[__ Science __ ] Noahs Flood explained and Evolution refuted.

[KV-44-v1]

You still don't get it. "Land" means some ground. Could be "my land", "this nation (ertetz Israel)", "hereabouts", or whatever. "Tebel" means "the whole world." Which is why God said "land" not "whole world."

6 Now Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of water came upon the earth. 7 Then Noah and his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives with him entered the ark because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean animals and animals that are not clean and birds and everything that crawls on the ground,

EVERYTHING?? WHY EVERYTHING?? WHAT IS EVEN THE NEED FOR AN ARK IF THE FLOOD IS JUST LOCAL??

If everything "evolves", why care if species go extinct?? you BE LIEVE that God is still forming new creatures, so why care about extinction of species (not kinds or genuses) when God will just "evolve" something new? evolution tramples on being a good steward!

Yes, barbarian, WHAT view of the Bible do you hold? HIGH... or low?

 

[Paul E. Michael]

That's a legal definition.

What exactly do you mean?

Which is somewhat different.

From what?

If a state permitted marriage of brother and sister, would that then cease to be incest?

Read the definition carefully:

Incest: "sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other."

Marriage is not incest. Rather, sexual relations meeting certain criteria are incest. That's even according to what you quoted:

" SEXUAL INTERCOURSE between closely related persons."

Not:

" MARRIAGE between closely related persons."

And, whether or not any given state permits or prohibits certain sexual relations has no bearing, whatsoever, on whether or not they are incest. What makes something incest, and something else not incest, is God's Law.

Personally, I think all of these would be incest,

All cousin-cousin, brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, etc., sexual relations that have occurred in at least the last 3.5 thousand years or so are definitely incest, without a doubt. But some brother-sister and cousin-cousin sexual relations in earlier times -- in ancient Bible-times -- were not. God did not class Cain as too closely related to his sister to be married to her, so Cain's sexual relations with his sister/wife were not incest. Same goes for Adam and Eve's son Seth and his sister/wife.

The bottom line is, whether or not something is incest is wholly dependent upon God's Law, and nothing man says or does can alter that.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Land" is a word, and words don't mean things. Only sayers of words (and only sometimes) mean things, and they do so by means of the words they choose to say. Words are not sayers of words, and words do not say themselves. Words just kind of sit there passively, silently, waiting for somebody to use them, and perhaps mean something by them.

This is a super weak argument. Watch barbarian try to spin this to suit his "Genesis is allegory" notions.
in your rush to defend the Bible you accidentally give him a helicopter landing pad. :/

 

[Barbarian]

You still don't get it. "Land" means some ground. Could be "my land", "this nation (ertetz Israel)", "hereabouts", or whatever. "Tebel" means "the whole world." Which is why God said "land" not "whole world."

Wrong. super wrong.

No, that's what the words mean in Hebrew. And it makes your new revision impossible.

EVERYTHING?? WHY EVERYTHING?? WHAT IS EVEN THE NEED FOR AN ARK IF THE FLOOD IS JUST LOCAL?? WHAT RUBBISH

Regional. Thousands of square miles covered in most of the possible cases. And of course he took the animals from that area. No koalas, no polar bears. No lemurs.

If everything "evolves", why care if species go extinct??

If humans reproduce, who cares if someone dies? I don't think you've given that very much though. And yes, we do have major extinction events that cause lots of disruption.

you BE LIEVE that God is still forming new creatures

Speciation is an observed fact. A lot of creationists now admit that new species, genera, and sometimes families of organisms evolve. Except they don't like using the "E-word."

evolution tramples on being a good steward!

Don't see how. We observe it happening in populations all around us. Why would God trample on being a good steward? Remember what evolution is, and this might be easier for you to understand.

Yes, barbarian, WHAT view of the Bible do you hold? HIGH... or low?

I just accept it as it is. Forget "high" and "low." Just be humble enough to let the Holy Spirit in and you don't have to worry about "high" and "low."

And what if you get it wrong? It doesn't really matter, unless you make an idol of your interpretation. YE creationists are no less Christian than the rest of us.

