Obedience unto righteousness?

[donadams]

OK.
I believe in the IC.
Full of grace...
No room for anything else.
But I still don't understand what Mary has to do with the 4 spiritual laws.
And I never heard of these laws BTW.
Do you have a source?

Source for the four laws would be campus crusade for Christ

 

[donadams]

Yes, exactly.
Romans says we're slaves of the one we obey.

So first you decide WHO you want to obey, and then you're slave to that being.

But it says obedience is a cause of righteousness

 

[for_his_glory]

You have been told so many times to make your Catholic threads within the Autonomous Catholic zone where I am moving this over to that forum.

Now that I moved this thread I will reply to it about Mary.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

No man or woman has ever ascended up to heaven when they dies, but yet in the grave waiting until the resurrection of the saints when Christ returns.

Luke 1:26-38 Gabriel announces to Mary that of Christ's birth through her as she found favor in God. This all came about before her and Joseph were married so Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Notice in this verse that only Mary is mentioned as normally people would say the son of Joseph and Mary. Jesus had four half brothers, James, Joses, Juda and Simon and some sisters, but it's not known how many sisters he had or what their names were. The reason they were all half brothers and sisters is because Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

Mary's descent comes through David's son Nathan, Luke 3:31. To fulfill God's promise to establish David's throne forever, God honored Nathan by making him the ancestor of the promised King (Messiah) who would sit on David's throne throughout eternity, Luke 1:31-33. Mary having no brothers to inherit the throne the inheritance would come to her first son being Jesus.

This is why God found favor only in Mary as still being a virgin before she married. Joseph descent from David was broken in being heir to the throne of David as one of his ancestors named Jeconiah (Coniah) was so evil God cursed him and his descendants from ever sitting on the throne of David, Matthew 1:1-17; Jeremiah 22:24-30; 1 Chronicles 3:17. This doesn't mean that Joseph was evil, but means none of his children could ever sit on the throne of David.

This is the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, and father-in-law of Joseph. He is in the royal line of King David (Luke 3:23).

The KJV, NKJV, ESV, and NIV spell his name “Heli.” The NASB and some others spell it as “Eli.”

Mary, mother of Jesus ← Heli (Eli/Helix) ← Matthat ← Levi ← Melchi ← Janna (Jannai) ← Joseph ← Mattathiah (Mattathias) ← Amos ← Nahum ← Esli ← Naggai ← Maath ← Mattathiah (Mattathias) ← Semei (Semein) ← Joseph (Yosef/Josech) ← Judah (Juda, Joda) ← Joannas (Joanna) ← Rhesa ← Zerubbabel ← Shealtiel ← Neri ← Melchi ← Addi ← Cosam ← Elmodam ← Er ← Jose (Joshua, Jesus) ← Eliezer ← Jorim ← Matthat ← Levi ← Simeon ← Judah ← Joseph ← Jonan ← Eliakim ← Melea ← Menan (Menna) ← Mattathah ← Prince Nathan ← KING DAVID

ALSO SEE


Luke 3:23-38 Jesus lineage through Mary being His mother. Joseph was not His biological father.

Mary was of the tribe of Judah as Elizabeth lineage is through Aaron which made them cousins.


Mary’s father was Heli (Eli) who was a direct descendant of King David which gave Jesus the right to ascend the Jewish throne, both through Mary and through adoption by his foster father, Joseph.

Mary’s genealogy is supplied in Luke 3:23-38. Dr. Henry Morris explains how we know this genealogy is Mary’s:

“Joseph was clearly the son of Jacob (Matthew 1:16, so this verse [Luke 3:23—says “son of Heli”] should be understood to mean “son-in-law of Heli.” Thus, the genealogy of Christ in Luke is actually the genealogy of Mary, while Matthew gives that of Joseph. Actually, the word “son” is not in the original, so it would be legitimate to supply either “son” or “son-in-law” in this context. Since Matthew and Luke clearly record much common material, it is certain that neither one could unknowingly incorporate such a flagrant apparent mistake as the wrong genealogy in his record. As it is, however, the two genealogies show that both parents were descendants of David—Joseph through Solomon (Matthew 1:7-15), thus inheriting the legal right to the throne of David, and Mary through Nathan (Luke 3:23-31), her line thus carrying the seed of David, since Solomon’s line had been refused the throne because of Jechoniah’s sin” [Dr. Henry

Who is MARY, THE MOTHER OF JESUS? - WebBible Encyclopedia - ChristianAnswers.Net

christiananswers.net

 

[Hopeful 2]

does obedience cause righteousness or does righteousness cause obedience?

That is the question!

The answer is..."YES" !
They are inseparable.

