNABLE to understand it wouldn't make a differnce HOW MANY times they've read it, they would STILL be as ignorant to the 'truth' AFTER their reading as they were before they ever started. Kind of like believing that the earth is ONLY ten thousand years old. Childish wishes do not truth make.

Abraham WAS the father of both Issac and Ishmael. But we have NO evidence that God made Black folks BLACK or chinese yellow so far as them being descendants of Noah. Awful lot of funky genes there my friend. And we HAVE learned alot about them too. For instance, unless there IS the factor present for one to HAVE a black child there can NOT be one. Yet, when we study the environment from which these originated, it becomes apparent that ALL those that live in direct sunlight along the equator ARE darker skined than those that don't. Common sense really when one simply accepts the 'truth'. And we also have tribes like the Maori who have a verbal history that goes back PAST The flood that you are so quick to believe was world wide.

None of this really plays a part in 'Salvation', so I guess it really doesn't matter for one to believe whatever. But for a 'semi-complete' understanding of what happened to man from a Biblical standpoint, one MUST accept the 'truth' as we discover it. ALL the details of creation WERE NOT offered through the Word. Much WILL be and has been discovered though. We learn MORE each day. We WERE created in the 'image' of God. Capable of learning the details of His creation and HOW they were used. It was only a couple of hundred years ago that you would have stated the same things about DNA or bacteria. Since you couldn't SEE it, it wouldn't have been real. Fortunately there have ALWAYS been those that would choose to UNDERSTAND rather than 'make up' what the world around them contains. Those just five hundred years ago of the Catholic clergy insisted that the Earth WAS the center of the universe. The were WRONG about that too. Do you think that was the ONLY thing that they misinterpreted? That's what I mean when I point out that 'your' understanding is NOTHING other than what you have learned and been incouraged to accept by whatever church or churches you have attended. Good luck finding the 'truth' there my friend.

MEC

 

[unred typo]

Imagican wrote: There is NO reason to believe that Adam and Eve had ANY other children until AFTER Cain and Abel. That is nothing other than an assumption based on NO evidence other than what you 'want' to believe. You would 'alter' the history of mankind in order to 'fit' your understanding. I simply accept the evidence and understand that it fits PERFECTLY with The Word of God.

I don’t care when daughters were born to Adam. I don’t have to make any assumption about it one way or another. The text doesn’t say when the daughters were born, nor does it say that Adam forbid Cain from taking a wife from among them as you assumed. Are you sure that in a hundred and thirty years Adam and Eve only had two sons? Especially since God had told them to be fruitful and multiply. They must be in the Planned Parenthood Hall of Fame:
Genesis 5:4
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


Imagican wrote: Yes, unred, I HAVE read the Bible, a couple of times. But what difference would that make to someone that makes it say what they 'want' it to? If one is UNABLE to understand it wouldn't make a differnce HOW MANY times they've read it, they would STILL be as ignorant to the 'truth' AFTER their reading as they were before they ever started. Kind of like believing that the earth is ONLY ten thousand years old. Childish wishes do not truth make.

That’s quite true. What it said would make little impact on a person who was unable to understand it, or had childish wishes to make it say what they wanted it to say.




Imagican wrote: Abraham WAS the father of both Issac and Ishmael. But we have NO evidence that God made Black folks BLACK or chinese yellow so far as them being descendants of Noah.

Would you like to tell us what these verses in Genesis mean?
9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Imagican wrote: Awful lot of funky genes there my friend. And we HAVE learned alot about them too. For instance, unless there IS the factor present for one to HAVE a black child there can NOT be one. Yet, when we study the environment from which these originated, it becomes apparent that ALL those that live in direct sunlight along the equator ARE darker skined than those that don't. Common sense really when one simply accepts the 'truth'. And we also have tribes like the Maori who have a verbal history that goes back PAST The flood that you are so quick to believe was world wide.

As I told you, the genes were created in Adam for variety in the descendants. There was a gene for different colors of skin and hair and all other physical attributes that we have today or have had in the past.