 

[KV-44-v1]

You still don't get it. "Land" means some ground. Could be "my land", "this nation (ertetz Israel)", "hereabouts", or whatever. "Tebel" means "the whole world." Which is why God said "land" not "whole world."

given your love of allegory, why should the whole Flood be a allegory and not just that "land" part?? use Scripture in light of Scripture. perhaps the land is allegory for the entire world.

 

[Barbarian]

Well, no, it really doesn't. "Land" is a word, and words don't mean things.

Noah Webster disagrees with you. So do the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary. Words mean things. And if you don't use them as they were used when they were written, you've lost your way.

So, what you have to do is cite/quote whatever Scripture passage(s) you have in mind, in which you are controversially claiming the Author used the word "land" to mean "only some, but not all land"

That's the usual use. For example, "eretz Israel" means "the land of Israel."

Tebel, on the other hand, always means the whole world. Which is why God used "eretz" for the flood. Could some errant scribe have gotten it wrong, and it's incorrect as we see it in the Bible? It's possible. There are inconsequential errors like that, where it doesn't involve the actual lesson, e.g. mustard seeds are not the smallest seeds.

But as you know, it doesn't matter to salvation. If I were to decide that one had to accept a limited flood, or an allegorical flood in order to be a Christian, then I would have put my opinions above the word of God. That, I will not do.

 

[KV-44-v1]

I just accept it as it is

if you did youd have High view!

" Just be humble enough to let the Holy Spirit in and you don't have to worry " Barbarian, 2024

Amen

 

[KV-44-v1]

Noah Webster disagrees with you. So do the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary. Words mean things

So then Genesis is not an allegory.
So you bounce from claiming its allegory to implying its not and right back again.

the shifting mind (James 1:8!) of a planetwide-flood denier and evolutioner. yeesh.
and the stable mind of Bible believing YEC.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Which is why God used "eretz" for the flood

it could also mean ground.

18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 And the water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. 20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. 21 So all creatures that moved on the earth perished: birds, livestock, animals, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. 23 So He wiped out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from mankind to animals, to crawling things, and the birds of the sky, and they were wiped out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. 24 The water prevailed upon the earth for 150 days.

Wow, absolute language?? almost as if the flood WASNT merely local. LOL.
good luck trying to fit the absolute language with your limited-flood ideas!

 

[Barbarian]

What exactly do you mean?

A legal definition is what the state says, not what God says. Which is somewhat different.

From what?

From what God says.
If a state permitted marriage of brother and sister, would that then cease to be incest?

Incest: "sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other."

Yes. The state assumes marriage entails sexual relations. Go figure.

And, whether or not any given state permits or prohibits certain sexual relations has no bearing, whatsoever, on whether or not they are incest. What makes something incest, and something else not incest, is God's Law.

Right.

All cousin-cousin, brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, etc., sexual relations that have occurred in at least the last 3.5 thousand years or so are definitely incest, without a doubt. But some brother-sister and cousin-cousin sexual relations in earlier times -- in ancient Bible-times -- were not.

Lot and his daughters?

Thing is, incest isn't just immoral. Like most things God prohibits, it leads to unhappiness and pain. Genetically, humans just can't do it for generations without severe consequences.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

This is a super weak argument.

Why do you call pointing out the fact that words don't mean things/only persons mean things, "weak"? Do you disagree? Do you imagine words do mean things?

Watch barbarian try to spin this to suit his "Genesis is allegory" notions.

So, you're calling what I presented "weak" because he will have to try to somehow spin it to get it to work for his ends? I rather thought that for someone to have to try to spin an opponent's argument to achieve his ends would be a glaring advertisement that he knows he has no hope of responding to it, to anyone's satisfaction, without spinning it.
How do you imagine he will try to spin the fact I presented, that words don't mean things/only persons mean things? What advantage do you imagine he could get out of that fact?

 

[Barbarian]

Noah Webster disagrees with you. So do the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary. Words mean things

So then Genesis is not an allegory.