 

[for_his_glory]

I can't agree with the last paragraph.
It seems to me that born again persons still sin.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Notice this verse says past sins. Only our past sins have been forgiven as we come to the grace of God by faith that is Christ Jesus who has washed our past sins away by His blood we are made righteous before God again.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If we are walking in the Spirit we are not going to wilfully sin. But, yet all of us fall short at times as none of us have been perfected yet for this corruptible flesh must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality and that does not happen until the return of Christ when we are then changed as there will never be any sin or evil that can dwell in the New Jerusalem, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58.

There is no such teaching about sinless perfection as it is only our past sins that have been forgiven and remembered no more.

 

[donadams]

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

[GodsGrace]

Source for the four laws would be campus crusade for Christ

I think Campus Crusade for Christ is a protestant movement.
The four laws you mentioned are valid for both Protestantism and Catholicism.
Except for a few doctrine that I find very difficult to believe (although I know why the CC believes them) I find that we mostly agree on all the important teachings.

When you mention Mary in cases like this, I believe you're doing the CC a dissservice.
The reason being that I STILL don't understand why you brought this up.

My belief (which isn't worth much) is that Protestants do not venerate Mary enough,
and Catholics venerate her too much. I don't know how we could possibly know that Mary ascended into heaven - not that it cannot be, it is possible. But to ask it's laity to embrace this dogma goes beyond what I personally can do.

I think it would behoove your OPs to stick to the subject that you present.

This one being a very good one that could have remained in the Theology Forum.

 

[GodsGrace]

But it says obedience is a cause of righteousness

Yes. I know what you mean.
It's like a chicken and an egg dilemma, kind of.

We obey God because we have love for Him and have become spiritually born again.
But....after this occurs, we are REQUIRED to obey God.

If a person is not born again, he cannot be saved even if he follows the 10 commandments because of ethics, or morality, or whatever reason he may have. Some people are just good people.

But even a good person, if he does not believe and worship God, how will he ever end up spending eternity with God?

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


So, yes, I do believe the Christian faith teaches that we are to HAVE FAITH
And
OBEY GOD.

In that order...

 

[donadams]

I think Campus Crusade for Christ is a protestant movement.
The four laws you mentioned are valid for both Protestantism and Catholicism.
Except for a few doctrine that I find very difficult to believe (although I know why the CC believes them) I find that we mostly agree on all the important teachings.

When you mention Mary in cases like this, I believe you're doing the CC a dissservice.
The reason being that I STILL don't understand why you brought this up.

My belief (which isn't worth much) is that Protestants do not venerate Mary enough,
and Catholics venerate her too much. I don't know how we could possibly know that Mary ascended into heaven - not that it cannot be, it is possible. But to ask it's laity to embrace this dogma goes beyond what I personally can do.

I think it would behoove your OPs to stick to the subject that you present.

This one being a very good one that could have remained in the Theology Forum.

Mary did not ascend into heaven.

I was doing a comparison between the four spiritual laws and what lk 1:28 says about Mary, and how it is only the immaculate conception that makes it possible
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Yes. I know what you mean.
It's like a chicken and an egg dilemma, kind of.

We obey God because we have love for Him and have become spiritually born again.
But....after this occurs, we are REQUIRED to obey God.

If a person is not born again, he cannot be saved even if he follows the 10 commandments because of ethics, or morality, or whatever reason he may have. Some people are just good people.

But even a good person, if he does not believe and worship God, how will he ever end up spending eternity with God?

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


So, yes, I do believe the Christian faith teaches that we are to HAVE FAITH
And
OBEY GOD.

In that order...

Good works are not salutary or meritorious unless done in Christ soaked in His grace Jn 15:5 apart from me (in the new covenant of grace) we can do nothing, even though the works are commendable like feeding the hungry they must be preceded by grace, and soaked in grace, by members of Jesus Christ in union with him.

Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

Mary did not ascend into heaven.

Correct. She was assumed into heaven.
The Assumption.

I'm not convinced of that either.
Not that it matters what I'm convinced of or not.

I was doing a comparison between the four spiritual laws and what lk 1:28 says about Mary, and how it is only the immaculate conception that makes it possible
Thanks

How does the IC make it possible?

 

[GodsGrace]

Good works are not salutary or meritorious unless done in Christ soaked in His grace Jn 15:5 apart from me (in the new covenant of grace) we can do nothing, even though the works are commendable like feeding the hungry they must be preceded by grace, and soaked in grace, by members of Jesus Christ in union with him.

Thanks

Amen to that.

 

[donadams]

Correct. She was assumed into heaven.
The Assumption.

I'm not convinced of that either.
Not that it matters what I'm convinced of or not.


How does the IC make it possible?

Because she was preserved in advance in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ by grace