Please explain how the Maori can have a verbal history that goes back PAST the flood. I can’t imagine how that could possibly be. Do they trace their history back to Adam without Noah or do they claim an ape-like ancestor? Or how do they figure a verbal calendar?


Imagican wrote: None of this really plays a part in 'Salvation', so I guess it really doesn't matter for one to believe whatever. But for a 'semi-complete' understanding of what happened to man from a Biblical standpoint, one MUST accept the 'truth' as we discover it. ALL the details of creation WERE NOT offered through the Word. Much WILL be and has been discovered though. We learn MORE each day. We WERE created in the 'image' of God. Capable of learning the details of His creation and HOW they were used.

Sure. The truth will be compatible with scripture. Science, or rather, falsely so-called science, will not align with the truth.


Imagican wrote: It was only a couple of hundred years ago that you would have stated the same things about DNA or bacteria. Since you couldn't SEE it, it wouldn't have been real. Fortunately there have ALWAYS been those that would choose to UNDERSTAND rather than 'make up' what the world around them contains. Those just five hundred years ago of the Catholic clergy insisted that the Earth WAS the center of the universe. The were WRONG about that too. Do you think that was the ONLY thing that they misinterpreted? That's what I mean when I point out that 'your' understanding is NOTHING other than what you have learned and been incouraged to accept by whatever church or churches you have attended. Good luck finding the 'truth' there my friend.

DNA and discoveries about bacteria have not challenged the truth of scripture. The sun being the center of our universe does not challenge the truth of scripture. What you purport does, however. When you point out that my “understanding is NOTHING other than what (I) have learned and been incouraged to accept by whatever church or churches (I) have attendedâ€Â, you really are assuming you know something about me that you obviously have no idea about. I was not catholic, nor did I learn ‘young earth creationism’ from my home church. They taught some kind of gap theory, that I have rejected since reading the Bible on my own. But your misinterpretation of my situation is nothing compared to your mistranslation of God’s word. I can see why you call it the ‘truth’ and not the truth.
God bless your search for truth, Imagican.

 

[Imagican]

Imagican wrote: There is NO reason to believe that Adam and Eve had ANY other children until AFTER Cain and Abel. That is nothing other than an assumption based on NO evidence other than what you 'want' to believe. You would 'alter' the history of mankind in order to 'fit' your understanding. I simply accept the evidence and understand that it fits PERFECTLY with The Word of God.

I don’t care when daughters were born to Adam. I don’t have to make any assumption about it one way or another. The text doesn’t say when the daughters were born, nor does it say that Adam forbid Cain from taking a wife from among them as you assumed. Are you sure that in a hundred and thirty years Adam and Eve only had two sons? Especially since God had told them to be fruitful and multiply. They must be in the Planned Parenthood Hall of Fame:

You offered it yourself. Now, the question that matters: How old were Adam and Eve when they were banished from the garden? See? What if they were 100 years old BEFORE they were banished. We don't know that they knew ANYTHING about sex or child bearing until AFTER they were removed from the garden. And THIS is EXACTLY where the misinterpretation lies. You assume that everything stated in the first chapter of Genesis was stated to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were NEVER told to be fruitful................ They WERE told of Eve's punishment for disobedience. Through pain................

Genesis 5:4
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


Imagican wrote: Yes, unred, I HAVE read the Bible, a couple of times. But what difference would that make to someone that makes it say what they 'want' it to? If one is UNABLE to understand it wouldn't make a differnce HOW MANY times they've read it, they would STILL be as ignorant to the 'truth' AFTER their reading as they were before they ever started. Kind of like believing that the earth is ONLY ten thousand years old. Childish wishes do not truth make.

That’s quite true. What it said would make little impact on a person who was unable to understand it, or had childish wishes to make it say what they wanted it to say.