Perhaps you don't know what "allegory" means. What do you think it means?

So you bounce from claiming its allegory to implying its not and right back again.

I happen to think that there was a flood, but not a worldwide flood. God rules out a worldwide flood, but not a regional one. But I could be wrong. Doesn't matter, so long as I get the lesson He's teaching.

the shifting mind (James 1:8!) of a planetwide-flood denier and evolutioner. yeesh.

I don't think you're shifting; I think you're just having a lot of trouble reconciling your interpretation with reality.
For all the obvious reasons.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

You still don't get it.

You still have not proved it. Surely you don't seriously expect that I'm going to just jump to assuming it along with you, just because you keep reasserting it and failing to prove it?

"Land" means some ground.

That's what you assume. Let's hear your "proof" for it. What's holding you up?

What does the word, "land", say? If it doesn't say anything (and it doesn't), then it doesn't mean anything. Does the word, "land", talk to you, Barbarian? Does the word, "land", have a mind, and think? Do you talk to that noun, and have conversations with it?

Oh, BTW: ALL land is SOME ground.

 

[hawkman]

Please remember this as you post .

TOS 1.1: Grant others the courtesy to be understood and acknowledge their views. As best as one is capable, speak truth in love.; ( Mathew 7:12, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13)
TOS 1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

 

[KV-44-v1]

What do you think it means?

Hm. What do you think it means?

God rules out a worldwide flood, but not a regional one.

Cite the verse.

don't think you're shifting; I think you're just having a lot of trouble reconciling your interpretation with reality.
For all the obvious reasons.

I noticed the strategy Barb used.
Set my statment up as if it refers to me and not him.
It is the one who denies the planetwide flood & sells evilution, who shifts, NOT me.

Be on the lookout for that.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Words mean things

So, by your word, "mean", you're not referring to any volitional or intellectual activity? Do words think?

 

[KV-44-v1]

What advantage do you imagine he could get out of that fact?

he would use it to support "Genesis is allegory".
""if words dont mean things, then how do i know you mean what you say and are not giving us a allegory? how would i know Genesis is a history, and that none of the words mean what is written it is just allegory?""

so yes, that suits his ends.

 

[KV-44-v1]

I'll give this for Barb to chew on, since he hasnt given any solid rebuttal to the Bible verses that i gave, i highlighted the verses in GREEN:

it could also mean ground.

18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 And the water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. 20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. 21 So all creatures that moved on the earth perished: birds, livestock, animals, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. 23 So He wiped out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from mankind to animals, to crawling things, and the birds of the sky, and they were wiped out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. 24 The water prevailed upon the earth for 150 days.

Wow, absolute language?? almost as if the flood WASNT merely local.

 

[Barbarian]

So, by your word, "mean", you're not referring to any volitional or intellectual activity?

Words Mean Things – I Timothy 3:1-13​

Words Mean Things - I Timothy 3:1-13

Someone we know often uses the phrase: “Words mean things.” As a Bible teacher, he goes through a passage emphasizing key words, and aids the understanding of those he teaches, by defining words. Particularly when coming to instruction that some of us may resist because it challenges previously held

bereanbiblesociety.org

 

[KV-44-v1]

Words Mean Things – I Timothy 3:1-13​

Words Mean Things - I Timothy 3:1-13

Someone we know often uses the phrase: “Words mean things.” As a Bible teacher, he goes through a passage emphasizing key words, and aids the understanding of those he teaches, by defining words. Particularly when coming to instruction that some of us may resist because it challenges previously held

bereanbiblesociety.org

yes. this is why Genesis is not an allegory that can mean anything.

instead it is HISTORY that means ONE thing.
Creation of man means creation of man, not evolution of man.
the flood covering all the earth means all the earth, not a part of the earth.

ONLY ONE THING. not a potentiality of things, like you have, if an allegory is open ended.
If Genesis is allegory, then it is an open allegory.

All other allegories in the Bible i know of are closed allegories, ie God says what they mean.
Do you know of any open end allegories in the Bible?