What I MUST admit is that 'your' understanding IS much simpler to understand. That doesn't make it 'truth' however. The 'truth' is that creation was MUCH more complex than man at the time of Moses could have possibly understood. We have LEARNED much, on our own, since these words were written down. And to continue in the 'simple' understanding that you have chosen is to DENY ALL that has been learned. I have offered NOTHING that contradicts the Word. I have simply taken it at face value.

Now, concerning Noah: Do you REALLY believe that Noah collected two of EVERY unclean beast on the PLANET to place in the ark? Boy, this guy must have been ONE FAST RUNNER. Two of EVERY BEAST ON THE PLANET WOULD NOT BE NEEDED TO start over after a LOCALIZED flood. Only what was needed until animals migrated BACK into the flooded AREA. It makes for a 'much BETTER' story to imagine a 'world wide' flood. But, in reality, a world wide flood wasn't NECESSARY to acomplish God's plan. ONLY those people that had 'gone outside their bloodlines NEEDED to be destroyed. That is EXACTLY WHY Noah was chosen to 'start over'. The 'second creation' NEEDED to BE PURE for 'a time'. Noah was the ONLY man NEEDED to 'start over', (Noah and his sons).

Look, my friend, at the time of Moses, our CONTINENT would have been considered an UNKNOWN ISLAND. These people didn't understand 'their OWN history' much less geological history. The didn't even understand that cells make up life or ANYTHING of a 'scientific' knowledge. So, their understanding was SO limited at the time the ONLY information that they could be offered was limited to THEIR UNDERSTANDING. Things ARE different now. You may 'choose' to ignore or DENY this, but you doing so doesn't change the FACT that our understanding of the physical Earth is LIGHT YEARS beyond theirs.

And speaking of 'light years'. Funny, but the light that we see from stars has TAKEN light years to REACH US. If the Earth were ONLY ten thousand years old, their light would NOT EVEN HAVE REACHED US YET REGARDLESS OF WHAT WAS CREATED FIRST. See how limited your understanding becomes when you simply accept what the churches teach?

God's time is NOT limited TO HIS CREATION. He CREATED IT. As far as we know, HE CREATED TIME ITSELF. So, to limit your understanding to the point that you 'think' that His day is OUR day, (24 hour rotation period of a tiny planet that HE CREATED), just goes to show how you have limited your own understanding. God is MUCH bigger than that, my friend. His day may have been the rotation of the GALAXY or the UNIVERSE for that matter. Remember, these things were written according to the understanding of a VERY primitive people.

Imagican wrote: Abraham WAS the father of both Issac and Ishmael. But we have NO evidence that God made Black folks BLACK or chinese yellow so far as them being descendants of Noah.

Would you like to tell us what these verses in Genesis mean?
9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

It means exactly what it states. But DON'T forget, this was NOT written by people that KNEW ANYTHING about the REST of the WORLD.

Isles of the Gentiles. Do you suppose they wrote of that which they COULD NOT HAVE EVEN UNDERSTOOD? Or do you suppose they refer to the tiny little section of Earth that they DID know something about? I'll leave that one up to you.

10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

You seem to insist on taking what 'you want' literal and ignoring other examples of The Written Word as it was understood by those that 'wrote' it. I can show you where durring the plagues of Egypt, it is written that the locust covered the FACE OF THE EARTH. Is this literal? Or is it simply offered from the perspective of the writer? To those that witnessed it, it most likely appeard that the locust covered the face of the Earth. Yet, in reality, it was only necessary to cover the face of the Earth IN EGYPT.

Imagican wrote: Awful lot of funky genes there my friend. And we HAVE learned alot about them too. For instance, unless there IS the factor present for one to HAVE a black child there can NOT be one. Yet, when we study the environment from which these originated, it becomes apparent that ALL those that live in direct sunlight along the equator ARE darker skined than those that don't. Common sense really when one simply accepts the 'truth'. And we also have tribes like the Maori who have a verbal history that goes back PAST The flood that you are so quick to believe was world wide.

As I told you, the genes were created in Adam for variety in the descendants. There was a gene for different colors of skin and hair and all other physical attributes that we have today or have had in the past.

Then why don't ALL people HAVE THESE GENES TODAY?

Please explain how the Maori can have a verbal history that goes back PAST the flood. I can’t imagine how that could possibly be. Do they trace their history back to Adam without Noah or do they claim an ape-like ancestor? Or how do they figure a verbal calendar?

Many peoples had a 'verbal history' LONG before they created writtings. The American Indians for example. How do you suppose they kept track of time without a 'written calendar'?


Imagican wrote: None of this really plays a part in 'Salvation', so I guess it really doesn't matter for one to believe whatever. But for a 'semi-complete' understanding of what happened to man from a Biblical standpoint, one MUST accept the 'truth' as we discover it. ALL the details of creation WERE NOT offered through the Word. Much WILL be and has been discovered though. We learn MORE each day. We WERE created in the 'image' of God. Capable of learning the details of His creation and HOW they were used.

Sure. The truth will be compatible with scripture. Science, or rather, falsely so-called science, will not align with the truth.

But I offer that it DOES align with the truth, (scripture).


Imagican wrote: It was only a couple of hundred years ago that you would have stated the same things about DNA or bacteria. Since you couldn't SEE it, it wouldn't have been real. Fortunately there have ALWAYS been those that would choose to UNDERSTAND rather than 'make up' what the world around them contains. Those just five hundred years ago of the Catholic clergy insisted that the Earth WAS the center of the universe. The were WRONG about that too. Do you think that was the ONLY thing that they misinterpreted? That's what I mean when I point out that 'your' understanding is NOTHING other than what you have learned and been incouraged to accept by whatever church or churches you have attended. Good luck finding the 'truth' there my friend.

DNA and discoveries about bacteria have not challenged the truth of scripture. The sun being the center of our universe does not challenge the truth of scripture. No, unred and I have never claimed that this has changed the 'truth' as offered in scripture. What I DID point out however, is that the truth changed what the 'churches' were TEACHING that scripture indicated. And much they had simply assumed without ANY scriptural backing. What you purport does, however. When you point out that my “understanding is NOTHING other than what (I) have learned and been incouraged to accept by whatever church or churches (I) have attendedâ€Â, you really are assuming you know something about me that you obviously have no idea about. I was not catholic, nor did I learn ‘young earth creationism’ from my home church. They taught some kind of gap theory, that I have rejected since reading the Bible on my own. But your misinterpretation of my situation is nothing compared to your mistranslation of God’s word. I can see why you call it the ‘truth’ and not the truth.

I compelled you to 're-read' Genesis 'without' the preconceptions of the teachings of the churches. I doubt that you did this. For to do so, it is PLAIN to see that the FIRST chapter of Genesis WAS COMPLETE BEFORE the creation of Adam. The Bible STATES such. You MUST throw out ALL evidence in order to 'back up' your Adam as the first man on the planet understanding. Adam was a farmer/ man was a nomadic gatherer in the beginning. It says, 'There was not a man to till the earth', yet. Cain went to the land of Nod where he found a wife. You say he took a sister with him. The Sons of God mated with the daughters of men. You say these were fallen angels. I say that the daughters of men were the first creation. Noah was a just man and PERFECT in his generations. You don't KNOW what this means, I say it means EXACTLY what it says. Noah's bloodline was untainted from Adam and Eve until his father, Lamech.

One more GOOD ONE for ya unred, When Cain slew his brother and God decided his punishment. He stated that He was to place a mark on Cain so that EVERY one that would see him would KNOW what he had done. Cain states that this punsishment is more than he can bear, 'for EVERY MAN that sees the mark will attempt to KILL him'. Now, my question to you: WHO, WHO is God placing the mark on him to warn? And WHO is Cain afraid will attempt to kill him. If Adam and his children are the ONLY people on the planet, EVERY ONE of them ALREADY knows what Cain has done. So WHO are these that God is warning and who are these that Cain is afraid of? Answer me this one my friend.

See, I take what the Word SAYS and try to understand it. You have simply accepted what you have been taught without questioning ANY of it that doesn't line up with these teachings. I have refused to allow them to get away with that which DOESSN'T line up with scripture. That simple. I have read it and read it and read it with prayer and humility until the 'truth' has been revealed. All the questions of dinosaurs and their ages. All the questions of 'the fall'. All the questions of the 'flood'. These DO have answers that contain MUCH more 'truth' than the churches simple understanding of them. One day those that live eternal WILL understand it ALL. For now, the world understands as the the world understands and MOST of this is FAR FAR from independent study or understanding. Most is more 'wives tales' than anything resembling the 'truth'.

Please answer my question concerning Cains mark. And please don't think that future children and descendants of Adam and Eve will work for an answer. Cain WOULD not have been quick enough to 'SEE' into the future so don't even waster your words if this is your only answer.
And may God Bless you, my friend.
God bless your search for truth, Imagican.

 

[unred typo]

Imagican wrote: Now, the question that matters: How old were Adam and Eve when they were banished from the garden? See? What if they were 100 years old BEFORE they were banished. We don't know that they knew ANYTHING about sex or child bearing until AFTER they were removed from the garden. And THIS is EXACTLY where the misinterpretation lies. You assume that everything stated in the first chapter of Genesis was stated to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were NEVER told to be fruitful................ They WERE told of Eve's punishment for disobedience. Through pain................

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Now I know you want to make this part of your first creation but there is only one. The one you think is another account is only further details fleshing out the first account. Maybe you should read it again.




Imagican wrote: It means exactly what it states. But DON'T forget, this was NOT written by people that KNEW ANYTHING about the REST of the WORLD.

You’re right. It was written by inspiration of God. He had a clear view of the entire planet from where he sits.



Imagican wrote: Then why don't ALL people HAVE THESE GENES TODAY?

How long will it take you to breed poodles before you come up with a Great Dane? Genetic material is missing from some people’s DNA, so they don’t all have the same genes. As people separated from each other, various genes were separated from the gene pool and their specific traits were more intensified, giving individual populations different characteristics. Since some peoples have actually gone extinct, we will never have the complete mix that Adam had in the beginning, even if all races intermarry and mingle all the genes we have left.



Imagican wrote: And speaking of 'light years'. Funny, but the light that we see from stars has TAKEN light years to REACH US. If the Earth were ONLY ten thousand years old, their light would NOT EVEN HAVE REACHED US YET REGARDLESS OF WHAT WAS CREATED FIRST. See how limited your understanding becomes when you simply accept what the churches teach?

God doesn’t give a lot of detail about the creation of the stars:
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
A simple explanation to your concern is that the stars were created at a certain distance to the earth so as to give light upon the surface of our planet and moved in a nano second to their position further away, leaving the light trails that are light years in length.



Imagican wrote: Now, my question to you: WHO, WHO is God placing the mark on him to warn? And WHO is Cain afraid will attempt to kill him. If Adam and his children are the ONLY people on the planet, EVERY ONE of them ALREADY knows what Cain has done. So WHO are these that God is warning and who are these that Cain is afraid of? Answer me this one my friend.

I’m really glad you brought that up. This makes it quite scriptural that Adam and Eve were not celibate after the birth of Cain and Abel but had many other children who also multiplied and lived in the earth at the time. According to Genesis 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth: Adam’s other sons did not resemble him. A hundred and thirty years is quite a span between siblings, wouldn‘t you say? I really don‘t think Eve knew much about birth control.

I have tried your scenario, btw. It just doesn't cut it. It is easier to align yourself with the popular scientific notions of the day, however. You asked a lot of questions you seemed to think would be overlooked by a casual reader. I don’t want to be careless in my study, so I do appreciate your input. Compromising with the truth to make a message more palatable is never the answer.

 

[unred typo]

Imagican, since you are confused by the creation account in Genesis, I have taken the verses and put them in chronological order. See if this doesn’t clear up any confusion that you may have had:

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
and God brought the creatures unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

As you can see the accounts are one and mesh together nicely.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I was surfing some Christian sites, and saw this. I thought it might be a visual aid to this thread.
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/bigark.htm

"The illustration below is a side-view scale drawing showing the relative size of Noah's ark (450 feet long, 45 feet high - the red line) to a modern-day Boeing 747 airliner (232 feet long, 64 feet high). As you can see, Noah had approximately enough room to have carried not one, but two 747s (with their wings detached and stowed separately) inside the ark!"

 

[Lewis]

Good going Gabby.

 

[Guest]

And that ship was built by a small group of people over a hundred years or so, out of wood and pitch. Yeah, I bet that would be quite sea worthy, especially on the violently pitching ocean that was in turmoil. :roll:

Do you realize how many trees it would take to build the ark? Find them, cut them, drag them to the build site? To cut them using very primative tools, prepare the logs (taking off leaves and branches), disposing SOMEWHERE of the unneeded portions? How dried out would the wood at the bottom of the ship be compared to the wood used for the top parts? How would that difference in density effect it? Where would he have found THAT much pitch to seal all the wood? These are just a FEW questions that arrise from this, and I haven't even gotten into the logistics of placing every animal type in the ark, including animals from vaste regions. The amount of work to care for them. The family and animals surviving on this ark for A YEAR!! How these animals would fair afterwards in a soggy dead wasteland. Again, just a FEW items.

And the most important issues, the fact that there is NO evidence of a year long deluge in any strata. There has been unbroken history and art from Egyptian cultures, Chinese cultures. . . .

:-?

 

[Lewis]

It took a hundread and twenty years to build that Ark. And think it would be safe to say that his sons helped out too. And another thing man, when God sends you to do something that He has ordained, He supplys what ever is needed.

 

[Atonement]

Wow, I just came in to take a peek. This thread is like reading a novel. So much to say w/o paraphrasing it. Everyone wants to write a book. Anyway Orion do you believe at all that there was an Ark, or just the time frame that it was built in?

 

[Imagican]

And unred,

I noticed that you deliberately left out the answers to the questions that I posed. Tough ones from your perspective huh?

Now guys, let's be realisitic here. IF Noah actually gathered TWO of EVERY animal that exists, why are there no records or specimens STILL in existence in the AREA that he landed AFTER the Flood? No GRIZZLY BEARS, NO MOUNTAIN LIONS, NO ZEBRAS, NO LIONS, NO ELEPHANTS, NO DUCK BILLED PLATYPUS, NO KANGAROOS, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

You take the words literal as if they were written for 'your' understanding. NOT SO. The information was given to a people that had ALMOST NO understanding of ANYTHING compared to what has been learned since. God CREATED US IN HIS IMAGE. Hard to tell sometimes when those that supposedly believe in Him refuse to attempt understanding. He NEVER meant for us to BE ignorant. The tree of knowledge WOULD have eventually been FREELY GIVEN to us upon our maturation. Many indicate that they are UNWILLING to learn. The knowledge of good and evil was NOT ALL EVIL. And basically what was involved was KNOWLEDGE PERIOD. Man was simply NOT READY for the discernment to know HOW to use it. We HAVE matured much. I admit that it seems like ONLY A FEW HAVE, but these have at least.

EVERYTHING written in the Bible is NOT the COMPLETE story. If you believe this, you have simply chosen to do so for the sake of excusing oneself from learning.

Do those that believe that the Earth is ONLY ten thousand years old believe that the ice bridge existed a mere 10,000 years ago or less. And that ALL the continental movement and separation of land masses, migration of men and animals has taken place in LESS than 10.000 years? Just two or three hundred years ago it wouldn't have been surprising to hear these words. But we have come SO far in our ability to discern the EVIDENCE of ancient Earth that for those to INSIST upon it now makes them look like backwoods hillbillys or something. As I have stated previous: All these that insist upon this 'young Earth' don't hessitate to allow a doctor to shove antibiotics in their arms when they are sick. Or allow a 'Heart specialist' perform a 'triple bipass' when needed. But will take the SAME effort that has been expended to explain the past and say, "Nope, I don't WANT to believe it. It CHANGES what I WANT to believe and I'm NOT going to do it". Funny folks indeed.

Does ANYONE out there KNOW what the word REPLINISH means. Was that word a MISTAKE or was it INTENDED to be in Genesis? To REPLINISH means to Plinish AGAIN. To 'do it OVER again'. Now, if Adam WAS the FIRST man EVER, HOW could God command him to REPLINISH the Earth? Sounds kinda foolish don't it?

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Does ANYONE out there KNOW what the word REPLINISH means. Was that word a MISTAKE or was it INTENDED to be in Genesis? To REPLINISH means to Plinish AGAIN. To 'do it OVER again'. Now, if Adam WAS the FIRST man EVER, HOW could God command him to REPLINISH the Earth? Sounds kinda foolish don't it?

MEC

A brief study of the concordance tells me that the same word (4390) could be translated as "fill".
Oh, and yes. I believe the Bible. Now you know just how foolish I am.

 

[Atonement]

A Big Misconception about how many animals were brought onto the Ark. Many believe it was only two, when actually it was seven. So many people do not read chapter 7 verses 2 and 3.

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.


I know of only 4 unclean animals, maybe you can research to find more that are unclean in the Bible.

1) camel Lev 11:4
2) coney or horse - donkey Lev 11:5
3) hare or pig - Lev 11:6
4) swine - Lev 11:7

So actually Noah took aboard more then two of each kind. There are more clean animals then there are unclean..

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Do you suppose dinosaurs to be clean or unclean?

 

[Atonement]

LOL good question, and I have no answer

 

[Imagican]

Wow, I just came in to take a peek. This thread is like reading a novel. So much to say w/o paraphrasing it. Everyone wants to write a book. Anyway Orion do you believe at all that there was an Ark, or just the time frame that it was built in?

As a matter of fact, I'm in the process of writting one at this very moment. It's called 'Cain'. Half way through and if it ever gets published, remember that you heard it here first, (he he he).

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I am well aware of the clean vs unclean animals. That wasn't the point. The point has been ignored by EVERYONE that chooses to 'overlook' my questions. I HAVE answers to them. But do you?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And folks, I am WELL aware of how difficult it is for someone to believe something their whole lives and then be confronted with the 'truth' and be totally unable to accept it. There are those that go so far as to deny men walked on the moon or that Elvis died. Not much difference here than those that have been faithful to their churches and then find out that they have been misled in understanding. I have witnessed this often. I have even witnessed members of churches that were led to believe that their FAITH was NOT what it 'should be' for them to be healed. Such atrocious behavior should not be legally allowed but such is the nature of the 'system' that we live under. And what a 'relief' it is for those that 'realize' the 'truth' and are 'set free' from such abusive behavior. Some NEVER do realize this though and continue to 'stick with what they KNOW' regardless of evidence to the contrary. So be it.

True science is nothing more than the 'discovering' of the methods God used in creation. There are certainly scientist that insist that they don't believe in a 'Creator'. So what. There are many that worshp Alah and many that are Hindus. Such is life. But just because someone doesn't believe in a Creator DOES NOT take away from research that they may do. I'm quite sure that there have been many in the medical profession that MANY benefit from EVERY day that were atheists. So what. What they discovered was STILL information concerning creation. Gravity-it DOES exist. Galaxies-they DO exist, bacteria-they DO exist, DNA-it DOES exist. So, one can certainly play the proverbial 'ostrich with his head in the sand', but that doesn't make the 'truth' go away.

MEC

 

[Atonement]

I don't have all the answers nor do I claim to. Thus it must be noted that I do not intend to seek the answer your looking to receive. God Bless